Deposition before the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

United States Federal Building
U.S. Magistrate Courtroom 16-F23
1100 Commerce Street
Dallas, Texas
Monday, May 22, 1978, 9:50 a.m.
JOHN HORNBECK, Senior Staff Counsel
Select Committee on Assassinations
U. S. House of Representatives
Washington, D. C.20515
DONALD PURDY, Staff Counsel
Select Committee on Assassinations
U. S. House of Representatives
Washington, D. C.20515


JOSEPH CAMPISI was duly sworn and testified as follows:


Q. Would you state your name for the record, spelling your last name, please?
A. Joseph Campisi, C-a-m-p-i-s-i-
Q. What is your present home address, Mr- Campisi?
A. 4445 Ashford Drive, Dallas, Texas.
Q. And your present occupation is what, sir?
A. The restaurant business.
Q. What is the name of your restaurant?
A. The Egyptian Restaurant, Inc.
Q. And how long have you been associated with that particular business?
A. At that location, 28 years.
Q. Mr. Campisi, before we begin questioning in today's deposition, let me put on the record that, one, you have been sworn here today, and the deposition that we are taking is one that requires the swearing of the witness and is taken under oath. Do you understand that, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In addition to that, the court reporter is transcribing what we say today, and this transcription will then be certified by the court reporter as an accurate representation of the discussions had today. Do you also understand that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Prior to today, have you received a copy of the Committee Rules for the Select Committee on Assassinations, including the resolution of the House of Representatives establishing that committee?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any questions whatsoever with regard to the rules of the committee or with regard to the proceedings here today?
A. Well, as far as rules I don't understand it, you know.
All I'm here to do is answer the questions you ask me.
Q. Is your appearance here today to take this deposition free and voluntary on your part?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have been informed that if you desired to have counsel you could have one present?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I take it at this time your election is to proceed voluntarily without the assistance of counsel; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any questions whatsoever with regard to the proceedings today, our function, the scope of the inquiry, any questions that pertain to any of those subjects prior to our beginning?
A. Now, I don't understand that.You're asking me about, you know, what questions you are going to ask me or -- I don't --
Q. Do you have any questions about the proceedings today, that is, the taking of your statement under oath, what your rights and obligations are as a witness? Do you have any questions about those matters?
A. I don't even know how to answer it.
Q. Well, let me just explain some of the rules that pertain to the taking of a deposition.
First of all, the deposition is voluntarily given, as we have explained.
A. Yes.
Q. Secondly, you could have counsel present to assist you during the questioning.
A. Yes.
Q. Third, you have the right to refuse to answer any question on the grounds of self-incrimination. Do you understand that?
A. Yes.
Q. And, fourth, that all questions and answers that are given today are taken under oath which means they must be truthful to the best of your memory so that there would not be the criminal problem of perjury for any statement that is given willfully and untruthfully. Do you understand that?
A. Yes, I understand that.
Q. With those rights being explained to you, are there any other questions that you --
A. You asked me if I didn't want to answer a question, right, then I could refuse to answer that question?
Q. That's correct, sir.
A. Well, I don't know what questions you are going to ask me.
Q. The questions will relate to --
A. Excuse me.
Q. Sure.

A. Is everything going to be about my association with Jack Ruby? Are they going to be asked about people that I know, names and stuff like this here? Are you going to ask me about, well, do I know John Brown, and I know John Brown, do I have to answer that I know John Brown?
Q. Sir, you do not have to answer any question that you do not want to answer. We would hope that we would be able to have a cooperative session, as you have indicated before, and if you understand your rights
in that regard then we can proceed on a question to question basis and if we have an area in which there has to be some further discussion, then we can adjourn the proceedings and attempt to reach whatever accord that we can.
A. Okay.
Q. Let me begin by discussing the area of your association and knowledge with Jack Ruby. And first of all, Mr. Campisi, when did you first meet Jack Ruby?
A. In 1947.
Q. Did you meet him here in Dallas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could I ask you under what circumstances you have met Mr. Ruby?
A.I had a little bar at Main and St. Paul, and one day a fellow by the name of Milton Joseph brought Jack Ruby to my place of business and introduced me to Jack Ruby.
Q.Mr. Joseph's business or occupation was what at that time?
A.He was a jewelry salesman.
Q.And you had known him for some period of time?
Q.Was he from Dallas or from Chicago?
A.Originally from Chicago.
Q.Was it explained to you during the first meeting how Mr. Joseph came to introduce you to Mr. Ruby and how he knew Mr. Ruby?
A.He said they were friends in Chicago.
Q.Did he indicate that they had grown up together?
A.Real good friends.I don't remember them
saying grown up together, but they knew one another real well.
Q.All right.Could you tell us what was discussed during
this first meeting with Mr. Ruby?
A.He just introduced me to him at that time.I don't know whether -- he had opened the Silver Spur, a hillbilly-type joint on Ervay street, and that was all of it right there.
Q. Did Jack Ruby indicate to you why he had left Chicago and moved to Dallas?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever discuss with you his life in Chicago.
A. No.
Q. Did he ever discuss with you the fact that he had been in a union in Chicago prior to coming to Dallas?
A. No.
Q. Jack Ruby had a sister in Dallas by the name of Eva Grant?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know Mrs. Grant?
A. I had met her after they had the place, the Las Vegas Club, and probably seen her two or three times in all of the times after I met her.
Q. I take it you met Jack Ruby before you met Eva Grant; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. When you first met Jack Ruby did he discuss with you the fact that he was also interested in going into a club business?
A. Well, he was already in the club business when I met him, the Silver Spur.
Q. Did he ask you for any advice?
A. No.

Q. Or any assistance?
A. No.
Q. What kind of acts, entertainment, did Jack Ruby have during the first club, the Silver Spur?
A. It was a hillbilly place.I might have been in it one time.I think I was there one time.I don't remember.One time.
Q. You say hillbilly.Did they have bands, live entertainment?
A. I think so.Hillbilly in type.It was a rough part of town.
Q. Apparently Mr. Ruby was also involved in a club, Bob Wills Ranch House with a fellow by the name of Hyman Fader.
A. Does that particular club or the name of Hyman Fader sound familiar to you?
A. I think that -- I don't know. I knew that Hy Fader had the Longhorn Club where he booked big named bands in there.
Now whether Jack Ruby was part of it, I don't recall.
Q. You never had any discussions with Mr. Fader or Mr. Ruby regarding their business partnership?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever hear from any source that Jack Ruby had taken some money from Mr. Fader in some business practice?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you remember hearing any discussion of any kind of animosity between those two individuals?
A. They might have had some misunderstanding through business dealings. I really don't know.You know, it's been so long back, you know.
Q. Is there something that strikes your memory from that question that there may have been some ill-feeling between the two men?
A. There might have been some little jealousy afterwards, yes.
Q. You indicated that you first met Jack Ruby in 1947 when he moved from Chicago. Did he ever discuss with you people that he knew in Chicago, drop names with you of people that he knew in Chicago, anything like that?
A. No, not that I recall.He might have done it but I don't recall it.
Q. I guess the question gets to the kind of individual that Mr. Ruby was in some areas, and there have been allegations that Jack Ruby would discuss his Chicago days with people at his club and he would discuss famous names of people that he knew in Chicago with patrons and friends. I was wondering if that had occurred with you.
A. I don't remember.I really don't.
Q. From the period of 1947, continuing on through the end of 1963, did you continue to know Jack Ruby and to speak with Jack Ruby?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you tell us the nature of the contacts that you had with him?
A. I would -- After he had opened the Las Vegas Club, I had been over maybe two or three times, and on Friday nights he had amateur hours, and I worked on Friday nights and I always told Jack I couldn't come over. He said, you know, it was a late show, and so one night we went over, my wife and sisters and sister-in-law. They all used to go over there and have a good time because he was funny, and I enjoyed him because he was a little dizzy.
Q. When you say he was funny, did he act as the Master of Ceremonies in his club?
A. Yes.
Q. And put on some kind of an act that way?
A. Yes.If someone got out of line he would go over there and take care of it himself.
Q. There have been some statements that Jack Ruby was quick to stem any kind of trouble in his club.
A. Right.
Q. Did you personally witness some of those kinds of incidents?
A. Two of them.
Q. Could you describe them for us?
A. The night we went over to see the amateur hour, we come in the front door and we sat right at the front table, and there was a boy by the name of Frankie Totorella and a boy by the name of --

THE REPORTER: Frankie who, sir? Could you
spell the last name?
THE WITNESS: Totorella.
THE REPORTER: Do you know how to spell that?
MR. HORNBECK: T-o-t-o-r-e-l-l-a.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Yeah.And a boy by the name of J. C. Adams who is deceased now.
Q. And we sat there, and they were friends of Jack and so he come over and he says, "I am giving an afterhour party, selling tickets for $5.00."
A. And I was sitting like here (indicating), and Frankie is sitting here (indicating) and J.C. was sitting where you are sitting (indicating).
Q. All right.Because we have a record and because the record does not display the pictures of what you said, let me state that you have indicated that Frankie was sitting next to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And J. C. was sitting next to Frankie?
A. No.Across the table.
Q. Across the table?
A. Yeah.
Q. And who was sitting next to Frankie on your extreme left?
A. I was sitting at the first chair (indicating).
Q. On the left?
A. And Frankie was in the middle and J.C. was sitting on the side. So Jack comes over and says, "I am selling tickets for an after-hour party for one of the girls who is pregnant," or something, "and they are $5.00." We were cutting up with him.We didn't want to buy them.I bought one for five and Frankie bought one for five and J.C. bought one, and so he is out doing the show and some fellow walks by and he is inebriated and he made some remark about he didn't like Dallas because he had got a DWI. So J.C. says, "Well, sit down here, partner, and let's talk about it" because I knew they were going to , kid this drunk now. So, for some reason, they put some tickets in this drunk man's pocket.So Jack gets through with his show and he comes over and he says, "Where are the tickets," and we says, "Well, here is the money, $15.00." Frankie says, "Well, I don't have the tickets." I says, "Jack, I don't have the tickets," and J.C. says, "I don't have the tickets." He says, "Maybe this guy has the tickets." So Jack grabs this guy and takes him in the little closet where he puts clothes, and he finds the tickets in this guy's pocket, and he started beating this man.He hit the guy a couple or three times, and threw him out of his place of business.
Q. He hit him with his fists?
A. Yes.
Q. In the face or on the body?
A. He just hit him.I couldn't see him, but I knew he was fighting him back there. And that was all of that, so I says, "It is time for me to leave," and I left.
Q. Could you tell us approximately when this incident took place?
A. No, I can't.I don't even know what year it was.
Q. Could it have been in 1963 or earlier than that?
A. I can't recall the year or the date.
Q. Do you remember, though, it was at the Carousel Club?
A. No, no it wasn't.This was at the Las Vegas Club. Then another incident, we had gone to the Carousel Club one night, and of all the times he had that I was probably in his club four times, and we would go, a party of people would just go by, and Jack would always say, "Won't you come by," and we would go by and sit there. So we were sitting there, and he had this girl Jada doing the show, and the M.C. was a guy who liked to heckle and would say different things to make the public and the audience mad to where they would talk back to him. So I would say, "Well, Jack, we are going to leave.We can't enjoy the show because that boy over there is hollering and going on and we can't hear the M.C." So he would get up and go over there and tell the guy, "Now, you have got to be quiet, now."So the kid would be quiet and Jack would come back over there and say, "Is that class?"I would say, "That is class.That is the way to run a joint." So we would sit there about 20 minutes more and then say, "We are going to leave."He would say, "Why are you going to leave?" I would say, "Well, that guy." He would say, "Well, I will go over there and handle it," and he would walk over there, and, just, boom! (Demonstrating.)
Q. He would just punch him?
A. Yes.
Q. No warning?
A. No warning.Just punch him. So, one night -- it must have been 1:00, and Frankie Totorella came by and said, "Let's go up and see Jack." And we go up and he has got two dogs up there and he says, "I love these dogs." I said, "Jack", I said, "what would you do, Jack, if the dogs one morning wake up and say, 'Jack, we love you,' and he laughed about it. So we are standing there in the entryway.You had to go up the stairs to get to his place.
Q. When you say his place, are you talking the --
A. The Carousel Club. So, we looked up and here is a fellow coming up the stairs and he has got a bottle, a fifth of bourbon that he is carrying in his arms, and at that time there was a 12:00 curfew and you couldn't drink. So Jack come up and says, "Can I help you?" He says, "Yeah, I want to see the show."Jack said, "well, it's $2.00." I said, "Jack, why don't you match him double or nothing and see if it costs him two or four to get in?" Jack says, "Must I do that?" I said, "Yes, go ahead and match him." The guy is drunk, and so Jack -- the guy says, "Yeah, I will match you double or nothing-"And so the guy loses, and so he gives Jack the $4.00 and this guy takes the bottle and goes to drink it.
And when he did, Jack grabs the bottle and tells him he can't drink it there, and gave him $2.00 back, and
I said, "No, Jack, you have got to give him four."
He says, "No, he has been in," and, boom, boom, all of the way down the stairs, the bottom flight of the stairs. The guy gets up and says, "I will see you," and just goes on about his business. We stayed there about 20 minutes and we left.
Q. Both of those incidents, the individual who Jack Ruby hit was apparently first unaware that he was going to be hit, and, second, apparently not in a position to defend himself; would that be true?
A. It didn't make no difference what physical condition. He would jump on anybody. We used to tell him, "Jack, you are going to get a knife stuck in your stomach." He would go on the outside and fight young boys many a time.
Q. Would they challenge him?
A. Sure, they would.He would fight him.
Q. I take it if someone is going to be in the club business and be involved in acting as his own bouncer that at some point he is going to come in contact with the police department.
What was Jack Ruby's relationship with the police department, as far as you know?
A. They all knew Jack.He had a lot of friends.
Q. Were there many officers from the Dallas Police Department who were regular patrons of the Carousel?
A. I saw, you know, a few of them, at times I would be in the Carousel, would be up there after hours, you know, watching the show. The vice squad, you know.
Q. Approximately how many times would you say you had been to the Carousel?
A. Maybe four or five or six times.
Q. Usually with another group of individuals?
A. It would be a party of five or a party of six. We would be out somewhere else like, go to a hotel to see a show or something, and go by there after hours just to catch the show.
Q. In 1963, there were some allegations that Jack Ruby was having some problems with the union that hired acts, the strippers and musicians, and I wondered if he had ever discussed that particular union problem with you?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever heard that he had a problem with the union?
A. No.
Q. There is an indication that Jack Ruby was very interested in sporting events, football games and boxing matches in Dallas.
A. I saw Jack Ruby one time at a football game, and at the times of fights he would be there.He enjoyed being at the fights.
Q. What would he do at the fights?
A. Go around and shaking peoples' hands and meeting everybody.
Q. Can you recall what football game it was you saw him at?
A. No,I don't.
Q. Was it some major event as opposed to --
A. A Cowboy game at the Cotton Bowl.
Q. You indicated that you had seen him once with the two dogs. Were these dachshund dogs?
A. Well, I really don't know what type of dogs. He always kept them up at the club.He kept them back in the back. At the time, I think the two dogs came out he had brought them out or something, and he said that he loved the dogs, and I made the remark, "Well, Jack, what if those dogs ever said, 'Jack, we love you,' what would you do?" And he just laughed about it.You know, he thought it was funny.
Q. He appeared to have a great affection for those animals; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Jack Ruby had the kind of business in which a lot of women were entertainers and spectators and everything. What was his reputation with women as far as you were aware?
A. Well --
Q. Was he considered a ladies' man or --
A. No.He wasn't, no.He had one girlfriend, a little red-headed girl, that he had gone with for a long time, you know, and that's -- As far as me ever seeing him with any other girl, I never did.I would always see him with a red-headed girl, but I mean as far as his personal love affairs, I don't know anything about them.
Q. When he was arrested after the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack had approximately a couple of thousand dollars in cash in his pocket, and at one point there was an interview of you by the FBI and you indicated that Jack Ruby, "operated out of his hip pocket". What did you mean by that?
A. Well, I guess, he had paid, like everything he bought he probably paid cash for it, you know. Now, I don't really recall how that came about me saying about him operating out his hip pocket. Of course, they say that I said that, you know, and I don't recall ever saying that, because I didn't know too much about his business and this type of stuff here, just like I know that, you know, he collected $2.00 at the door, and how he had paid his entertainers, you know. I wasn't that close to him to know how he ran his business. At one time I said to him, I says, "It's a shame you have to stay open late hours to make a buck." I made that statement to him at one time.
Q. When you say "late hours", you indicate just within the regular hours set for the club or do you mean he had some after-hour parties?
A. Well, I mean like the Carousel Club.It was more a late hour business, and then the Las Vegas Club he kept it open until, I think, 2:00.But it wasn't no drinking-type stuff, you know.Just show time, and people went to dance and stuff.
Q. What was the Carousel Club's reputation in terms of how well it was run, how honestly it was run, whether betting went on there, prostitution went on there, any of those kinds of vice-associated activities?
A. Well, as far as betting, I don't know anything about betting going on there. I know that the talk was that maybe some of the strippers there were prostitutes, and by word of mouth I heard the vice would recognize a girl or something and they would have Jack to fire her, you know. But I mean as far as any activity of gambling, I never knew of Jack Ruby to gamble.
Q. You never knew of him to play cards?
A. No.
Q. There was a matter that we had discussed prior to the deposition in which there was a newspaper of a reporter indicating that Jack Ruby and you had played on a regular basis.
A. Never. Never. Jack Ruby was at my home one time, and he had called Johnny Ross and Brau, guys that were friends of his, and they was over and I was barbecuing steaks in the backyard, and I says, "Jack, why don't you come over; we are doing steaks." He says, "I will be right over." He comes over, and we were on the patio. He eats his steak and he says, "I have got to go, I have got to go to work," and, boom, he is gone, but the man has never been in my home to play cards. That one time, all of the time I knew Jack Ruby, was the first time he had ever been to my home.
Q. What about at any other location, did Jack Ruby ever play cards with you in any game in which you were a player or a spectator?
A. Jack Ruby has never played with me, and I have never seen Jack Ruby play cards.
Q. With regard to the prostitution aspect of the club you knowledge is, comes as a result of rumor. Any personal conversations with any member of the vice squad, anyone that worked with Jack Ruby, that would indicate he had prostitutes working at his club.
A. No. From hearsay, you know, people would say that the vice squad, and I think the vice squad helped Jack a lot. They would see a girl that was a dancer, and she was probably a known prostitute and they would tell Jack and Jack would get rid of her. Now, this is things I hears.
Q. How did Jack Ruby's club, the Carousel, compare with some of the other clubs that were operating the same kind of entertainment? Was his considered one of the better --
A. No.
Q. --strip joints?
A. No. No.
Q. How would you put the reputation of the strip joints at that time in terms of clubs that were the classier clubs?
A. Well, I mean, I wouldn't call a strip joint a classy club, and he didn't get the best clientele, you know.
Q. Who had the best entertainment of the strip joint clubs in, roughly, that period of time?
A. I think probably the Colony Club.
Q. That's Abe Weinstein?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any ill-feeling between Abe Weinstein and Jack Ruby, as far as you knew?
A. Oh, I think at one time the y were trying -- said something about Jack Ruby was trying to hire one of his girls, or something like this here, and them being neighbors I think Jack might have had a little jealousy of Abe, this type of stuff here, you know.
Q. That's the only incident you can remember?
A. That's the only thing. I think that the reason Jack went longer hours was to try to get the overflow from Abe's club, you know. Competition-type business, you know.
Q. Did Jack Ruby ever make a comment to you to the effect that he was either jealous of the Colony Club or wished he had a club like that, or a remark similar to that?
A. I think he was a little jealous of the club, you know.
Q. You also knew Abe Weinstein; is that correct?
A. For years.
Q. Was he a social friend?
A. Of Ruby's?
Q. Of yours and Jack's?
A. Oh, no. Well, I patronized his place of business for years. We were good friends. He has been to my restaurant, and I know all of his kids and everything. We were friends, but we never, business-wise or this type of stuff here.
It was just going out and enjoying his place back in the '30's. of course, when it became striptease, then that wasn't my cup of tea.
Q. We have discussed the allegation of Jack Ruby playing cards.
To your knowledge did Jack Ruby ever act as a bookie, as a runner or bet himself in any sports events?
A. Not to my knowledge, no.
Q. You have no personal knowledge to that effect nor have you ever heard any remors to the effect that Jack was involved in sports betting in any kind of way?
A. No sir.
Q. Now, on the Thursday night before the assassination of President Kennedy, Jack Ruby had dinner at the Egyptian?
A. That's what they say there. I didn't work that Saturday night. My brother worked that night. Whether Jack was there that Thursday night, I don't know.
Q. There was a statement taken from your brother indicating that along about 9:45, 10:00, Jack Ruby and Ralph Paul came in and had a steak at the restaurant.
A. Could have been. I don't recall. I don't even know whether he even took a -- did they say they took a deposition from my brother Sam?
Q. There is a report from the FBI which purports to be a conversation with your brother, yes, sir.
A. I really don't know. I read that where they said that he was there that Thursday night, but it wasn't no big discussion about it or anything, you know. I don't recall. But I saw that.
Now, you are telling me that they talked to Sam?
Q. Yes, sir, on the 11th of January, 1964, they had an interview with Sam Campisi, and that interview indicates that your brother stated, and this is in quotes, as best he recalls Ruby and Paul arrived at the restaurant between 9:45 and 10:00 p.m., had dinner there, staying some 45 minutes.
A. Uh-huh. Could have been.
Q. Did you ever discuss with your brother at that period of time whether or not Jack Ruby and Ralph Paul had been in the restaurant the night before?
A. No.
Q. He never brought that to your attention?
A. I don't remember.
Q. None of the employees at the restaurant ever brought that to your attention?
A. No. They could have, you know, but I don't recall. I don't recall.
Q. Now, a few days after Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald you paid him a visit in jail?
A. Bill Decker who was sheriff at that time had called me and said, "Joe, Jack Ruby has said he would like to see some of his best friends, closest friends."
He said, "He has your name on a list, you and Marie," who is my wife.
He says, "Would you like to come up and talk to him?"
I said, "Yeah, I would like to go up and visit the guy."
Q. Excuse me. Sheriff Decker told you that both your name and your wife's name was on that list?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he mention your brother's name was on that list?
A. No. No. So we went up and, I don't know whether it was on a Sunday or what day it was we went up.
Q. When you say "we", did your wife accompany you?
A. Yes. And so we go up and he is in a little cell, and there is a deputy sitting in the cell with him, so we stand there and walk up and say, "Hi, Jack." He says, "Hi, Joe. Hi, Marie. What are the people saying about me?'
I said, "They are not saying nothing about you."
Now, I don't whether he had said to me, but something about, he said, "Jews have got --" I think he said something about, "Well, Jews have got class. Nobody but me could do it," something like this. And so we talked, and I asked him how he felt, you know. He had just wanted to know how the people on the street, his friends, thought about what he did.
I said, "They don't think nothing," you know. And just before we left he said to me, he said, "Joe, you tell that damn Milton Joseph he is still barred out of my club." We thought that was funny.
Q. This was the original fellow who introduced you to Jack?
A. That's right. So we left. Do you want -- I am going to tell you what happened. Okay.
So we knew that he and Milton Joseph had busted over jealousy or whatever. Now, what he had got mad with Milton about, I don't know. Whether it was over him selling jewelry to one of the gals or this type of thing, overcharging, I don't know. But during the court thing when he was being tried I saw Milton Joseph and I said, "Milton," I said, "let me take you down to the courthouse." And I says, "It will be the biggest mistrial they will have down there when you walk in the courthouse because Ruby is going to jump out and jump on you."
Milton says, "Oh, I am not going down there," this type of thing and that's about all.
Q. When you indicated that Jack Ruby and Milton Joseph had broken up, are you indicating just their friendship and broken up or they had some business together or they --
A. No. No. Their friendship.
I was told -- Jack Ruby had told me at one time that when he had first met me that he thought a little big shot and he didn't like me. He had told me this later on in life, and I thought that was real funny. Then I knew that he and Milton, because Milton was -- knowing Milton Joseph, nobody liked Milton Joseph. He was -- I don't know whether you would say -- well, he was --nobody liked him. I mean, he wanted to be in the limelight, and he knew everybody, knew all of the movie stars and this type
of stuff here, you know, and he always had a pretty gal. Maybe he had just met her, whether he went with her or not, but he wanted to be the show. Now, whether this was the reason he and Ruby broke up, I don't know.But I knew that they disliked one another after that, because everybody was teasing Jack about Milton jilting him, you know, and Jack would just get mad about it. This was a funny bit to the people that knew him.
Q. Would this have been like in the '50s er '60s? How long had their animosity been going on; could you estimate that?
A. Oh, it might have started for about a month or so -- I think it was in the '50s.
Q. Now, again, going back to the FBI report, there is an indication of an interview with you on December 7th of 1963 following your conversation with Jack Ruby in jail. One thing I noticed in the interview is that there is no mention that your wife was present with you at the jail. Do you recall whether or not the FBI agents asked you who had accompanied you or whether you told them --
A. I think I told them that me and my wife went there.I didn't have nothing to hide.
Q. Again, I am going to ask you about a couple of comments that are reflected on this interview sheet, and ask you first of all, whether or not you made that particular statement concerning your conversation with Jack Ruby and then whether or not you recall that statement and whether or not there was anymore said that now, perhaps, refreshes your memory.
The first statement, you indicated, and I will quote, that Ruby told you that he had received a lot of mail, and commented that all of the girls love me.
First of all, did you make that statement to the FBI, or do you remember making that statement?
A. I don't remember it.Really, I don't.
Q. Do you remember now as we are having our discussion whether or not Jack Ruby made some kind of a comment about receiving a lot of mail and that all of the girls loved him?
A. I don't really what all the conversation was about, you know, at that time.It was so fast, you know.
Q. You do recall that Jack Ruby was concerned about what his friends were saying about on the street?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he indicate to you the reason that he wanted to see you and your wife was to get some reading from various friends of his on the street as to how the situation was?
A. I don't know.He indicated that he wanted to ask Mr. Decker that he have some his people, you know, that he was close to, to visit him. Now whoever else visited him, I don't know.
Q. There was also the statement in the FBI interview of December 7th, 1963 that Ruby asked you if his friends were mad at him and asked you your opinion of the lawyer he had retained. Do recall anything like that?
A. No,I don't.
Q. The first attorney who represented Jack Ruby was Tom Howard. Did you know Tom Howard?
A. I knew Tom Howard, yes.
Q. What kind of a lawyer was Mr. Howard in terms of his practice specialty?
A. Well, I think at the time he was a pretty good criminal lawyer at that time.
Q. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Howard how he came to represent Jack Ruby, any information about their legal relationship?
A. No.
Q. I take it Mr. Howard has never represented you in any matter that you were concerned with?
A. I have never had a lawyer to represent me up until about four years ago in a lawsuit that I was in. That was the first money I ever spent on lawyers.
Q. You are a lucky man.
There is also an indication that during the time that you were talking to Jack Ruby he broke down and cried.
A. I think he did cry a little bit, yes.
Q. Before we go into the comment that occasioned the crying, was crying something that would have surprised you about Jack Ruby, or was he an emotional type of person so that you would not be surprised?
A. I would, you know, think that he was feeling sorry for himself, you know.
Q. Well, my question goes to what kind of an emotional, state Jack Ruby was capable of reaching. For instance, you have indicated in his club that he apparently had a very quick temper.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. With regard to either laughing or crying was he fairly quick to change moods?
A. He was quick to hit somebody, you know.I had never seen him cry.That was the first time, you know, that we saw him cry. Now, whether he was crying there because we were there, you know, and he considered us his friends, and my respect and my wife, you know. He felt sorry for himself, you know.
Q. Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby had visits from any other friends before you and your wife were able to go there?
A. No, I don't
Q. He didn't mention any other people, any mutual acquaintances of yours coming in to see him?
A. No.
Q. Again, relating the particular crying incident to a comment, according to the FBI statement, the quote that you ascribe to Jack Ruby is, "Here I am fighting for my life and feeling sorry for myself when I really feel sorry for Mrs. Kennedy and the kids."
A. Yes, I think he did say that.
Q. You have a definite memory now here of that particular comment?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he elaborate on that at all, any other information that you can recall that he might have stated in relation to that particular comment? A.I think that is about all he said on that part of it.
I do remember him saying something like that to us.
Q. Did he mention President Kennedy at all or was the comment just about Mrs. Kennedy and the kids?
A. Just like what you have said about, you know, Mrs. Kennedy and the kids.
Of course, you know, he was more excited at that time. I didn't know what he was going to say, you know. He was emotional, and then he started crying.
Q. At any time before this interview with Jack Ruby in jail did you and Jack ever discuss President Kennedy and how he felt or you felt one way or the other?
A. No.
Q. He had never mentioned this to you?
A. No, sir.
Q. How would you characterize Jack Ruby in terms of whether or not he was extremely patriotic or extremely interested in politics, whether he cared at all or did not care, any indication to you over the years you knew him as to how he felt about politics at all?
A. No, sir.No, sir.I never discussed anything like that with him.
Q. Did you ever discuss politics or anything like that?
A. No, sir.
Q. There is also a statement, again contributed to your conversation with Jack Ruby on December the 7th, in which the statement is alleged that you said that Jack told you that somebody had to kill Oswald. Was there some statement like that?
A. He might have made a statement about -- I don't know whether he said -- he said, "Well, nobody but me could do it," something like that.Something like that, you know. I don't remember the words it was, you know, and he might have said to me, "Nobody but Jack Ruby could do it," or something like that, you know.
Q. He didn't put that in any kind of a context?
A. No.
Q. You had mentioned, I think, in previous testimony that Jack Ruby had said something about either Jews have guts or something to that effect, and that "No one but me could do it."
A. Jews have class or something like that.
Q. Class?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you think those two statements could have been together or do you --
A. I really don't recall, no.
Q. The last sentence in this particular interview is the statement attributed to you in which the FBI said that you stated your last contact with Ruby was on Thursday night before Thanksgiving when Ruby came to the Egyptian restaurant for a steak.
A. I don't remember.You know, I just don't recall that far back whether he was there that night.
Q. I thought you had mentioned something before that you perhaps had not worked that particular evening.
A. Thursday night, no.I worked Mondays -- no. I worked Tuesdays and Wednesdays.I worked Friday nights. I think Sam worked Thursday nights. In fact, I am still doing the same thing I have been doing for 28 years, but during that conversation about him that he was there, I don't recall whether he was there.If he had been there, I think that we would have talked about it, and I don't even recall talking about it. I was surprised when I saw that.I just don't remember..
Q. Did Jack Ruby ask you or your wife to come back and visit him again?
A. I don't recall him asking me that.
Q. Did you or your wife come back and see Jack again after that first time?
A. No, we didn't, because the FBI, after that then the FBI was there, and I think maybe -- I don't know what day they came back and asked me about had I been up there, and I said,"Yeah."
Q. During Jack Ruby's trial, did you ever attend any portion of his trial?
A. I think one day I stood back in the back, just one day. Not too long.Just in there, and then I left.
Q. Was there any indication from people that you knew about how Jack Ruby's trial was going or what the status of that trial was going to be, the outcome of that trial was going to be?
A. I don't recall.
Q. There was another individual that apparently Jack Ruby requested to see by the name Prestridge. Did you know Marvin Ralph Prestridge?
A. Now, there is a Marvin -- I knew another kid named Ralph Presley.Now, whether his first name is Marvin, all I knew him by was Ralph Presley.
Q. I am talking about a Prestridge, p-r-e-s-t-r-i-d-g-e.
A. It could be the same party, yeah.
Q. How did you know this Ralph Prestridge?
A. How did I know him?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I finally met him at the restaurant, and I think at that time he was supposed to have been Loyce Green's nephew.

Q. So approximately when would it have been that you met him?
A. I don't remember.
Q. And how long did you know the man, how many years?
A. From the time I met him.I know him now, you know.
Q. Do you have any indication whether or not he and Jack Ruby knew each other, were associated in any kind of a business way?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you and Ralph Prestridge ever associated in any kind of business way?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever contribute any money to Jack Ruby's defense?
A. No, sir.

Q. In 1959 Jack Ruby apparently made a trip to Cuba. Did you have any knowledge of his going to Cuba?
A. I had heard he had gone to Cuba.

Q. Can you tell us how it was you heard that information?
A. I think at that time a fellow by the name of McWillie was working over there, and a boy by the name of R. D. Matthews, and Jack Ruby went over to -- I don't know whether McWillie invited him to go over there, you know, but I knew he had been over there.
Q. Who did you get the information from that Jack Ruby went to Cuba?
A. Just street talk.
Q. Did you know Mr. McWillie before he went to Cuba?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how did you know him?
A. He was in the gambling business.
Q. How about Mr. Matthews, how did you know him?

A. I went to school with him.

Q. Was he also in the gambling business?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long had Mr. McWillie and Mr. Matthews been in Cuba; do you recall?
A. I don't know.
Q. When Jack Ruby returned from that particular visit did you have any conversation with him about what kind of time he had, who he saw there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever discuss with him or with anyone of the fact of his visit to Cuba?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know an individual by the name of Tony Zoppi?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you known Mr. Zoppi and in what context have you know him?
A. I knew him when he was with the Morning News, and he did one of the night scene things.He gave us quite a few write-ups in the paper, you know. He used to come to the place with his wife and his kids to eat and everything, and then he went to Vegas and went to work for the Riviera.
Q. Did you ever discuss Jack Ruby with Tony Zoppi?
A. Yeah, we talked about he is crazy, and he said, "Yeah, Jack is crazy," and we would laugh about it, you know.
Q. Was this a discussion or series of discussions in Dallas --
A. No.
Q. -- or was this after he went to Las Vegas?
A. No. Something come up about Jack Ruby, and I would say something to Zoppi like, "He is crazy," and Zoppi would say, "Yeah, he is crazy," and Zappi would laugh and say, "Yeah, he is crazy."
Q. These were conversations in which --
A. These were before the assassination thing, you know.
Q. Now, Mr. McWillie and Mr. Matthews are also in Las Vegas;
is that right?
A. I know that R.D. is out there, Mr. Matthews.
Q. Have you ever seen Mr. McWillie in Las Vegas?

A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us approximately when?
A. About two years ago.About two years ago.
Q. And where did you see him?

A. At the Horseshoe. He was working in the blackjack pit.
Q. That is Mr. Binyon's club?
A. Yeah.
Q. Were you also an acquaintance or friend of Mr. Binyon?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you first know him and in what context did you know him?
A. I have known of the name Binyon ever since I was a kid, but I don't ever recall ever meeting Mr. Binyon here. I knew of the name and he knew of me, you know, through other people that knew me, and I don't know whether I ever met Mr. Binyon here in Dallas or not. I think I finally met him out in Vegas.
Q. Approximately how long ago, do you recall?
A. Oh, fifteen years ago.
Q. Mr. Matthews is now working for Mr. Binyon?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any idea how that came about that Mr. Matthews went out there to work for him?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who did Mr. Matthews work for in Cuba; do you have any idea?
A. I don't know the hotel, you know.He always said something about some guy by the name of Santos. Somebody. I don't know.
Q. Trafficante?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does that name sound familiar to you?
A. Yes, sir. MR. HORNBECK:That's T-r-a-f-f-i-c-a-n-t-e. BY MR. HORNBECK:
Q. Can you tell us what .Mr. Matthews told you about Mr. Trafficante?Did he say he worked for him?
A. Yes, he said he worked for him, that he was a good man and treated him good, and this is about all.
Q. Did he say how it was that he first went down to Cuba from Dallas?
A. No, sir.I didn't know he had gone there until after he had left, after he was there for a long time.
Q. So McWillie went there and Matthews went there. Were there any other people who went to Cuba at about that same time period that you knew or were associated with in any way?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Matthews say that he had worked with Mr. Trafficante in Vegas or strictly in Cuba?
A. No, sir.Cuba.
Q. What did he indicate was his line of work in Cuba for Mr. Trafficante?
A. Probably working in a casino, I guess, you know.
Q. He never mentioned to you which casino it was that he worked in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he indicate to you that Mr. Trafficante had hired him or he had known Mr. Trafficante before he went to Cuba?
ANo, sir.
Q. He just never gave you details?
A. I never did talk to him about it?
Q. Did you ever mention the name of Santos with Jack Ruby?
A. No, sir.
Q. And I take it he had never mentioned that to you?
A. No, sir.
Q. In the first interview with the FBI immediately following Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Oswald, the FBI asked you whether or not Jack Ruby was involved in bookmaking or placing bets, and according to the FBI statement you indicated that Ruby was associated with certain gamblers, but you didn't know --
A. Well, he knew everybody just like I know everybody, you know.
Q. Let me just ask you about some of the names that are particularly referenced in the FBI report. The first name is Johnny Ross Patrono.

A. Yes, he knew Johnny Ross.
Q. What was Mr. Patrono's business or livelihood?
A. Well, he worked for his daddy in the meat business for a long time as a kid, and then when the town was open he worked as a dealer when he was 13 years old, and I think one time he might have been doing a little bookmaking, you know.

Q. When you say when the town was open, what do you mean?
A. When they had gambling here.
Q. Approximately when was that?
A. '44-'45.
Q. Just at the end of the war years?
A. Yeah.Well, when Will Wilson became District Attorney, why, the town got closed up.
Q. In approximately 1947 there were a group of people who came to Dallas from Chicago, and there was a trial approximately in 1947-1948, in which a couple of people were convicted for attempting to bribe the sheriff at that time, Steve Guthrie.
A. Yes.Steve Guthrie.
Q. One of the individuals in that trial who was convicted was a fellow by the name of Paul Roland Jones.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know that individual?
A. Just, you know, during the time all of the stuff, all during that when it all started, you know, that I had met him, and I think they came out to the restaurant to eat or something. I didn't know anything about his background or anything.
Q. Did you ever see Mr. Jones and Jack Ruby together?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Did you ever hear that Jack Ruby and Paul Roland Jones were acquainted?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you have any contact with Paul Roland Jones other than him coming to the restaurant?
A. No, sir.
Q. There was no gambling with Mr. Jones, no betting with Mr. Jones?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nothing of that sort at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. According to the transcript of that particular trial, the tape recordings involved Jones and a few other people from Chicago discussing with Sheriff Guthrie and someone from the Dallas Police Department the fact that they would bring in some of the syndicate people from Chicago to take over Dallas. Did you hear from any people that you were acquainted with on the street any such kind of movement by anyone from the Chicago syndicate into Dallas?
A. Just what I read in the paper about what was going on.
Q. Was there any discussion by any of the people in the gambling business at the time as to whether or not they would permit anyone from Chicago to come into the town or they would not permit it?
A. No.
Q. In 1947 and 1948, after the election of Steve Guthrie, and the attitude of the Dallas Police Department, was the town open or closed in terms of --
A. In '47?
Q. '47-'48, in terms of availability of being able to gamble freely or not?
A. No.I think after '46 when Will Wilson, when all, you know, -- well, what dice games they had were closed, and that was it.
Q. One of the other individuals mentioned in the report is a fellow by the name of Bobby Chapman.
A. Bobby Joe Chapman.He is a bookmaker.
Q. How long have you known Mr. Chapman?
A. Oh, the name, 30 years. I finally met Bobby 25 years ago.
Q. You have known him, I take it, since that period of time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long has he been a bookmaker?
A. I guess all of his life.
Q. Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby and Bobby Chapman were personally acquainted?
A. Oh, he knew like I knew him, you know.I don't think they were real close, this type of stuff here. Just like everybody knew Jack Ruby.
Q. You have no information that Jack Ruby ever placed any bets through Mr. Chapman?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Matthews is another individual mentioned, and we have discussed Mr. Matthews. One question that we didn't discuss is whether or not you had seen Mr. Matthews in Las Vegas other than at the Horseshoe Club. I think you indicated you had seen him there.
A. I seen him at the Horseshoe and at the golf course.He would come over and visit and we would have drinks with him.We would be at one of the other hotels and he would come over?
Q. Do you still maintain contact with Mr. Matthews?
A. Oh, yes.When I go out there I see him.Like the other day we were out there at a golf tournament and he came over to the hotel and invited us to come over to eat and everything. We never did go over there and eat.After we would get through playing golf we were tired, and they had cocktail parties for the thing, you know, and we just didn't have time to go over there.
Q. Was this some kind of a tournament?
A. Golf tournament, yes.
Q. Do you play in tournaments regularly?
A. Love it.

Q. Was this a particular one?
A. The one that the Sahara puts on.It's their anniversary-type of thing where everybody is invited, you know.First class.
Q. Another individual that's mentioned is Jimmy Vouris, V-o-u-r-i-s-
A. Yes.He knew Jack Ruby just like I knew him.

Q. What was Mr. Vouris's, what was his business or occupation?
A. Restaurant.
Q. What restaurant did he run?

A. Chateau.
Q. Was he involved in gambling in any fashion?
A. Oh, he gambled.He would bet this (indicating) thing would fall over.
Q. Indicating the microphone?
A. Yes. Mr. HORNBECK:It is approximately five minutes to 11:00.Why don't we take just a short break for the reporter and for us, and we will continue in just, what, five minutes? THE WITNESS:Yeah. (A short recess was taken.) BY MR. HORNBECK:

Q. Mr. Campisi, we are ready resume with the deposition. We were discussing some people who you mentioned to the FBI as gamblers who Jack Ruby also might have known. In approximately 1961, Attorney General Robert Kennedy came to Dallas and was discussing the situation of gambling and other activities in the Dallas area, and there was apparently some discussion among people on the street with regard to the fact that the Attorney General's office and the FBI were going to begin intensive efforts in federal investigations in this area. Did you have discussions with any people in the Dallas area in 1961-1962 with regard to the FBI and the Justice Department becoming more active in the Dallas area? I never discussed it.I had heard about they was going to have a Federal Grand Jury hearing on gambling. I don't think it ever took place.I don't recall whether it ever did take place or not.
Q. Do you recall any individuals discussing the fact that the FBI was now more interested in gambling activities than they had been in the past and there were some new efforts in the investigation phase of the Bureau?
A. I think during the time that they passed -- what was that law they passed about conspiracy of five or more people, this type of stuff here, and a lot of bookmakers were talking, you know, about it. Somebody would say something about it, and I think some of the guys was going to lawyers and getting the rules on it, how would it become conspiracy if five or more people, and that's about all.
Q. We had discussed whether or not Jack Ruby had played cards with you at any time, and you had indicated to us that that particular allegation was not true. I wonder if you could tell us if you were a regular card player during the 1960's up to the end of 1963.
A. Now, you are saying card players.I mean, playing cards. What type of cards are you talking about? Poker?
Q. Yes, sir.was there any kind of regular card game, poker, in which you participated?
A. I never -- as far as being a card player and a poker player, I have played in some poker games at Glen Lake Country Club with members and this type stuff here, but as far as sitting down and playing with professional gamblers, no
Q. Were there any particular people in which you had regular games? I'm not talking about high stakes games, but just any individual in which there were regular periodic kinds of poker games.
A. No.
Q. In 1957, Mr. Joe Civello from the Dallas area was arrested in Appalachia, New York, and that caused great publicity. Were you associated in thesense that you know Mr. Civello?
A. I knew the whole Civello family.I had known them all of my life.I knew the whole family all of my life.
Q. What relationship, if any, did you have with Joe Civello?
A. They owned Civello's Liquor Store, and they had imported foods like pastas and cheese and tomato-good products. And at that time we started buying provolone cheese from them, and we were buying tomato paste and tomato product. And then in -- I forget what year it was, why, Schepps Wholesale Grocery started bringing in the Contadina tomatoes and we started buying them from them, and Charlie had called me and says, "You haven't been buying tomatoes." I said, "No.We are buying them cheaper from Schepps Wholesale Grocery." This is Charlie now.This is the brother Charlie.Joe never did discuss with me why I quit them or anything like that. And he says, "Well, I don't see how they are selling you tomatoes at the price you are paying when we buy them from the same broker." I says, "Charlie, that's your problem." says, "We are in business just like you are to make money and save money," and there never was no hard feelings over it at all.
Q. You indicated this was Schepps?
A. Schepps Grocery.
Q. Grocery?
A. Yes, the supplier here.We still buy from them.
Q. Who owns Schepps Grocer, do you know?
A. Well, Mr. Schepps is dead, and his son was killed in an airplane, and I think one of the younger kids, one of his sons is now operating it.
Q. Who is the supplier to Schepps?Who supplied Schepps with their tomatoes, do you know?
A. Well, it was Contadina tomatoes.
Q. What relationship, if any, other than that which you have mentioned, did you have with either Joe or Charles Civello?
A. About what?
Q. What relationship, if any, business or social?
A. Oh, just like kinfolks, you know.Just like we are real close friends, like being cousins, you know.
Q. Did you ever discuss with Joe Civelio the fact of his having been arrested at Appalachia?
A. Never have.
Q. I take it he had never volunteered any explanation?
A. No.It was none of my business-
Q. Were you acquainted or are you acquainted with either Vincent or Carlos Marcello of New Orleans?
A. I know Vincent, and I met Mr. Carlos Marcello about, maybe, six years ago. After all of these years that they had associated me with him I had never met the man.
Q. When did you first meet Vincent Marcello?
A. It was on a junket going out of New Orleans, and we went on that junket with him and I was introduced to him at the airport, and I never did see him again for about three or four months. I went back to New Orleans and went to a party and he was at the party, and we got to talking, and then occasionally we would go for Mardi Gras and I would go to the races and I would speak to him there. I didn't know him.I knew Joe, the one in the restaurant business before I knew any of them.
Q. How long have you known Joe Marcello?
A. I have known joe Marcello ever since I have been in the location that I am in now by meeting him through the restaurant, went out to have dinner with him.I went out and had dinner at their restaurant, you know, and for a long time when I went to New Orleans I never would go there?
Q. Why was that?
A. I was scared to go there.
Q. Just because of its general reputation?
A. Right, and so I came back and I told Joe Civello, I said, "You know what--" Frank and I -- I was in a project with Frank about building some apartments, had a little money invested --
Q. When you say Frank, do you mean Frank --
A. Frank La Coke, who is deceased now. Frank says, "We are going to Elmwood to eat," and I says, "No, I am going somewhere else tonight."I wouldn't go . So I come back and I told Joe Civello about it, and we laughed about it. He said, "Do you mean you wouldn't go out there to eat?" And I says, "No, sir." He says,"Well, why don't you just move to Russia then?"He says, "You live here in America and you are scared to go somewhere?" And that made a point.So I said, "Well, why should I hide from something," so the next time I went down there I went out there to dinner and that's how I met him. And then I met Vincent.I used to see little Sammy at football games. Maybe the Cowboys would go down there for an exhibition, and I would see little Sammy.I knew him, I knew how he looked, and I would wave at him and he would just barely wave at me.I guess he figured who in the hell is he? Then I started going there and started playing golf with Vincent.He invited me as a member guest, and then I got to know Sammy. Then I met Anthony, and Anthony had to come here one time for a gift show and Vincent said, "Go ahead and call Joe," and everything, you know. And he said, "Now, Joe is not going let you alone.He is going to bother you.He is going to keep you busy taking you out to restaurants," this and that, and Anthony laughs about it now. He said Vincent told him, "After you meet Joe he is not going to leave you alone," you know and everything, and there was a big laugh about that, and I have seen Mr. Marcello, how many times in my lifetime?One, two, three, four times in my lifetime.
Q. Were these times in New Orleans or --
A. Yes.
Q. -- in Dallas?
A. Never been to Dallas.To my knowledge he has never been to Dallas.
Q. What was the occasion of your meeting Carlos Marcello in New Orleans?
A. Well, I had told the brothers that I had never met Carlos.They couldn't believe it. "You have never met Carlos?"I said, "No, I have never met your brother Carlos," so I flew in one day for a golf tournament and Anthony picked me up and he said, "Well, let's stop at the Town and Country and you can go meet Carlos." So we get there and there were some people in the office, and he introduced me, blah, blah, blah, and so we just left, you know.
Then the next time -- he goes to Grand Isle every year to that fishing year.He has a camp there and everything. So we thought we would drive down there and go see him, and we went down there and I cooked spaghetti sauce for them and this type of stuff here and everything, and stayed there for maybe four or five hours, and we drove back.
Then the next time I saw him was at a fishing camp that they have there.The next time I was invited to the opening of Broussard's Restaurant, and I met him there. I had talked to him on the phone a couple of times.He has called me and asked me if I needed any crab claws or softshell crabs, and every year I send them sausage, 260 pounds of Italian sausage that I send to them for Christmas to give to all of the brothers and what friends I have there.I send like 260 pounds of sausage every year that I make special with walnuts and celery.
Q. Is there some reason why you send him 260 pounds to divide between everybody?
A. No.No.I send each brother, and then I have a lot of cousins there.I have a lot of relatives there, and I send sausage to all of them.
Q. So you used to go to New Orleans for family busines?
A. Oh, yes, and golf.The racetrack, no.
Q. Have you had any business dealings with any of the Marcello brothers?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever been involved in any betting with any of the Marcello brothers?
A. No, sir.
Q. Other than personal private bets between two individuals?
A. Betting.That's the funny thing.Betting. You are talking about like football lists?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, sir.

Q. Any other kinds of betting?
A. Vincent and I play golf.We have been playing golf now, and we have never bet one another. I go to the racetrack and he gives me a horse and he runs last.
Q. Did Jack Ruby ever introduce you to an individual by the name of Lawrence Meyers?
A. I don't recall.
Q. From Chicago?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall ever meeting an individual by that name?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. In 1963 did you ever meet an individual by the name of Jim Braden, B-r-a-d-e-n, also know as Eugene Hale Brading, B-r-a-d-i-n-g?
A. No, sir-

Q. This individual would have been associated with the oil lease business.
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know Jack Todd?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how long have you known Mr. Todd?

A. Oh, ever since we were 15, 16 years old.
Q. What business, if any, have you had with Mr. Todd?
A. No business.None.
Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Todd and Mr. Ruby had any business association?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know an individual who was the union representative for the American Guild of Variety Artists in the early '60s by the name of James Henry Dolan?
A. I have met a fellow by the name Dolan, but I didn't know he was connected with any type of union.
Q. Well, perhaps you could indicate to us the line of work the individual whom you know as Dolan was in?
A. I don't know any of his business.
Q. How did you meet Mr. Dolan?
A. I think at the restaurant, came there for dinner.
Q. Can you recall any of Mr. Dolan's associates whom he might have been to the restaurant with?
A. I don't know whether him through R.D. or what.I really don't recall.I have seen him at the golf course a lot of times at Tenison-There was a lot of action, you know, out there, playing golf, and I saw him at the golf course two or three times.
Q. Approximately how many years ago would that have been?
A. Oh, 15 or 16 years ago.
Q. Was this Mr. Dolan that you are describing a large individual?
A. A big fellow, yeah.
Q. Do you know whether or not he had any criminal record that you have heard of?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know whether or not he had any association with boxing in any way?
A. No.

Q. Is it your memory that the Dolan that you are remembering was perhaps introduced to you by Mr. Matthews?
A. I thought he was probably a gambler.
Q. Do you know a John Grizzaffi?
A. You know, you have got two of them.
Q. I take it there is one with s's and one with z's?
A. I don't know the spelling. It's Johnny Grizzaffi. The kid that I know is Johnny Grissaffi.No 400 middle name or nothing.Right?

Q. Yes, that's right.
A. No middle name.The one that worked down at the courthouse?
Q. I think that's one.
A. Yeah.I have known him ever since he was a kid.
Q. How about the other --

A. Johnny Brazil -- Johnny Grazzaffi?
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah.I have known him all of my life.
Q. In what context have you known him?
A. Well, the restaurant I have now I bought from him.He and his wife had opened it up.
Q. Do you know whether or not either of those two gentlemen were acquainted with Jack Ruby?
A. Oh, they probably knew him. No acquaintance. They probably knew Jack Ruby.They probably knew him.
Q. We had mentioned Jack Ruby being Chicago and whether or not he had discussed any individuals from Chicago with you. Have you had any business relationship with anyone from the Chicago area?
A. Don't know anyone from there.The only person I knew from Chicago was a boy named Rick Caceres.He 401 was a professional pickpocket, and he taught me how to steal watches.
Q. It is not the Rick Caceres who used to play for the Bears?
A. No, no.This boy here was in show business, and he would do -- like the Lone Star Steel Company would come in here, and he would do banquets for them, and they would introduce him as public relation work, and then he would go through the dining room taking peoples' watches and their billfolds. That was the only party that I know from Chicago.
Q. When we were discussing New Orleans did you ever meet a Nofio Pecora?
A. No, sir. THE REPORTER: How do you spell that, please. MR. HORNBECK: P-e-c-o-r-a. The first name is N-o-f-i-o.
Q. Did you ever meet a Maurice Meadlovain known as Frenchie Meadlovain?
A. No, sir.
Q. When we were discussing earlier I didn't ask you whether or not you had either been invited to Cuba or actually gone to Cuba in the late 1950's? 402
A. No, sir.
Q. And Mr. Matthews never invited you?
A. No, sir.
Q. And Mr. Ruby never invited you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Jack Ruby ever mention an individual to you by the name of Al Zuckerman?
A. No, sir.
Q. From Chicago?
A. No, sir.
Q. I wonder at this time, Mr. Campisi, if we could just excuse you for five minutes and Mr. Purdy and I will discuss a couple of matters and come out and get you?
A. Okay. MR. HORNBECK:Thanks a lot. (Witness departs the courtroom.) (A short recess was taken.) BY MR. HORNBECK:
Q. Mr. Campisi, there are a few matters that we would just like to complete to make sure the record is as complete as we can possibly make it. Going back to some of the beginning things we first discussed, I had asked you some questions on Hy Fader and Jack Ruby, and you indicated that perhaps there was some falling out between the two that you heard about. 403 Did Mr. Fader become successful after he and Ruby were no longer in any kind of business relationship?
A. Successful like what?
Q. Successful in terms of making money and doing well financially and socially?
A. I don't -- you know, Hy Fader was booking those one-night, once a month, whatever it was, show-type of things, you know, bands, big bands and this type of stuff, and now whether he made any money out of it I don't know whether he made a lot of money out of it. I think that time -- I don't know whether he was in the rug cleaning business.He had another business that he was in, you know.I don't think he was successful in booking those one-night things because so many people have tried it, you know. They have tried to get me to get into booking entertainment, and I knew about entertainment all of my life.I know it is no good, you know. Then I know -- I think that Hy Fader at one time did get into some financial problems, you know, and I don't know whether he and his wife broke up or what.His family, they all went to California, and that's the last I heard of him.
Q. One of Jack Ruby's partners in later years was an individual by the name of Ralph Paul. 404 Did you know Ralph Paul?
A. I think he was an elderly fellow, some old man.
Q. He was an older man?
A. Yeah.Now, whether he and Jack were partners together, I really don't know.I know that they were real close friends.
Q. Were you a friend of Ralph Paul's at all?

A. I just knew him with Jack, you know.
Q. You never had any independent relationship with him?
A. Oh, no.No.

Q. We discussed the amateur night or hour at the Las Vegas Club. Could you tell us how Jack got people to participate in an amateur hour, what kind of acts they were?
A. They were striptease acts, and he would say it was amateur and, you know, how girls would be.He would get them -- I don't whether he paid them anything or not, but they would want to do their bit, their show, show their bodies off, and I guess they were looking for Hollywood to discover them or something.
This is how, I guess, how he beat the price by not having to pay them.And it was a funny thing, you know. 405
Q. Did Jack ever discuss with you that the amateur hour was a good way to attract business and whether his competitors were doing the same kind of thing?
A. I think that the reason that he did that was to attract business, you know, but as far as his competitors worrying about it I don't think they were worried about it because I don't think at that time Abe was putting on anything special at that time, you know.
As far as to my knowledge, at that time, it wasn't but just Ruby with the show-bit stuff and Abe.I think they were the only ones that had strippers at that time.
Q. Do you recall Jack Ruby having an amateur night or hour at the Carousel Club?
A. I don't recall.He might have-I don't know, but I think most of them were down at the Las Vegas thing.
Q. You discussed the after-hours party for the one pregnant employee of Jack Ruby's. What kind of an after-hours party was Jack talking about?
A. I don't know.I didn't even go to it.I just donated $5.00 to buy one of the tickets
Q. Was this at a time when there a curfew imposed on the drinking?
A. I think the party was going to be at the Holiday on Central in one of the banquet rooms. 406
Q. Do you know whether or not Jack had many of these after-hour parties?
A. No.No.That was the only one I ever knew of.
Q. And you had never heard that he had a habit of throwing these after-hours kind of parties and what kind of party it may have been?
A. No.He said it was for one of the girls that was pregnant and he was doing this here to help her and he was going to give her the money.
Q. There is an individual gambler in town by the name of Johnny Eli Stone?
A. Johnny Stone, yeah.
Q. Do you know Mr. Stone?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby had any relationship with Mr. Stone?
A. He probably knew him.
Q. I take it Mr. Stone was also a bookmaker?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. During the period of time in which you have been in Dallas you have been involved in some kind of sports betting over the years?
A. I bet on football, yes.
Q. Would you say that you, over the years, would know people involved in the gambling business? 407
A. Yes.
Q. And if Jack Ruby had been involved in either accepting bets, placing bets or acting as a collector of bets for anyone would it be a fair statement that you would probably at least hear some of that information?
A.Yes, I would have heard about it and I never did.
Q.In 1961, there was a lawsuit that attracted some attention in Dallas, a businessman by the name of McDonough was sued by the Tropicana Casino for about 80 or $90,000.00.
A. I don't anything about it.
Q. That never came to your attention at all?
A. No.
Q. You indicated that one of the individuals that you met in Las Vegas and heard for a long time was Benny Binyon?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Binyon was a part of Dallas for quite a long period of time and then moved to Las Vegas?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any reason associated with the gambling business that you heard that occasioned Mr. Binyon to move to Las Vegas?
A. I think one of the reasons he probably moved 408 there was when the town got closed up, why, he went to Vegas, you know.
Q. That would have been in the late '40s in the time period you were discussing before as to Mr. Wilson coming and changing the administration?
A. Yes.That was in '46, I think, he went out to Vegas.
Q. Do you know an individual in Los Angeles by the name of Michael Shore?
A. No, sir.
Q. Alex Gruber?
A. Alex Gruber?
Q. Gruber, G-r-u-b-e-r-
A. No, sir.
Q. Erwin Weiner?
A. No, sir.
Q. Allen Dorffman.
A. No, sir.
Q. Barney Baker?
A. No, sir.
Q. You had mentioned a stripper who worked for Jack Ruby by the stage name of Jada?
A. Yes.
Q. She was in New Orleans originally? 409
A. I think she came from New Orleans, yes.
Q. I take it you had not seen her or heard of her in New Orleans prior to her coming to Dallas?
A. I don't recall.You know, she probably worked on Bourbon Street, and the next thing I knew she was working here in Dallas and someone said she was from New Orleans, and she was married to some boy by the name of Junior there or something, you know.
Q. From New Orleans?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was Junior supposed to have any organized crime ties or connections that you are aware of?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know an individual who ran some clubs in New Orleans by the name of Harold Tannenbaum?
A. No, sir.
Q. We have talked about Jack Ruby's relationship with the Dallas Police Department, and you indicated that on least one occasion which you had been to the Carousel that there were some individuals you recognized from --
A. The vice squad, yes, sir.
Q. Any particular individuals' names that you recall?
A. No, sir, I don't recall.All I knew was they were -- you know how officers stand out, detectives, you know. 410
Q. When Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald what was your reaction and the reaction of the people you knew well who knew Jack Ruby very well?
A. I thought he was crazy.
Q. Was it something that suprised you or shocked you that Jack Ruby had done it?
A. Well, he has got to be a crazy, or I wasn't surprised, you know. Just a lot of things went through my mind.
Q. Where were you when you first heard that Jack Ruby had--
A. Passing by my television. I was going through the den, and they said something about Oswald had been shot, and I looked back, and, of course, I thought I saw the natural thing, you know. Then I found out it was, you know, a replay.
Q. What was the first thing you did when you saw that?
A. I think I hollered at my wife. I said, "Hey, they have killed Oswald here," you know. You know, hell, you holler -- it looked like the real thing to me when I first saw it. I am going around telling everybody I saw it 411 first, you know, boom, boom, boom.
And they said, "Well, that was a re-broadcast back," you know.
When you and your wife went to speak with Jack Ruby did you ever why he did it?
A. No.

Q. You weren't curious to ask that kind of question?
A. No.You know, hell, you are spellbound. You know, you don't have words to say to somebody and you don't know what to say, you know. Q. We had talked about Cuba and Mr. Matthews working in Cuba and Mr. McWillie working in Cuba. A. Did you ever discuss with Mr. McWillie who he worked for in Cuba or what kind of business he had. A. No, sir? Q. Did you ever discuss with him the name of Santo Trafficante? A. No, sir. Q. Did Mr. Trafficante's name ever come up when you were discussing anything with Mr. Marcello, any of the Marcello's? A. No, sir. Q. You have no idea whether or not any of the Marcello family is acquainted with Mr. Trafficante? 412
A. No, sir.
Q. We had discussed just very briefly Sheriff Decker. What was you relationship with Mr. Decker?
A. Like a son.
Q. I wonder if you could just tell us how that relationship developed and just characterize it for us?
A. Well, you know, ever since I was a little boy, why, he knew of our family and he knew the Italian families and everybody loved Decker. Decker made a lot of friends with a lot of people. Decker never had any problems with the Italian families here. As I grew up and knew of Decker, and just like grew up with him, you know, and I guess the man loved me and I loved him. I love Mrs. Decker. I would go down to the courthouse and I would always make it a point to go by and holler at him, sit down you know.
Q. We had discussed Ralph Prestridge. You indicated that you first knew Mr. Prestridge because he was
a nephew of another individual --
A. Loyce Green.
Q. How did you know Mr. Green?
A. All of my life. You know, raised here in 413 Dallas. I had been in the beer business since 1938, so from 1938, the year I got out of high school I bought a beer joint, and so from that time on, why, I had met a lot of people in my lifetime.
Q. You never had any business relationship with Mr. Green?
A. (Shakes head.)
Q. We discussed the Oswald shooting.We didn't discuss anything of the assassination of President Kennedy. Where were you when that news first came on?
A. I was driving in my car when I first heard that.
Q. Do you recall where you were?
A. No, I don't.On my way to the place or something when I heard that.

Q. And what was your reaction when you heard that?
A. Well, it scared me to death, you know.
Q. Did you have any feeling that that kind of event could have happened in this city or --
A. Well, I guess it could have happened anywhere, you know. It could have happened anywhere, but, you know, my God, it is a shock when I heard about it, the President getting killed, you know. 414
Q. We have asked a lot of questions today about various people who have been associated, at least, in the public mind with gambling and sometimes with being in "in organized crime activities", and you have told us how you have known these people and all of that. If Jack Ruby were associated in any kind of organized crime activity would it be your belief that you would have heard something as to his connections of all of the people that you know?
A. Just off the record.Can we do this off the record? I want to ask you something.
MR. HORNBECK:All right.We can take this statement off the record. (Discussion off the record.)
MR. HORNBECK: We are back on the record, and we had paused for Mr. Campisi to ask me my definition of organized crime, and I gave Mr. Campisi a definition that includes legislative, state and federal organized crime definition, and also a popular public perception of organized crime as an outgrowth of the Sicilian Mafia, and then Mr. Campisi indicated to me what his view of organized crime is, and we decided that we would put that on the record.
Q. So if you would just repeat what you have told Mr. Purdy and myself about whether or not if we 415 individually wanted to act as bookmakers in this city, whether we could haveyour interpretation of organized crime.
A. I think anyone who wants to become a bookmaker, 16 years old, 15 years old, if he wants to get him a telephone and get his own customers and has his own bankroll, and if he has got the money he can go ahead and book and all he has got to worry about is the police.
He doesn't have to answer to anyone else about it, nobody coming and muscling him or telling him that he has got to do this or do that.
And I don't think that has ever happened in Dallas, Texas.
Q. So you are saying in the period of the '50s, 1960's, that if an individual wanted to be a bookmaker there was no person or group that would either prevent him from being a bookmaker, take a cut from his bookmaking operation in order for him to operate?
A. Exactly right.
Q. It is customary in the testimony portions of the committee hearings for a witness to have a five-minute period in which the witness can discuss whatever is on the witness's mind in terms of questions that have been asked and the subject matter which has been raised.
So at this time in this deposition I am going to give you the opportunity to make a statement, if you wish, 416 concerning the investigation, your thoughts on that, thoughts on Mr. Ruby or any of your thoughts with regard to the questions that have been asked or the publicity that you have received or anything else that is related to the particular deposition and events that have surrounded Dallas.
So if there is anything you would like to say, Mr. Campisi, we would be happy to place that in the record also.
THE WITNESS:Hold this a minute.Can you hold up a minute?
MR. HORNBECK: Yes, we can.
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. HORNBECK: Mr. Campisi has indicated that he is satisfied with the questions and answers in the deposition and doesn't have anything to add other than the fact that Jack Ruby is crazy.
THE WITNESS:Now, may I say something to put on the record?
Are you satisfied from what I have told you?
MR. HORNBECK:Yes, sir.
THE WITNESS:That's it.
(Whereupon the deposition concluded at 12:10 p.m.) 417
I, GARLIN ATTAWAY, a Notary Public in and for Harris County, Texas, being the Notary Public before whom the aforegoing sworn testimony of JOSEPH CAMPISI was taken, do hereby certify that the witness was first duly sworn by me to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and that the above and forgoing is a true and correct transcript of said testimony.
Given under my hand and seal of office on this the 29th day of May, 1978. -------------------------------
Garlin Attaway, Notary Public
in and for Harris County, Texas