The CHAIRMAN - All right, gentlemen, are we ready? Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, Mr. Jackson? Do You solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. JACKSON - I do.
Mr. CHAIRMAN - Will you be seated, please.
Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you state -
Mr. CHAIRMAN - First, I will read a very small short statement for the record. The purpose of this day's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.
You have seen a copy of this, have you, Mr. Jackson?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. CHAIRMAN - Very well, you may proceed, Mr. Specter.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you state your name for the record, please?
Mr. JACKSON - Robert Hill Jackson.
Mr. SPECTER - And what is your address, Mr. Jackson?
Mr. JACKSON - 4030 Sperry.
Mr. SPECTER - What city is that located in?
Mr. JACKSON - Dallas, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER - How long have you lived at that address, please?
Mr. JACKSON - Since September of 1963.
Mr. SPECTER - And of what state are you a native?
Mr. JACKSON - I am a native of Dallas, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you lived in Dallas all your life?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your occupation at the present time?
Mr. JACKSON - Staff photographer for the Dallas Times Herald.
Mr. SPECTER - How long have you been so employed?
Mr. JACKSON - Since August of 1960.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you outline for us briefly -
The CHAIRMAN - 1950 or 1960?
Mr. JACKSON - 1960.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you outline for us briefly your educational background, please?
Mr. JACKSON - I attended Highland Park High School and then Southern Methodist University, where I studied for a business degree, and I did not finish. I lack about 8 hours of finishing, of getting a degree.
Mr. SPECTER - What year did you leave the University?
Mr. JACKSON - 1957.
Mr. SPECTER - How were you occupied between the time you left the university and the time you started to work for the newspaper?
Mr. JACKSON - I did some freelance photography work for a while, over a year, until I went into the service on the 6 month's plan through my National Guard unit, and I was a photographer there in the Army, on-the-job training, and then after I was released from the Army I did freelance work, I guess for about a year, until I got the job at the Herald.
Mr. SPECTER - How old are you at the present time?
Mr. JACKSON - Twenty nine.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your marital status?
Mr. JACKSON - I am married.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you have any children?
Mr. JACKSON - One child. One girl 15 months today.
Mr. SPECTER - Going back to November 22, 1963, by whom were you employed at that time?
Mr. JACKSON - Dallas Times Herald.
Mr. SPECTER - What was your assignment on that specific day?
Mr. JACKSON - I was assigned to the motorcade to meet the President, Love Field, and go to the Trade Mart and that was the extent of it, cover the parade, I mean the motorcade and the speech.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you assigned to take pictures?
Mr. JACKSON - To take pictures, yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you meet the President at Love Field?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - And did you take photographs for your newspaper at Love Field?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Describe briefly your activities at Love Field on the morning of November 22, please?
Mr. JACKSON - Well, we got there, I guess, 30, 40 minutes early.
Mr. SPECTER - At about what time would that have been?
Mr. JACKSON - I have to think to remember exactly what time, around 9, I guess, 9 to 9:15, I believe. And I took pictures there. There were other photographers from our paper there, our chief photographer. And we just took shots of the crowd, and waited for the President to arrive.
And then when he did arrive, our chief photographer left and went directly to the Trade Mart and I got into the motorcade to ride to town.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you know exactly which car you were in the motorcade?
Mr. JACKSON - We counted up, and it is either the seventh or eighth car. We said eighth car from the President, from the lead car.
Mr. SPECTER - When you say we counted up, whom do you mean?
Mr. JACKSON - The photographers in the car. As we left Love Field, we were trying to figure how far back we were and we all decided it was the eighth car.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you reconstruct that count for us which provided the basis for your conclusion that you were the seventh or eighth car. For example, how many cars ahead of you was the President's car or the Vice President's car, if you can recollect, please.
Mr. JACKSON - Let me think a minute. I know there was a photographer's car directly in front of us which I believe had some of the local press. It was a convertible. Then in front were, I believe, two or three cars carrying the press, the White House press, and the President Johnson, I guess would be in the next car, and then the President in the lead car, or the next car, and I believe there was another car in the lead.
Mr. SPECTER - So as you recollect the scene there was a lead and immediately behind the lead car, whose car?
Mr. JACKSON - The president's I believe.
Mr. SPECTER - And the immediately behind the President's whose car?
Mr. JACKSON - The Vice President's.
Mr. SPECTER - And immediately to the rear of the Vice President's car?
Mr. JACKSON - Press vehicles and I was told it was the White House press, two or three cars.
Mr. SPECTER - And there was one car filled with photographers?
Mr. JACKSON - Directly in front of us.
Mr. SPECTER - Between your car and the cars which you believe to have been filled with White House newsman?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. CHAIRMAN - Wasn't there a Secret Service car directly behind the President's car?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. CHAIRMAN - Between it and the Vice President's car?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. SPECTER - Wasn't there a Secret Service car immediately behind the Vice President's car. If you know?
Mr. JACKSON - There must have been. That is what I can't recall is which was which in there. I knew the White House press was in there but I didn't know how many cars. I am sure there was Secret Service cars, yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - As you were proceeding along in the motorcade, were you within sight of the President's automobile?
Mr. JACKSON - At times. When he was - when we could not get a clear view of it because of the photographers in the car ahead of us who were sitting up on the back of the seat just like we were, we did not have a clear view of the car at all times.
Mr. SPECTER - As you proceeded along approximately how far behind the President's car were you, expressed either in cars, block lengths or in any way that is convenient for you?
Mr. JACKSON - Well, I would say approximately a block, average city block, maybe closer at times.
Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Jackson, I show you a photograph which has been marked heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 347, and ask you to look at it for a moment, and see if you can identify what the photograph depicts.
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir; this is the scene of the assassination, parade route, Main and Houston, left on Elm.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, which street did the Presidential motorcade take coming on to that scene which you have described as the assassination scene.
Mr. JACKSON - They were on Houston.
Mr. SPECTER - And before Houston, what street were they on?
Mr. JACKSON - Main Street.
Mr. SPECTER - What direction were they proceeding on Main Street?
Mr. JACKSON - West.
Mr. SPECTER - Now without reference to the photograph, will you tell us what happened as the motorcade proceeded west on Main Street?
Mr. JACKSON - Well, on Main, as we neared Houston Street everyone was more or less in a relaxed state in our car, because we were near the end of the route, I guess, nothin unusual happened on Main Street.
The final block on Main, before we turned on to Houston I was in the process of unloading a camera and I was to toss it out of the car as we turned right on Houston Street to one of our reporters.
Mr. SPECTER - Had that been set up by prearrangement?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir. And what I did as we turned the corner, and when - it was in an interval and as I threw it out the wind blew it, caught it and blew it out into the street and our reporter chased it out into the street and the photographers in our car, one of the photographers, was a TV cameraman whom I don't recall his name, and he was joking about the film being thrown out and he was shooting my picture of throwing the film out.
Mr. SPECTER - At this point could you tell us, to the best of your recollection, precisely who was with you in the car at that time?
Mr. JACKSON - Jim Underwood from KRLD-TV station, Tom Dillard, chief photographer for the Dallas Morning News, and me, and then two newsreel cameramen who I know by sight, but I don't know their names.
One of which is with WFAA which is the Dallas Morning News station, and I believe the other was channel 11, I believe.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you position those people in the automobile for us with respect to where each was sitting?
(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JACKSON - Tom Dillard and Jim Underwood were in the front seat with the driver.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you identify who the driver was?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - But he was a sixth individual separate and apart from the five heretofore described?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir. And in the back seat were the two I know by sight but I can't remember the names.
and I was on the right side of the car.
Mr. SPECTER - On the right side of which seat?
Mr. JACKSON - Back seat, sitting up on the back of a seat.
Mr. SPECTER - What kind of car was it, sir.
Mr. JACKSON - I believe it was a Chevrolet convertible.
Mr. SPECTER - Top down?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you carrying one camera, or more than one camera?
Mr. JACKSON - Two cameras.
Mr. SPECTER - And was one camera loaded at the time you rounded the corner of Main and Houston?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir; and one was empty.
Mr. SPECTER - Was it from the camera which was empty that you had taken the roll of film which you have just described?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - All right. Will you now proceed to tell us what happened as you rounded the corner of Main and Houston , Please?
Mr. JACKSON - Well, as our reporter chased the film out into the street, we all looked back at him and were laughing, and it was approximately that time that we heard the first shot, and we had already rounded the corner, of course, when we heard the the first shot. We were approximately almost half a block on Houston Street.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you identify for me on Commission Exhibit 347, Precisely as possible, where your automobile was at the time you heard the first shot?
Mr. JACKSON - Approximately right here, I would say the midpoint of this building. Approximately where we heard the first report.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, will you mark a black "X" on 347 the spot where your car was at the time you heard the first shot?
Mr. JACKSON - Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, I believe it was Tom Dillard from the Dallas News who made some remark as to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment and before he actually the sentence we heard the other two shots. Then we realized or we thought it was gunfire, and then we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle, or what looked like a rifle approximately half of weapon, I guess I saw. and just looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I saw no one in the window with it. I didn't even see a form in the window.
Mr. SPECTER - What did you do next?
Mr. JACKSON - I said "There is the gun," or it came from that window. I tried to point it out. But by the time the other people looked up, of course, it was gone, and about that time, we were beginning to turn the corner.
Mr. SPECTER - Which corner were you beginning to turn?
Mr. JACKSON - Houston onto Elm.
Mr. SPECTER - I now show you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that depicts?
Mr. JACKSON - This is the School Book Depository. This is the window the two colored men were looking out of. This is the window where the rifle was.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you mark the window where the rifle was with an "A" and would you please mark the window where you have identified the men below with a "B."
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER - Referring to your mark of "A," the photograph will show that you have marked the window on the sixth floor with the marking being placed on the window on the westerly half of the first double window.
Mr. JACKSON - I am sorry. This window here on the very end was the window where the weapon was. I am sorry, I just marked the double - actually this is the rifle window right here.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you take the black pencil again and draw an arrow - before you start to mark, hear the rest of the question - as precisely as you can to the exact spot where you saw what you have described as the rifle.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER - Was the window you have just marked as being the spot from which the rifle protruded, open when you looked up?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best recollection as to how far open it was at that time?
Mr. JACKSON - I would say that it was open like that window there, halfway.
Mr. SPECTER - Indicating a window on the sixth floor of the westernmost portion of the building open halfway as you described it.
My last comment, as to the description of your last window, is only for the purpose of what you have said in identifying a window to show how far open the window was.
Mr. JACKSON - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Which you heretofore marked with an arrow, correct?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Also in that window I could see boxes, corrugated boxes on the left portion which would be my left, of the window, the open window.
Mr. SPECTER - How many boxes could you see?
Mr. JACKSON - I couldn't tell. It just seemed like a stack of boxes.
Mr. SPECTER - How high were the boxes stacked?
Mr. JACKSON - Maybe two is all I saw They were stacked, I believe they were as high as the window was open, halfway up the window.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best recollection of the size of those boxes which you say you saw?
Mr. JACKSON - Maybe like that, that wide.
Mr. SPECTER - Indicating approximately 3 feet wide?
Mr. JACKSON - Three feet or a little less maybe.
Mr. SPECTER - What was the height of those boxes?
Mr. JACKSON - I would say high enough to hide a man. Let's say between 5 and 6 feet high, I would say they were 5 feet high at least.
Mr. SPECTER - That is each box would be 5 feet high?
Mr. JACKSON - No; the stack, the stacked boxes.
Mr. SPECTER - Could you see how many boxes were stacked up to reach a total height of 5 to 6 feet?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Whether or not you could identify anyone, could you see even the form or outline of the man?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir. It looked to me like the man was over to the side of the window because the rifle was at quite an angle to me.
Mr. SPECTER - Which side of the window?
Mr. JACKSON - Well, from the position of the rifle it would be the corner of the building, the east. It would be to the right of the window from my view.
Mr. SPECTER - Which direction was the rifle pointing?
Mr. JACKSON - West. To my left.
Mr. SPECTER - Was it pointing in a straight westerly direction or was it pointing at an angle from the building?
Mr. JACKSON - It was at an angle from the building. I am not - well, let's see - well, it wouldn't be directly west.
Mr. SPECTER - What was the general line of direction of the pointing of the rifle?
Mr. JACKSON - Well, directly down the street.
Mr. SPECTER - And by down the street you are pointing out what street?
Mr. JACKSON - Down Elm Street toward the triple, toward the underpass
Mr. SPECTER - Was it pointed as you have indicated at the angle which Elm Street traverses heading toward the triple underpass?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir. And the rifle was pointing slightly down.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you at any time in this sequence observe the President's automobile?
Mr. JACKSON - As we turned the corner - or we stopped where the intersection, actually we stopped before we began to turn left onto Elm Street, or rather I would say we hesitated and we were all looking down towards the President's car and I could see two cars going under the underpass. I barely saw the President's car. I would say just the rear end of it as it disappeared under the underpass.
Mr. SPECTER - Was that the only time you saw the President's car from the time you made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston Street?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate as to the time span between the first shot you heard and the last shot you heard?
Mr. JACKSON - I would say 5 to 8 seconds.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us a breakdown between the shots which you heard as to how many seconds elapsed between each one?
Mr. JACKSON - I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and the third, well I guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more time between the first and second. I really can't be sure.
Mr. SPECTER - Are you sure you heard three shots?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, will you mark on the overhead shot, which is exhibit 347 with a "Y" as precisely as you can the position of your automobile at the time you heard the second shot?
Mr. JACKSON - With a "Y"?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes, please.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER - Would you now mark on the same exhibit the precise position of your car as closely as you can recollect it when you heard the third shot with the letter "Z"?
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER - When, in relation to the timing of the shots, which you have described, did you first look toward the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JACKSON - It couldn't have been more than 3 seconds before I looked at that window.
Mr. SPECTER - Three seconds from what point in time?
Mr. JACKSON - From the last shot.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you say from the last shot?
Mr. JACKSON - From the last shot, yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best recollection or estimate of the speed of your automobile as you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street at the time of the shooting?
Mr. JACKSON - I would say not over 15 miles an hour.
Mr. SPECTER - What would your best estimate be as to the minimum speed?
Mr. JACKSON - Ten, I would say.
Mr. SPECTER - Where in the window were the two Negro men, whom you have described?
Mr. JACKSON - Well there was one in each one of those double windows.
Mr. SPECTER - On which floor was that?
Mr. JACKSON - The fifth floor.
Mr. SPECTER - And will you place an arrow where you saw each of those men, please?
Mr. JACKSON - Each one of them?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe any reaction from either or both of those two men when you saw them?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir. Just looking up.
Mr. SPECTER - Could you see their faces reasonably clear to observe that they were looking up?
Mr. JACKSON - I could tell they were looking up because they were leaning way out just like that. I couldn't see their faces very well at all.
Mr. SPECTER - The witness has leaned forward and turned his head to the right and looking upward as he sits in the witness chair, may the record show.
Representative FORD - Did they both turn the same way that you have indicated in answer to Mr. Specter's question?
Mr. JACKSON - To the best of my recollection one man looked up to his right and the other man looked up like this to his left, one in each window.
Representative FORD - Can you identify which to his right and which to his left?
Mr. JACKSON - I believe the one on the right window, my right, was looking to his right. The one on the west window, the one to my left was looking to his left. I believe I am right on that but I may not because I just looked at them for a fraction of a second, I just followed them up.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the distance which separated you from those two men at the time you observed them?
Mr. JACKSON - I am not ver good at distances. I was about the middle of the block, I guess. I would say around a hundred yards, I guess.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see those two men before or after you observed the rifle?
Mr. JACKSON - Before.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your estimate of how many inches of the rifle that you observed?
Mr. JACKSON - I saw the barrel and about half - well, I did not see a telescopic sight, but I did see part of the stock, so I guess maybe 8 or 10 inches of the stock maybe. I did see part of the stock, I did not see the sight.
Mr. SPECTER - Eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the barrel would you estimate?
Mr. JACKSON - I guess possibly a foot.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, as best as you can recollect it, what exact words did you state at or about the time you made the observation of the rifle, if any?
Mr. JACKSON - I said, "There is the gun" and somebody said "Where?" And I said, "It came from that window" and I pointed to that window.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you recollect who it was who said "Where?"
Mr. JACKSON - Somebody in the car, I don't recall who.
Mr. SPECTER - Did anybody else in the car say anything else at the time?
Mr. JACKSON - Nothing that I could remember. I am sure they were all talking.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you say anything else at about that time?
Mr. JACKSON - If I did, I don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER - Did anyone in the automobile state that he, too, had seen the rifle from the window?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you have a conversation with all of the men in the car immediately after the incident?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir; because as, I guess after the third shot, I do recall the driver speeding up, and we hesitated at the corner before turning left, and three of the occupants of the car got out, jumped out.
Mr. SPECTER - Who were those three?
Mr. JACKSON - That was Underwood, Jim Underwood, Tom Dillard and one of the TC cameramen. The WHAA channel 8 cameraman and I were left in the back seat. We couldn't make up our minds.
Mr. SPECTER - Was there an individual in the car by the name of Mr. Couch, to your knowledge?
Mr. JACKSON - Couch?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. JACKSON - I don't know him.
Mr. SPECTER - Malcolm Couch?
Mr. JACKSON - The name is familiar. I might state what I did see as we did hesitate there at the corner, I don't recall whether this was before the other three fellows got out of the car or not, I believe we were still in the car, as we observed these other things, but in a fleeting glance as I saw the cars go under the underpass, I did see people running. I saw a motorcycle policeman jump off his motorcycle, in fact, he just hit the curb and just let it fall, and he went down on his knees on the grass, on the lawn of that parkway.
I did see a family covering up their child, and I just saw a state of confusion, people running, and that is about all I saw at that point of the scene.
Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Jackson, at the time you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression from the sound itself as to the source of the shot, point of origin?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir; I didn't. it did sound like it came from ahead of us or from the general vicinity but I could not tell whether it was high up or on the ground.
Mr. SPECTER - When you say general vicinity, what vicinity did you mean?
Mr. JACKSON - We were sure it came from ahead of us which would be in a northerly direction, northwesterly direction. It did sound as though it came from somewhere around the head of the motorcade.
Mr. SPECTER - From the second shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to the source of this shot?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir. Through all three shots, I could just tell that it was ahead of me and not behind me, that is it.
Mr. SPECTER - And the same impression then prevailed through the third shot as well.
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir. To me it never sounded like it was high or low.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you had an occasion since the incident to relate the factual sequences, your observations and what you heard? Have you had occasion to tell anybody about what you saw and heard as you have described it to us?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Has there been any variation in your recollection or impressions about your observations on these occasions?
Mr. JACKSON - Not to my knowledge. The other times were not as thorough as this.
Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Chief Justice, Those are all the questions I have, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask Mr. Jackson?
Representative FORD - Mr. Jackson, when and by whom were you questioned or interrogated subsequent to the event? I was thinking the FBI, the Secret Service, or any investigative organization.
Mr. JACKSON - You say when, how soon afterwards?
Representative FORD - Right
Mr. JACKSON - I would say within 2 days afterwards, let's see, the next was the first day.
Representative FORD - Saturday November 23?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir; I believe it was the first time.
Representative FORD - Who, by name, if you can, but if not by what organization?
Mr. JACKSON - The FBI called me, I believe it was Friday evening, and I believe I did give some information on the phone Friday night.
Representative FORD - Was that followed up-
Mr. JACKSON - And they came and saw me in the office, I believe on Saturday.
Representative FORD - How did they happen to contact you? Had you made a statement publicly before?
Mr. JACKSON - Our newspaper ran an article by me or I go a byline on it stating this in general which I have stated today.
Representative FORD - Following this initial contact have you made subsequent statements to various organizations or any organization?
Mr. JACKSON - I made statements to the Secret Service also. Other than that there was none other.
Representative FORD - How good are your eyes, do you wear glasses?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir.
Representative FORD - Have you had an eye examination recently or when was your last examination?
Mr. JACKSON - I had a physical when I reenlisted in the National Guard, let's see, that was, I believe, about a year and a half ago, I had that physical and I had 20-20 vision.
Representative FORD - 20-20 vision?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - You just indicated you were in the Texas National Guard?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - How long have you been in the Texas National Guard?
Mr. JACKSON - I joined in October 1958.
Representative FORD - And you have been in continuously since?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - So you are familiar with guns in general?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - So you would readily identify, if you saw it, a rifle?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - Did any others in the automobile in which you were riding recollect as far as you know, hearing you say "There is the gun."
Mr. JACKSON - I don't know whether they would remember it or not.
Representative Ford - Have you ever talked with any others in the car?
Mr. JACKSON - I have never sat down and talked with them about the events, no, sir. I have seen them, of course, several times but I have never discussed it with them.
Representative Ford - You never discussed what you said or what they said?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir. I guess the one man I have discussed it more with than anybody else was Tom Dillard, the chief photographer for the Dallas News, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either.
Representative Ford - At the time you were in the car, after it had turned from Main onto Houston, was there any noise from the crowed on either side of the street, Houston Street?
Mr. JACKSON - There was very little crowed on Houston as I recall. On Houston itself. The crowed - I mean as compared to Main Street, to the other end of town and down through Main. The crowed thinned out as we got down near the intersection of Main and Houston, and there was a lot less people but I couldn't make an estimate of how many.
Representative Ford - There was no noise from the crowed at that point?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir; no noise, I would say.
Representative Ford - At the time you heard the first shot, what was your position in the car? Were you standing or sitting?
Mr. JACKSON - I was sitting on the back of the seat, on the right hand side of the back seat, sitting up.
Representative Ford - Did you have a camera in your hand?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes; I had one camera around my neck and the camera I had just emptied, it was in my lap. I had thrown my film out to this reporter over the side of the car as we rounded the corner and I still had the camera lying in my lap, and the other one was around my neck.
Representative Ford - Was this the position you were in at the time you heard the first shot?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir.
Representative Ford - After the third shot and as the car hesitated, did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or concerted direction?
Mr. JACKSON - I saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the School Depository steps, toward the door. That is one of the things I saw in this confusion.
Representative Ford - Was this separate from the policeman on the motorcycle?
Mr. JACKSON - Yes, sir. Yes. I should have said that a while ago. There was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository. But to the best of my knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot. It looked like general confusion to me, and of course, I stayed in the car. As we did turn the corner our driver speeded up and we went by the scene pretty fast and I do recall this Negro family covering up their child on the grass, and I, as we passed them, they were just getting up and he had the child in his arms and the child looked limp and I didn't know whether the child was shot or not. But then we were moving fast and went on under the underpass.
Representative Ford - That is all Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN - Mr. Wright, do you have any questions?
Mr. WRIGHT - No, Mr. Chief Justice, I passed a question on.
Mr. SPECTER - I have just one additional question, and that is whether Mr. Jackson had any occasion to see anybody leave the scene of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JACKSON - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - That is all, Your Honor.
The CHAIRMAN - Mr. Jackson, thank you very much for coming.
Mr. JACKSON - Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN - We appreciate it.