TESTIMONY OF HAROLD NORMAN
I will ask you if you will please stand and hold up your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. NORMAN. I do.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Norman.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live?
Mr. NORMAN. 4858 Beulah Place, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Are you married?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How old are you?
Mr. NORMAN. 26. I will be.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born?
Mr. NORMAN. Clarksville, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Were you raised in Clarksville?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Go to school there?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How far did you go to school?
Mr. NORMAN. I graduated there.
Mr. BALL. From high school?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In Clarksville?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do after you got out of school?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I remember working in Salina. I did a car washing job at the McElroy Chevrolet Co., and after I left there I came to Dallas and I started working at the depository, the School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. That was about what year did you start working there?
Mr. NORMAN. In 1961, I believe.
Mr. BALL. 1961?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I think this coming October would have made 3 years.
Mr. BALL. And you work there now?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where do you work now?
Mr. NORMAN. The Foxboro Co.
Mr. BALL. What kind of business is that?
Mr. NORMAN. Engineer instrumentation.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do?
Mr. NORMAN. Porter.
Mr. BALL. When did you leave the Texas School Book Depository for this new job?
Mr. NORMAN. I left during the Christmas holidays and the New Year's leave after we got off for New Year's.
Mr. BALL. In November 1963, this is this last fall, what kind of work were you doing at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. NORMAN. I was employed as an order filler.
Mr. BALL. Is that the same kind of a job that Lee Oswald had?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you know him?
Mr. NORMAN. No; just as an employee, that is all.
Mr. BALL. You didn't know him before he came to work there?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you get acquainted with him after he was there?
Mr. NORMAN. No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't
Mr. BALL. He didn't talk to anybody?
Mr. NORMAN. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever engage him in conversation at the time he was there?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. I just, you know, speak to him, that is all. I wouldn't engage in conversation.
Mr. BALL. Are you the boys that use clipboards?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The order fillers?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Somebody gives you orders by way of papers?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What do you do after you get an order on a paper?
Mr. NORMAN. We had a different publisher in the building, and each individual, he had a publisher that he would take, maybe I would take to a Publisher and the other orders would and we would fill orders and bring them down to the first floor for them to be checked and shipped out.
Mr. BALL. You have to go up and get the books out of cartons, do you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. If we didn't have enough down in the bins down on the first floor we would have to go upstairs, to complete the orders.
Mr. BALL. Do you fill some of your orders from the first floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How many floors did you go to that morning yourself, November 22? Can you remember that?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe I went as far as the fifth floor that morning.
Mr. BALL. That is as far--
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't---yes, I went up that morning during the time I think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there.
Mr. BALL. Did you help them?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze.
Mr. BALL. Now, what about Lee Oswald. Do you know what publisher he filled orders for?
Mr. NORMAN. I knew Scott-Foresman.
Mr. BALL. Scott-Foresman.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That was the publisher assigned to him?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. Well, I don't know if he was assigned to him but he filled, you know.
Mr. BALL. He filled those orders?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You say then he filled Scott-Foresman book orders?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you know where those books were kept?
Mr. NORMAN. The majority of them were on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. They were?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And did you also keep a stock of Scott-Foresman books on the first floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What time did you get to work on the morning of November the 22d?
Mr. NORMAN. I got there I would say about 5 minutes of 8 o'clock, 5 minutes until 8 in the morning.
Mr. BALL. You weren't late?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I wasn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald when you got to work?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing him when I got to work.
Mr. BALL. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that.
Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?
Mr. NORMAN. Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. On what floor?
Mr. NORMAN. The first.
Mr. BALL. Looking out on Elm through windows, is that right?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. I was looking out the window. He happened to come by to fill orders.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you?
Mr. NORMAN. No; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him?
Mr. NORMAN. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him at any time after that?
Mr. NORMAN. No; no more. I don't recall seeing him any more that day.
Mr. BALL. What time did you quit for lunch?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe I quit around 11:45, I think.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you quit?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I went in, washed up and I--
Mr. BALL. When you go in and wash up, where did you go to wash up?
Mr. NORMAN. In the men's bathroom.
Mr. BALL. Is that bathroom near the domino room or off the domino room?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; that is the one off the domino room.
Mr. BALL. It is the one near the domino room?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; one near the domino room.
Mr. BALL. Right next to it?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. After you washed up, what did you do?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I got my lunch, I ate my lunch in the domino room.
Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch from home that day?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe I did.
Mr. BALL. And in what kind of a package did you bring it?
Mr. NORMAN. A brown paper sack, paper bag.
Mr. BALL. Where did you keep your lunch or leave your lunch from 8 in the morning until you got it at noon?
Mr. NORMAN. I left it in the window of the domino room.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice any other packages in that window that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't say that I noticed any that morning but I know that some of the fellows did keep their lunches in there.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything, any unusual package in there that day?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. You got your lunch and did you eat your lunch?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I ate my lunch.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you ate your lunch?
Mr. NORMAN. In the domino room, as I recall.
Mr. BALL. Who was with you at that time?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember who ate in the lunchroom, I mean the domino room, with me.
Mr. BALL. Did some other employees eat there?
Mr. NORMAN. I think there was someone else in there because we usually played dominoes in there but that particular day we didn't play that morning.
Mr. BALL. Why didn't you play that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, didn't nobody show up there to play like the guys usually come in to play.
Mr. BALL. You usually play dominoes during the noon hour?
Mr. NORMAN. Noon hour and the break period.
Mr. BALL. After you ate your lunch, what did you do?
Mr. NORMAN. I got with James Jarman, he and I got together on the first floor.
Mr. BALL. Where was James Jarman when you got together with him?
Mr. NORMAN. He was somewhere in the vicinity of the telephone, I believe. I am not for sure.
Mr. BALL. Out near the bins?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What do you call James Jarman?
Mr. NORMAN. Junior.
Mr. BALL. And you and Junior did what?
Mr. NORMAN. We went outside.
Mr. BALL. You went out the front door, did you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That is the Elm Street?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?
Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. On the sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. We didn't go any further than that point.
Mr. BALL. What time was it that you went out there?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say, I don't know exactly, around 12 or 12:10, something like that.
Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce.
Mr. BALL. And who else?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building?
Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the one you pull the gate.
Mr. BALL. That is right. It is a push button elevator.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you went up to the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Usually, one reason was you usually fill orders, I fill quite a few orders from the fifth floor and I figured I could get, you know, a better view of the parade or motorcade or whatever it is from the fifth floor because I was more familiar with that floor.
Mr. BALL. And what did you and Junior do after you got off the elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. We walked around to the windows facing Elm Street and I can't recall if any were open or not but I remember we opened some, two or three windows ourselves.
Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you there?
Mr. NORMAN. Bonnie Ray, I can't remember if he was there when we got there or he came later. I know he was with us a period of time later.
Mr. BALL. And then did he come down before the President's motorcade came by?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by.
Mr. BALL. Did you move around any from one window to another before the motorcade?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, if I did I didn't move no further than those three windows that were open in the front there. I didn't move any further than that.
Mr. BALL. I show you some pictures here. This is Commission Exhibit No. 482.
Do you recognize anybody in that window?
Mr. NORMAN. That is myself and that is Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr. BALL. "Myself" is pointed to as to the window in the extreme southeast corner of the fifth floor, is that right?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And Bonnie Ray is in the window next to you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. I show you 480. Do you see the window in which you were looking?
Mr. NORMAN. That window is where I was looking.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you were looking in the extreme southeast corner?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Put over here a red arrow which shows the window from which you were looking.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Here is 482. Do you see your picture in that window?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The same picture?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Point out your picture on 482.
Mr. NORMAN. That is myself.
Mr. BALL. I will point that out with a red arrow on 482. Now were you standing up or sitting down?
Mr. NORMAN. I was sitting. I wasn't at all standing up.
Mr. BALL., At the time the President's motorcade went by, how were you sitting?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe I wasn't on my knees I don't think, but I was in a bunched over position somewhat like this.
Mr. BALL. Last Friday afternoon, that is March 20. you and Junior Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams went up on the fifth floor with me, didn't you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And a photographer?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you took a position; did you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What position did you take at the window? First of all, what did I ask you to do? What position did I ask you to take?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe you told us to take the position that we thought we were in during the time of the motorcade.
Mr. BALL. And do you recognize this picture, 486? Do you show in the picture?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is myself there.
Mr. BALL. You are sitting there looking out a window. How does that picture compare with what you remember as to your position when the President's motorcade went by?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't think--I think I was facing the window more straight during that time, I mean the motorcade, that I am in this position here.
Mr. BALL. That picture shows you looking out the window down the street, is that right?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And this is a picture of Bonnie Ray also, isn't it?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now you saw the President go by, did you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What happened then?
Mr. NORMAN. About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking to the public.
Mr. McCLOY. Saluting?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. With which arm?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe
it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you?
Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle. I didn't tell I think I hear anybody moving, you know.
Mr. BALL. But you thought, do you remember you told the men then that you thought you heard the ejection of the rifle?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And shells on the floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Falling?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything as to where they thought the shots came from?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't recall of either one of them saying they thought where it came from.
Mr. BALL. But You did?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you said you thought it came from where?
Mr. NORMAN. Above where we were, above us.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any dust or dirt falling?
Mr. NORMAN. I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray Williams hair.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about it?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe Jarman told him that it was in his hair first. Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to brush it out his hair but I think he did anyway.
Mr. BALL. After that happened, what did you do?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway.
Mr. BALL. The farthest window, is that right?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram of this fifth floor.
Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt there.
Mr. BALL. Go right ahead.
Mr. McCLOY. You spoke about seeing the President sort of slump over after the first shot?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe the first.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President hit on any subsequent shots?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing that.
Mr. BALL. Here is a diagram of the sixth floor.
Mr. NORMAN. The sixth floor?
Mr. BALL. Of the fifth floor rather, which is Commission's 487, and this is the southeast corner window. To what window did you and your two friends run?
Mr. NORMAN. This is the south. This is the window we were in. We came to this last, I believe it is the next to the last or the last window on this end here, right here.
Mr. BALL. And the other day when you were up on the fifth floor with a photographer, you ran to that window, did you?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the window, we thought it was the window we ran to.
Mr. BALL. And you opened that window?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And had your picture taken?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Here is 485. Is that the window as you remembered it that you ran to?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't say it was that particular window that day but it was between these two windows here.
Mr. BALL. One of the two windows?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. This is marked Y here on 487, is that correct?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards the railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why everybody was running that way for. I thought maybe--
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember anyone saying about going up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Then did you leave that window that you have marked Y on 487?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you went to what window?
Mr. NORMAN. To the west window.
Mr. BALL. Look on the diagram and tell me what window you went to, as you remember it?
Mr. NORMAN. It was between this point here, these two right here.
Mr. BALL. That is marked Z?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Is that correct?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes,
Mr. BALL. What did you do when you went to that window?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember if we raised the window or not but I remember looking out the window that day.
Mr. BALL. Here is a picture 489 taken last Friday when you were with me on that floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you show in the picture--
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that the window you looked out of?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I believe that is the one.
Mr. BALL. What did you look at when you looked out that window?
Mr. NORMAN. We saw the policeman, and I guess they were detectives, they were searching the empty cars over there. I remember seeing some guy on top of them.
Mr. BALL. On top of the cars?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. They were going through there.
Mr. BALL. You saw police officers searching cars over on the. railroad tracks?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay at that window?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember, but it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you
Mr. NORMAN. We ran down to the first floor.
Mr. BALL. As you were at the fifth floor, looking west as shown in Exhibit No. 489, were you able to see the stairwell?
Mr. NORMAN. No.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mr. NORMAN. Because there is a row of bins there that prevents you standing in a position that I was in to keep you from seeing it.
Mr. BALL. There is 492. Does that show the row of bins?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the row of bins.
Mr. BALL. They block off the stairwell.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember that we tried an experiment when you were there by putting you three men in line and then taking a picture to see if we could see any one of you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. This is a picture 491. That is your picture, isn't it?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where are you?
Mr. NORMAN. In the middle.
Mr. BALL. And who is that on the end?
Mr. NORMAN. Which end? Oh, this is Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr. BALL. Who is this one?
Mr. NORMAN. James Jarman.
Mr. BALL. And then a picture, do you remember another picture was taken, 492?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember that picture.
Mr. BALL. Can you see anyone in that picture?
Mr. NORMAN. I see one person.
Mr. BALL. Can you make him out?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. I recognize him as James Jarman.
Mr. BALL. Jarman, the one on the end?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now did you see any police officer come up on that floor?
Mr. NORMAN. I didn't.
Mr. BALL. You didn't.
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or did you see Mr. Truly come up?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Or did you hear any elevator operator
Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall.
Mr. BALL. Going up or down?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't recall anyone.
Mr. BALL. When you were brought to the first floor or when you came to the first floor how did you go down there?
Mr. NORMAN. We came down the stairway. I remember we came down the stairway.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor did someone talk to you, police officers?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember a police officer talking to me as soon as we got down there. I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did anyone talk to you later?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. NORMAN. I guess they were Secret Service men. But I know they talked to us.
Mr. BALL. Did they take you over to the police station later?
Mr. NORMAN. No; they didn't carry me to the police station.
Mr. BALL. When did you leave the place?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere around 2 o'clock, somewhere in the vicinity of that.
Mr. BALL. Who did you leave with?
Mr. NORMAN. Mr. James Jarman. I can't remember who.
Mr. BALL. From the time that you went down on the first floor until you left the building to go home did you leave the building at all?
Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Where did you stay?
Mr. NORMAN. They kept us on the first floor.
Mr. BALL. You did make a statement later to the Secret Service, didn't you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. I have here a document 493, which is a copy of a statement made by this witness, which I now mark 493.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 493, for identification.)
Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.
Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."
Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.
Mr. BALL. I see. Did you tell them that you heard the bolt action of the rifle?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And that you heard the expended cartridges fall to the floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I heard them making a sound.
Mr. BALL. I would like to offer this into evidence.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 493 for identification, was received in evidence. )
Mr. McCLOY. You used the expression you heard the ejection. This refers to the bolt action?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Those are the same things?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is what I mean.
Mr. McCLOY. That is what you meant by that?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What language did you use when you talked to the Secret Service man, do you know? Did you say you heard the ejection or that you heard the bolt action? Which did you use?
Mr. NORMAN. I probably said the ejection.
Mr. BALL. That is what you think you said?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The same thing you said here?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember Friday that we conducted an experiment to see whether or not you could hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. From the sixth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And where did you put yourself in order to conduct the experiment?
Mr. NORMAN. In the same window. I may not have been in the same position but I was in the same window.
Mr. BALL. The same window?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And that window was open?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And the window, was the window on the sixth floor also open?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; they told me it was open. I didn't see it.
Mr. BALL. And a Secret Service man went upstairs with a rifle, didn't he?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did you hear on the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard three something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the rifle or whatever he had up there.
Mr. BALL. You could hear the rifle, the sound of an ejection?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of the bolt going back and forth?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I sure did.
Mr. BALL. You could hear it clearly, could you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now there has been a new floor put in on the sixth floor, hasn't there?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The day that you were there on November 22, what was the condition of the ceiling and the floor of the sixth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. I would say that you could see daylight through there because during the times they put the plywood down you can see the plywood, some portion of the plywood, so I would say you could see a little daylight during that time.
Mr. BALL. When you were there Friday afternoon, did you look up at the ceiling from where you were sitting at the southeast window on the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What could you see on the ceiling?
Mr. NORMAN. There was one place I could see the plywood and then another place you could still see a little daylight, I mean peering through the crack.
Mr. BALL. What about the joint where the upper floor or the floor of the sixth and ceiling of the fifth. floor comes against the wall. Could you see daylight through there?
Mr. NORMAN. Against the wall?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; in one place you could see a small amount of daylight.
Mr. BALL. Now the day or the experiment last Friday when you heard the cartridges eject, the bolt action and the cartridges ejecting---
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was there any noise outside?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; there was.
Mr. BALL. What was it?
Mr. NORMAN. There was a train and there were trucks and cars.
Mr. BALL. Was there more noise or less noise on the day you conducted the experiment last Friday, March 20, than on November 22, at 12:30?
Mr. NORMAN. It was more noise last Friday than it was November 22.
Mr. BALL. Was there any train going by on November 22?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were there any trucks going by on November 22?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
Mr. McCLOY. How did you get your job at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, as I remember the time that I told you before I used to live in Salina and washing cars at the Chevrolet company I had a friend that lived in Dallas and he was working down there, and he told me that he thought that I could get a job down there, and that is how I got familiar with the place. I did go by there and Mr. Truly gave me a job.
Mr. McCLOY. Were you getting better pay there than you had at your former job?
Mr. NORMAN. At the Chevrolet company?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I was getting better pay there.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?
Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there and went down to the did you go down to the fourth floor first or did you go all the way down?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe we went all the way.
Mr. McCLOY. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you got down on the first floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes, somewhere like that.
Mr. McCLOY. I don't think I have any other question.
Mr. BALL. I have one question.
On the 26th of November, an FBI agent named Kreutzer advises us in a report that he talked to you. Do you remember that?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You remember?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I remember talking to him. I don't know his name.
Mr. BALL. He reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above you. Did you tell him that?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't recall telling him that.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever put your head out the window?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't remember ever putting my head out the window.
Mr. BALL. And he reports that you stated that two additional shots were fired after you pulled your head back in from the window. Do you remember telling him that?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
Mr. McCLOY. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law? Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. At the time after you heard the shots, did you have any thought that you might run upstairs and see if anybody was up there where the shots were coming from there?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you feel that it might be dangerous to go upstairs?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. You testified that you had not seen Oswald except this one occasion in the morning. Did you hear any of your friends or coworkers say whether they had seen Oswald on that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. Not until after
Mr. McCLOY. After the assassination?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is the only time.
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs? Did you come out the front door?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing Mr. Brennan.
Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that?
Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet.
Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called you over?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. There was quite a few people standing around there.
Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these comments?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember.
Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the building or come back?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside.
The CHAIRMAN. You had to go back?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you went out in front?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And then came back?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. After you had gone to the first floor.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Did law enforcement officers make you go back or did you do it on your own initiative?
Mr. NORMAN. I remember, I don't know if this is the only time or not, but I remember the law enforcement saying not to let anybody leave from the building and I can't remember if that is the time we went back in the building or before or what.
Mr. BALL. Who did you go out with?
Mr. NORMAN. I know James Jarman and I went out, I can't remember--
Representative FORD. May I ask did we get into the testimony enough of his background and biography?
Mr. BALL. Clear from where he was born, through high school and all his jobs through high school.
He is 26 years old, married and never been in any trouble in his life. I think that is all.
Mr. McCLOY. Thank you, Mr. Norman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for coming.