From: dreitzes@aol.com (Dreitzes)
Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk
Subject: Lt. Edward O'Donnell on Perry Russo
Date: 13 Feb 1999 08:27:37 -0600
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 424
Sender: jmcadams@able.comm.net
Approved: jmcadams@execpc.com
Message-ID: <19990213015926.04249.00000860@ng43.aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Status: O
NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.254.157.40
Path: mcadams.posc.mu.edu!able.comm.net!not-for-mail

17	LT. EDWARD O'DONNELL,
18	having been first duly sworn by the Minute Clerk,
19	was examined and testified as follows:
20	DIRECT EXAMINATION
21	BY MR. DYMOND:
22	Q	Lieutenant, if you will bend the microphone up
23			towards your face a little, then you will
24			be able to speak right into the end of it.
25			For the record, Lieutenant O'Donnell, would
Page 5
1			you please state your full name.
2	A	My name is Edward Mark O'Donnell.
3	Q	What is your occupation, sir?
4	A	Police Officer, Lieutenant, Assistant Command-
5			ing Officer, Homicide Division, New
6			Orleans Police Department.
7	Q	How long have you been affiliated with the New
8			Orleans Police Department?
9	A	Seventeen years.
10	Q	Lieutenant O'Donnell, on or about June 19,
11			1967, did you have occasion to have a
12			conversation with Perry Raymond Russo?
13	A	Yes, I did.
14	Q	During the course of your conversation, did
15			you ask him why he had testified as he
16			did at the preliminary hearing which was
17			conducted in this proceeding?
18	A	Yes, I did.
19		MR. ALCOCK:
20			What page are you on, Mr. Dymond?
21		MR. DYMOND:
22			Page 449.
23	BY MR. DYMOND:
24	Q	Did he give you an answer to that question,
25			Lieutenant?
Page 6
1	A	Yes, he did.
2	Q	What explanation did he give you?
3	A	He stated that he had all intentions that when
4			he came into the Court for the preliminary
5			hearing he was going to tell the truth,
6			that when he got here and you started talk-
7			ing to him and asked him questions, you
8			turned him on, particularly when you got
9			to the point when you asked him about did
10			he believe in God, and he explained that
11			this was a sensitive area with him, and to
12			quote his own words, you turned him on,
13			and he had at this time decided that he
14			was going to bury you.
15	Q	Bury me?
16	A	Bury you.
17	Q	During that same conversation, Lieutenant
18			O'Donnell, did Perry Russo express any de-
19			sire to know the entirety of Mr. Garrison's
20			case against Mr. Shaw?
21	A	Yes, he did.
22	Q	Did he give you any reason for wanting to know
23			the rest of the case?
24	A	Yes.
25	Q	What was that, sir?
Page 7
1	A	He asked me if I could let him see the case
2			which Mr. Garrison had against Mr. Shaw,
3			and I asked him for what reason, and he
4			said if he could see what kind of case
5			Mr. Garrison had, it would help him to
6			arrive at a decision to determine whether
7			or not Mr. Shaw was involved in this
8			particular matter, and I told Perry Russo
9			that the only way he should arrive at this
10			decision is to examine his own conscience
11			and determine what the truth is, and then
12			arrive at a decision, that he should not
13			have to lean on the investigation, what
14			Mr. Garrison has or does not have.
15	Q	Now, did you make these facts known to the
16			District Attorney's Office?
17	A	Immediately after this interview with Perry
18			Russo, I went upstairs and I spoke with
19			Mr. Garrison and Mr. Alcock and I made this
20			information pertaining to this interview
21			to them available, to them, in fact I told
22			them what happened, and the following day
23			I made a typewritten report and I brought
24			this upstairs to Mr. Garrison and gave him
25			a copy of it.
Page 8
1		MR. DYMOND:
2			We tender the witness.
3	CROSS-EXAMINATION
4	BY MR. ALCOCK:
5	Q	Lieutenant O'Donnell, did you make a tape
6			recording of this interview with Perry
7			Russo?
8	A	No.
9		THE COURT:
10			You may proceed.
11	BY MR. ALCOCK:
12	Q	Did you make a tape recording of this interview
13			with Perry Russo?
14	A	No.
15	Q	When you were in the District Attorney's office
16			in the presence of Mr. Barnes, Mr. Russo
17			and Jim Garrison and Mr. Sciambra, did
18			you repeatedly tell Perry Russo that you
19			had made a tape of it?
20	A	I asked him if he would like to hear a tape
21			play-back of our conversation because at
22			that time Perry Russo had denied that he
23			ever told me that Clay Shaw was not at
24			Dave Ferrie's apartment, and I told Perry
25			Russo at that time "Would you like to hear
Page 9
1			a tape of our conversation" in an effort
2			to reenforce Perry Russo into admitting
3			the truth, not admitting the truth, but
4			admitting to what he told me when I inter-
5			viewed him, and then I was in your office
6			on that occasion Perry Russo had done a
7			double take and denied that he ever told
8			me this.
9	Q	Did you repeatedly say that you had a tape re-
10			cording of this conversation and he asked
11			you "Let me hear the tape"?
12	A	I asked him if he would like to hear the tape,
13			and I don't have any tape.  In fact, Mr.
14			Sciambra asked me the same question --
15			excuse me, before I left your office that
16			afternoon, I told Mr. Sciambra I did not
17			have any tapes.
18	Q	Why did you keep asking Mr. Russo if he wanted
19			to hear the tapes?
20	A	 I don't know how many times I asked him.
21	Q	Why did you keep asking him that if you didn't
22			have any tape?
23	A	I just explained why.
24	Q	But you had no tape.  Is that correct?
25	A	That is correct.
Page 10
1	Q	How many reports did you make up of this con-
2			versation?
3	A	Oh, how many reports or how many copies of a
4			report?
5	Q	Well, how many copies?
6	A	Four, five.
7	Q	Four or five copies?
8	A	Yes.
9	Q	How many copies did you give to the District
10			Attorney's Office?
11	A	I believe I gave them one copy.
12	Q	Where is the original, where is the original
13			now?
14	A	The Chief of Police should have it.
15	Q	And how many copies do you have?
16	A	I have one copy.
17	Q	One copy?
18	A	Yes.
19	Q	Where are the other copies?
20	A	The Chief of Detectives should have one also.
21	Q	Where are the rest of them?
22	A	Excuse me?
23	Q	Where are the rest of the copies?
24	A	If that is four, I don't have any other copies.
25	Q	Well, do you have a copy or not, Lieutenant?
Page 11
1	A	Do I have one?  Yes, I have one.
2	Q	You have one copy?
3	A	Yes.
4	Q	And you gave one to the District Attorney's
5			office?
6	A	Yes.
7	Q	And Chief Giarusso has a copy or the original?
8	A	I don't know if you got the original or whether
9			the Superintendent got the original.
10	Q	Now, who else did you give a copy to?
11	A	The Chief of Detectives.
12	Q	Who is that, Morris?
13	A	Yes.
14	Q	Now, to whom else did you give a copy?
15	A	No one else.
16	Q	No one else?
17	A	No.
18	Q	Did you give a copy to anyone else?
19	A	No one else.
20	Q	You gave one copy to Chief Giarusso, one copy
21			to Major Morris, and you have a copy.  Is
22			that correct?
23	A	That is correct.  Now, you have a copy.
24	Q	And we have a copy.
25	A	Correct.
Page 12
1	Q	And you don't know where the original is?
2	A	Either I gave you the original or the
3			Superintendent has the original.
4	Q	Now, you stated on direct examination that
5			Perry Russo said he was going to tell
6			the truth until, as you termed it, Mr.
7			Dymond turned him on.  Is that correct?
8	A	This is what Perry Russo told me, yes.
9	Q	He said the truth?
10	A	Yes.
11	Q	Is that in your memorandum?
12	A	Oh, I can check my memo, I have a copy in my
13			pocket.
14	Q	Take a look at it, about the middle of Page 2.
15	A	You want me to read that part?
16	Q	No, is the word "truth" in there as you testi-
17			fied to?
18	A	No, it is not.
19		MR. DYMOND:
20			If the Court please, we will ask that
21				portion of it be read.  I think if
22				there is a synonym for "truth" in
23				there, this Jury is entitled to know
24				about it.
25		THE COURT:
Page 13
1			But I can't tell him how to conduct his
2				examination.  He asked him for a
3				very specific wording, not for a
4				synonym.  I overrule the objection.
5	BY MR. ALCOCK:
6	Q	Is it a fact that during your conversation
7			with Perry Russo he told you about being
8			bombarded by newsmen such as Mr. Phelan,
9			Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Townley and others?
10	A	Oh, yes, during this conversation with Mr.
11			Russo he stated he was under extreme
12			pressure from the news media and from
13			Jim Garrison.
14	Q	He said Jim Garrison?
15	A	Yes.
16	Q	Is that in your report?
17	A	No, it is not.
18	Q	Why not?
19	A	It is not in there.
20	Q	Is there any reason why it is not in there?
21	A	Oh, in the report it states that he is under
22			pressure, but I did -- what he explained
23			to me, well, I asked him for an explana-
24			tion of what pressures and he explained
25			that he was under pressure from the news-
Page 14
1			papers, the magazines, television and
2			from Garrison's office.
3	Q	But you did not put that in your report?
4	A	It merely states that he stated he was under
5			pressure.
6	Q	This isn't a complete, then, account of what
7			was said on that occasion, is it?
8	A	Oh, word for word, no, it is not.
9	Q	Just the essence of what was said or the high-
10			lights of what was said?
11	A	This is the essence of what was said, that is
12			correct.
13	Q	Do you recall making this statement during
14			the interview in Mr. Garrison's office,
15			or whatever office it took place in,
16			"If necessary I will produce a tape of
17			his conversation," can you recall that?
18	A	Oh, it is possible I said that.
19	Q	How could you say that if you had no tape?
20	A	I explained my reason for that.
21	Q	Well, I would like to hear your reason.
22	A	Explain it again?
23	Q	Yes.
24	A	Because at that time Perry Russo had done a
25			retake on what he had told me in my office
Page 15
1			on June 19, while he was in my office on
2			June 19 he told me Clay Shaw was not at
3			Dave Ferrie's apartment.
4	Q	Without qualifications?
5		MR. DYMOND:
6			We are going to ask that the witness be
7				permitted to finish.
8		THE COURT:
9			You have a right to give your explanation.
10		THE WITNESS:
11			The day that you, not you, but Mr. Sciambra
12				falsely led me to come to the District
13				Attorney's Office under the pretense
14				that I was to give a test to Perry
15				Russo, when I got there this was not
16				the motive for this meeting whatso-
17				ever.  I waited approximately one
18				hour, finally Mr. Garrison and the
19				other people who worked for him came
20				into the office with Perry Russo, I
21				was invited into this office, Mr.
22				Garrison had his secretary taking
23				notes of the conversation, everything
24				that was said, and at this time Mr.
25				Garrison asked me do I have a copy of
Page 16
1				the report which I gave to him, and I
2				said "Not on me," and he said "Well,
3				I don't have my copy, one of my
4				assistants has it, he is out of town,
5				can you get me a copy," which I did,
6				I went downstairs to the Chief of
7				Detectives' office and got a copy and
8				brought it back upstairs, and Garrison
9				asked me if I would let Perry Russo
10				read my report, and I gave it to Perry
11				Russo, and after Russo read the report
12				he was asked is there anything in this
13				report that is not true, and Perry
14				Russo said "Most all of it is true,
15				except I did not tell O'Donnell that
16				Clay Shaw was not at this apartment,"
17				this was in direct conflict with what
18				Perry Russo had originally told me on
19				June 19.  In an attempt to reenforce
20				Russo into telling the same thing which
21				he told me when he and I were talking
22				by ourselves, because he had already
23				expressed a fear to me of being charged
24				with perjury by Garrison, I made that
25				statement relative to I had a tape, I
Page 17
1				do not have tapes, there was no
2				tape going in my office during the
3				conversation I had with Russo.
4	BY MR. ALCOCK:
5	Q	In other words, you were lying, you were lying
6			at the time about a tape?
7	A	Well, you have the notes of the conversation.
8			I don't know whether I said I have a tape
9			or I asked him would you like to hear a
10			tape, Mr. Garrison's secretary was there
11			taking these notes down.
12	Q	I am gong to -- I will let you read this
13			particular statement attributed to you.
14			Now, Lieutenant O'Donnell, I am going to
15			show you a document which I will ask you
16			to peruse and see if you recognize that
17			document or what is depicted in the docu-
18			ment, rather.
19	A	What is the letter "R," what does it denote
20			here, you have "G" and "R"?
21	Q	Probably Russo, O for O'Donnell, S for
22			Sciambra.
23	A	All right (witness reading statement).
24		THE COURT:
25			The witness has apparently refreshed his
Page 18
1				memory.
2			(The last question and answer was
3			ready by the Reporter.)
4	BY MR. ALCOCK:
5	Q	Have you had an opportunity, Lieutenant, to
6			read the memorandum?
7	A	Yes, I did.
8	Q	Does it refresh your memory or does it accurate-
9			ly reflect what you recall?
10	A	Oh, it is pretty close to what occurred, yes.
11	Q	Do you recall having made the statement that
12			you did in fact have a tape?
13	A	According to these notes which Mr. Garrison's
14			secretary took, if that is a transcript
15			of her notes, the notes state that I said
16			"Would you like me to produce or I could
17			produce a tape," and, as I said, I don't
18			have a tape.
19	Q	Do you recall reading on the first page, quoting
20			you, "I taped the conversation with you,"
21			do you recall making that statement?
22	A	There was something said similar to this.
23	Q	But that is not saying "I will produce a tape,"
24			that is saying you actually had a tape and
25			taped the conversation, isn't it?
Page 19
1	A	I might have said this, I have no argument
2			with that.
3	Q	Now, Lieutenant O'Donnell --
4		THE COURT:
5			Let me interrupt you just a second.  Now
6				that we have covered that particular
7				single legal item, I suspect after
8				you finish your cross-examination,
9				I suspect there may be redirect and
10				recross, so I think this is a good
11				time to take a recess. . . .

[…]


1	. . . . Pursuant to the adjournment, the
2	proceedings herein were resumed at 9:00
3	o'clock a.m. on Thursday, February 27,
4	1969, appearances being the same as hereto-
5	fore noted in the record . . . .
6		THE COURT:
7			Lieutenant O'Donnell is resuming the
8				stand.
9			Note for the record that the Defendant
10				is present, all counsel are present,
11				and I am reminding the witness that
12				his previous oath is still binding.
13			All right.  You may proceed, Mr. Alcock.
14	FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION
15	BY MR. ALCOCK:
16	Q	Lieutenant O'Donnell, can you tell us the
17			first time that you spoke to Defense
18			Counsel in this case?
19	A	Yes, sir.  I can't give you the exact day
20			but it was after the start of this trial,
21			just a few weeks ago.  I spoke with
22			Mr. Wegmann.
23	Q	And you had no contact with them through any-
24			one prior to that time, to your knowledge?
25	A	No, sir, I haven't.
Page 3
1		MR. ALCOCK:
2			No further questions.
3		MR. DYMOND:
4			That is all, Lieutenant.