The testimony of Mrs. Bertha Cheek was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April 14, 1964 in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burr W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the Presidentads Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. I am Burt Griffin. I am a member the advisory staff of the General Counsel's office of the President's Cornmission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I want to tell you a little bit about the Commission and what our purpose is and so forth, Mrs. Cheek, before we actually get into the taking of the testimony.
The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson which was issued on November 30, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. Under these two official acts, the Commission has been given authority to take testimony and to promulgate rules and regulations and so forth. Under these rules and regulations, I have been designated to come here to Dallas to take your testimony. Did you receive a letter from the Commission?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I might tell you that under--I don't know when you received this letter, but under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have 3 days' written notice, a letter from us 3 days before you appear here to testify, an presume that the letter arrived in time so that you have had that notice?
Mrs. CHEEK. Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday. Now, also the Commission's rules provide that if you would like an attorney, that you may be accompanied here by an atttorney, and I notice that you don't have one.
I did want to acquaint you with this fact, and I presume that since you don't


have one, that you felt you didn't need one. But if you do feel you would like a personal attorney, and many of the people who appear do have an attorney, that is perfectly proper, and in fact it is encouraged by the Commission. But I take it by your presence without an attorney, that you don't feel you want one at the present time.
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't think that I would need one. I don't know anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I am not suggesting that you would, but I wanted you to be acquainted.
Mrs. CHEEK. I am not going to tell anything that is not the truth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say this to you, that the Commission has been set up for the purpose of investigating and evaluating and reporting back to President Johnson about the assassination of President Kennedy, and about the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. We are interested in finding out from you, in particular, anything you might know in connection with any one of these events.
Of course you have been interviewed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation so that that is somewhat of a starting point for us. I have had a chance to read over the reports and I know generally what they have talked to you about. I will ask you if you have any questions of us before I ask you to be sworn, and then we can start the deposition.
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't have any questions. You just ask me, and I will answer whatever I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give us your name.
Mrs. CHEEK. Bertha Cheek.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Cheek?
Mrs. CHEEK. 5901 Hillcrest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is Mrs. Cheek?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your husband's name?
Mrs. CHEEK. I am divorced. Lloyd Cheek.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been divorced from Mr. Cheek?
Mrs. CHEEK. Approximately 1955 or approximately 1956, I can't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I hate to ask this question of a lady, but when were you born?
Mrs. CHEEK. February 9, 1920.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The address you gave us is in Dallas?
Mrs. CHEEK. 5901 Hillcrest, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in Dallas?
Mrs. CHEEK. About 16 or 17 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you live before you lived in Dallas?
Mrs. CHEEK. I was born in Troup, Tex., and I was raised in Tyler, and I moved to Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now since you have lived in Dallas, have you met Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CHEEK. I met him on two occasions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first happen to meet Jack?
Mrs. CHEEK. He called me to invest in a nightclub.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mrs. CHEEK. Oh, sometime in November, the latter part of November, I think it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time?
Mrs. CHEEK. The first time I don't remember. 3ust what year it might have been, could have been 1957 or 1958, I don't know. Whenever he was over here in the Carousel, and he was trying to sell half of it, and I talked to him about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He owned the Carousel at the time he called you the first time?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he want to sell you half of the Carousel?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you invested in any nightclubs before?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; but I am in the real estate business, and I invest in properties all the time.


Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. How long have you been in the real estate business?
Mrs. CHEEK. Seventeen years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a broker's license?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of your business?
Mrs. CHEEK. Bertha Cheek. I just go by my own name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you maintain an office any place?
Mrs. CHEEK. In my home. I usually sell my own property. Buy and sell. I handle other people's property at times, but very seldom.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of real estate do you handle?
Mrs. CHEEK. Residential real estate, apartments, and houses and lots.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many homes or pieces of real estate have you sold outside of your own real estate?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some sort of estimate how many that would be?
Mrs. CHEEK. I really couldn't give you an estimate because I don't know. It's been very little.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be as many as 10 pieces of real estate other than your own?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; not that many.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you own the address that you are presently living in?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a rooming house that you are in?
Mrs. CHEEK. No. I have a couple of rooms rented to SMU students.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived at your present address?
Mrs. CHEEK. I moved there in January. Bought it in August.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I See. And prior to January--is that of this year, January 1964?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you live prior to January 1964?
Mrs. CHEEK. Swiss. 3914 Swiss. I have a 10-unit there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You still own that?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you own that particular residence? How long have you owned that particular residence on Swiss Avenue?
Mrs. CHEEK. Three or four years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the 3 or 4 years that you have owned that particular residence, have you owned any other pieces of property?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other places that you rent out rooms?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us what those were?
Mrs. CHEEK. 5430 Gaston; 5310 Gaston; 5212 Gaston; 5302 Gaston; 591---wait just a minute---5917 Gaston; the Beachcomber and the Holiday Apartments.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you live prior to living at the Swiss Avenue address?
Mrs. CHEEK. At the Beachcomber and the Holiday Apartments, Gaston Avenue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were living in 1958?
Mrs. CHEEK. 5302 Gaston.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now in 1958, what pieces of real estate did you own other than 5308, the one you just mentioned?
Mrs. CHEEK. 5302.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What pieces of real estate did you own in 1958, other than that?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know. I would have to go back. I have owned quite a bit of property.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you maintain a set of records as to the property?
Mrs. CHEEK. That I own at the present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that you have owned over the years?
Mrs. CHEEK. On the courthouse records, just to go down and check.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about rental records for those places that you have rented out rooms and suites, do you maintain records for those?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far back do your records go?


Mrs. CHEEK. I have them back to 1947.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We haven't asked you to bring any records.
Mrs. CHEEK. Not down here, I couldn't bring them all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am wondering if----
Mrs. CHEEK. The man went through those records at the house. I let them go all through whatever they wanted to when they came out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. And I told them what connection I had in connection with Jack Ruby. He asked me to put $6,000 in a nightclub.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am wondering if I could ask you if you will make those records available again? I think what I would like to do is ask one of the Secret Service agents to go out there and either make some arrangements to photocopy them and then return them to you, or else if it would be more convenient to let me look at them for some short period of time, and then return them to you. I think I would prefer to photocopy them, unless they are voluminous and it would be prohibitive. I think I would only be going back to January 1959.
Mrs. CHEEK. Those two men went through everything I had and looked at it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you object if I----
Mrs. CHEEK. It is just an awful lot of trouble for me right now because I am very busy and I have illness in my home. If I thought I could help you, and really if there is anything there, I would bring them down myself to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to do this in a way that would be least inconvenient.
Mrs. CHEEK. But I don't know Oswald and I just knew Jack Ruby when he asked me to invest $6,000 and I didn't do it. I didn't like the way he wanted me to invest. He wanted to put in $1,000, and me $6,000.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be the least inconvenient way to do this? If perhaps all the books are in one place, we could get the books from January 1, 1959, on to the present and photocopy them in a day and then return them to you. Would that be convenient?
Mrs. CHEEK. I have them stored, is the only thing. I have a lot of things in front, and it is difficult in digging it out, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I suppose really--is there going to be anytime in the next week or so that would be more convenient for you than any other time?
Mrs. CHEEK. I really don't know of anything else. My daughter has cancer. She may be well and she may not be, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Would you retain these records, and sometime during the next month, let me ask one of the agents to contact you again in connection with getting copies of them for us, and you could work out at that time what would be most convenient to you. If you don't like it that way, then suggest it some other way, because I want to do this some way that would be least inconvenient to you.
Mrs. CHEEK. Well, you are welcome to come to see them again as far as that is concerned, but I don't want to let them go out of my hands. I am not going to let them go from me, because if some of those things are missing, it is my fault. The men can come out there any time and look them over if they want to look them over and take pictures or whatever they may want to do, or copy them all off. They can come out there and just copy every name that I have ever had or ever rented to from the time of 1947, if they would like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If this were done at your home, that would be the best so far as you are concerned?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I will have to go get them. I never have moved them from Swiss Avenue, and they are in the storage house. I will have to go over and get them and bring them over to Hillcrest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different boxes are we talking about?
Mrs. CHEEK. Everything I have ever owned, I guess is what I was going to give you. That is what I did before. Every record I have, every name that I ever rented to, I give it to the men that was out there and you may have them now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sure we don't want to go back that far. Well, let me see what we can work out, with the Secret Service or the Bureau, and then I will either contact you myself about it or I will ask someone of the agents to


do it, and I think it could be done fairly simply. I know in the past that photographers can set the camera on a kitchen table and run these things through. I take it then when Jack Ruby contacted you in connection with buying out a part of the Carousel Club, that he got your name from somebody?
Mrs. CHEEK. I Was looking at a piece of property over on Maple Avenue when Olen Alexander or Bob Shockley, two more agents called me about buying the place myself. I went over to look at the building and they asked me what would go in the building, and I think a nice nightclub, it is in the neighborhood like it would, so I guess they gave it to Jack Ruby because when I mentioned the nightclub, because I said I might even invest in it myself, I was so sold on it, so Jack Ruby called me and asked me if I would invest in it. Not this particular piece of property. He didn't tell me where he had this location, but I just know that that was how he got my name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are we talking about your most recent discussion with Jack or the first one?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's talk about the first time you contacted Jack.
Mrs. CHEEK. He had it for sale.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He had the Carousel for sale?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; and I had someone that was interested in a night club, so I went down to see about it, see how much he would sell it for, and he said $12,500. I said that was too much. My conversation was very short, and I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, you met him at the Carousel?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody with him at that time? Anybody else at this meeting?
Mrs. CHEEK. There was activity all in there. I don't know who the people were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody accompany you in connection with this?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I think Mrs. Davidson went down with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Davidson? What is her first name?
Mrs. CHEEK. Lula B. Davidson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does she live here in Dallas?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?
Mrs. CHEEK. Over on Normandy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she in the real estate business?
Mrs. CHEEK. No. She was a schoolteacher of mine. Just happened to be at the house when I started to go down, and I asked her if she would like to go. She taught me in school in Tyler, Tex. I don't think that she would remember too much about it because it was such a--just went down with me. It wasn't a real big issue made, and I said, "Would you like to go with me to see about a nightclub," and she said, "Yes; I would." So I just walked up and talked to Jack Ruby and asked him how much he wanted for the club's half interest, and he said $12,500, and I left because I didn't think it was worth it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack had an advertisement in the newspaper about this?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you first called Jack, what did he tell you when you talked to him over the telephone that time?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't remember the exact words. I usually tell people when I contact them about business, I would like to meet them in their office or in their place of business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make an appointment and go down? You didn't talk to him about what he wanted or what kind of property he had over the telephone?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; didn't make any discussion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack's ad indicate he was selling the full interest, or half interest?
Mrs. CHEEK. Half, and he wanted a partner.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have been a partner?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; I wouldn't. When I invest, I make a corporation out of


it, or someone else operates the-business for me. That is the way the rooming houses; I have managers in them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you about how much he was making off of this business?
Mrs. CHEEK. No. He might have talked to me about that, but I don't remember the exact figures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to the conclusion that his price was too high?
Mrs. CHEEK. I just thought it was too high. I could build a club for that. I know the prices of material.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack was only interested in selling an interest in the real estate at that time, or was he interested in the----
Mrs. CHEEK. The business. He didn't have the real estate. He didn't have the building. It was just the business he was selling half interest in it. I could buy a place for that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have been interested in the profitability of Jack's particular business?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; not his particular business. I didn't know what kind of club he was operating out there. I thought it was a dance place and cocktail lounge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But in order to determine whether the twelve thousand price was too high and you weren't going to get any real estate out of it, you were going to share in the profits from the club, you would have to know something about how much money he was making off the club?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't remember how much he was making.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did talk to him; didn't you?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I talked to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He said he wanted $12,500 for half of the business?
Mrs. CHEEK. I didn't look at the books. I didn't even go into that because I didn't want to put $12,500 into that kind of club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk to him on this occasion?
Mrs. CHEEK. It wasn't very long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him for 3 hours?
Mrs. CHEEK. I just don't know how long I talked to him the first time, because it's been so long ago. But the last time I stayed down there, I think, an hour or so or 3. It might have been 3 hours or 2 hours, because he brought in this other fellow named Frank, his interior decorator, or that decorated the club, and I talked to him, and he was telling me what a nice fellow he was, because I didn't know Jack Ruby very well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Frank's name Frank Fisher? Do you remember that name?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; I don't know. He just kept referring to him as Frank.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether this fellow was in business for himself or whether he worked with somebody, this Frank fellow?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear the name of whom he might have been employed by?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now as I understand it, Jack at this particular time got your name through somebody, a fellow by the name of Alexander, or another fellow that you talked to in connection with buying a club?
Mrs. CHEEK. Olen Alexander.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the club?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know that to be the truth, but I just thought that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the club that you were looking at?
Mrs. CHEEK. It wasn't a club. It was a building that they were showing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that located?
Mrs. CHEEK. On Maple.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had an interest in any nightclub or dancehall?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time of the day or night was it that you met with Jack this last occasion?


Mrs. CHEEK. 2 o'clock in the evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the afternoon?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was at the Carousel?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; in his office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack called you, what did he say to you?
Mrs. CHEEK. Said he had a business deal that he wanted to talk over me. I said, "What kind is it?"
And he said, "A club." And asked me to come down to talk to him about it and I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate at the time he called you how much money he wanted you to invest?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now when you got down there to talk to him, what did he say and what did you say? Try to recall as best you can how this conversation was.
Mrs. CHEEK. He said he had a location for a club and he wanted me to put in $6,000 and he'd put $1,000 and he would use his talent and ability to operate a club, and he knew really how to run one and operate one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate what sort of return he expected?
Mrs. CHEEK. Fifty-fifty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Each would have a half interest in the club?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate how much of a return you would make foryour $6,000?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; he didn't. He couldn't even tell me the location of the place, because I asked him that, kept questioning him about where is thelocation, and he didn't want to tell me that. And I asked him why, and he said, "Well, he just couldn't tell me right then." And I said, "Is it because you think I might go around and sell this place or try to buy it myself?" And He said, "How would' you do about anything like that?" And I said, "Well, you tie it up. Put some money up on it."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it sound like Jack was interested in buying a piece of real estate, or was he going to get a lease and operate in a leased building, or what?
Mrs. CHEEK. He didn't go into that. He just kept talking about how he could operate a club, how much money could be made, you know, and he introduced me to this other fellow and talked about what a good interior decorator he was and how he would decorate the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did the interior decorator say?
Mrs. CHEEK. Then the man was telling me what a good operator he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about his experience in other places he decorated?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; one or two places; but I really didn't pay any attention to what locations. I was just listening to Mr. Ruby on what his deal was on the investment I was supposed to make, and whether or not I would like it or not, and I told him I could manage a business, too. And I said, "I don't think that I would want to go in with anyone and put $6,000 and you put $1,000. You would have to come fifty-fifty."
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack indicate was his response?
Mrs. CHEEK. He said he couldn't do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell from his response whether he meant that he didn't want to do it or that he couldn't afford to do it, or what he meant by that?
Mrs. CHEEK. Well, he did say he didn't have the money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say he didn't have the money?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now had you inquired about Jack Ruby from other people?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean now you only met him?
Mrs. CHEEK. I had heard people talk about Jack Ruby, but I didn't inquire about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it other people that you know had told you things about Jack Ruby?


Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. I have heard people talk about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What had you heard about Jack prior to the time you went to talk to him about this club where he wouldn't tell you where it was located?
Mrs. CHEEK. I haven't heard anything except he ran the Carousel Club and was a good operator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You had heard what kind of businessman he was? How well he ran his business?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard whether he was honest or dishonest?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you heard?
Mrs. CHEEK. I just knew he run a club and I heard people say that he was a good operator, and I figured if he was a good operator and made money, he must have been a good businessman. You don't make money unless you are a good operator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who it was that told you Jack was a good operator?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't recall right off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you had the impression that Jack was able to make money off of his operations?
Mrs. CHEEK. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do any of your friends or acquaintances or tenants know Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CHEEK. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all who it might have been that had known Jack well enough to tell you that he was running his business well?
Mrs. CHEEK. I think it was a policeman that had rented from me that I had talked to occasionally and said something about Jack Ruby's place. I don't know just who it was that told me, and their name. I would be talking to someone sometime, and I can't remember their names to save my life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the policeman?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you had a number of policemen rent from you?
Mrs. CHEEK. I think Mr. Olson said something--I am not sure of the name--on the police force. I wouldn't like to say anything else unless I know for sure I can give the exact name and address. I just heard this conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----
Mrs. CHEEK. See.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did the police officer whose name might have been Olson, when did he rent from you?
Mrs. CHEEK. Beachcomber in 1961 or 1960, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he continue to rent from you?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't think he rented there very long, 3 or 4 months. But this was after. Let's see, no, it wasn't after. That was after the first time I had met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, other than Mr. Olson, you don't know of anybody else of your acquaintances or tenants who knew Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CHEEK. No. You know, his name has been in the paper and his advertising; and I am sure a lot of people had heard about him and go to the club, but I had never gone to the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did your husband know Jack Ruby? Mr. Cheek, did he know Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CHEEK. No. I don't know whether he did or not. He may know Jack Ruby because he is a National Cash Register man downtown that fixes all of the cash registers. He might have gone up and worked on a cash register. I really don't know. I haven't asked him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI talked with you sometime ago. I believe you indicated that you had some recollection that some Cubans had rented from you back in 1959, two Cubans had rented from you?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know just exactly what was said on that, whether they got that off of the books or whether my sister had told them about it, that rented to Oswald over on Beckley.


Mrs. CHEEK. Mrs. Roberts or Miss Roberts--Mrs- Roberts----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Miss?
Mrs. CHEEK. Mrs. Roberts. I don't know whether she told me about that or if they got it off the book, or whether I had rented to a Cuban. I think one or two, and also Dr. Florescent of the Philippine Islands.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what recollection you have of the Cubans that you rented to.
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't remember them because I had managers in there. I wouldn't know them personally myself at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you, Mrs. Cheek, a document which consists of 3 pages, and it purports to be an interview report prepared by two agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Barry and Mr. Kelley. This is supposed to have been a copy of a report of interview which they had with you on November 27, 1963. Maybe if you will look this over, you may recall it is reported in here that at that time--I will read it:
"That she recalled hating rented to two Cuban males, in 1959 or 1960, but could provide no other information concerning them." Why don't you take your time and read that whole thing over, because I am interested in finding out whether the whole report is an accurate report of that interview.
Mrs. CHEEK. I owned this boarding house at 5212 Gaston since 1948 to about 1961.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does it say?
Mrs. CHEEK. It says 1956 to 1961.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to take Miss Laidrich's pen and make a change there to reflect the period that you actually owned, that boarding house, the actual period?
Mrs. CHEEK. [Makes correction.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you sold it in 1961?
Mrs. CHEEK. I think that is about the date that I sold it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to initial that change there that you made and put a date by it?
Mrs. CHEEK. [Initials and dates.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is 4-14-64. Why don't you go ahead and take your time to read it through and make any other corrections.
Mrs. CHEEK. I have got to go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Cheek has indicated that her daughter is in the hospital and she told me earlier, and would like to recess this. Perhaps we can set another time to continue it.
Mrs. CHEEK. I thought that I was only going to be here about 15 minutes, and I was supposed to talk to the doctor about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't want to keep you then. How would Thursday be? Would you be able to come back at any time on Thursday?
Mrs. CHEEK. Could I give you any other kind of information on my records or what else do you want me to tell you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Actually, if you could bring with you----
Mrs. CHEEK. I can't bring all those records down here. They are welcome to go out to the house and make a copy of every name I ever rented to, but I can't bring them all down here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, suppose we handle it this way.
Mrs. CHEEK. They were welcome that day I gave them every record I had, and I told them they could copy all the names down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose we contact one of the agents and have somebody photograph these records, and then perhaps next Monday, why we could resume the deposition and I could look through the records with you here and the copies that we have photographed?
Mrs. CHEEK. Do I have to come back?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, because I would like to talk to you about the statements and get any changes that you care to make in the statements, and complete the, topic we are talking about here.
I hate to inconvenience you like this.
Mrs. CHEEK. Well, if I could do you any good, I would be happy to, but I


don't know how I could, because I don't know Jack Ruby or Oswald very well. In fact, I didn't know Oswald at all, and I didn't know Ruby well enough to help you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, any little bit that we can learn can be helpful to us. But I would like to set it up in a way that wouldn't interfere with your problems at home. I think they are substantial. Why don't you name the day and the time.
Mrs. CHEEK. I Can't name the date and the time. I don't know. I didn't expect my daughter to be ill when she was. I only thought she was going to the hospital two days.
I work in real estate. I don't know when I have appointments, and I am trying to sell the place on Hillcrest. I have an appointment this afternoon with the minister out there or one of the men of the church, not the minister, but to try to sell Hillcrest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the mornings, I take it, are better for you than the afternoons? Why don't we make it Monday morning. If 9 o'clock, isn't too early for you, we will start at 9.
Mrs. CHEEK. How much longer do you think it would take on this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't think it would take more than a half hour, but' sometimes it takes time to have you sit here and read through these statements and point out any corrections or changes or additions that you would have to make, and it could take half an hour to an hour, especially if we get these photographs of the records.
Then we can clarify these on these records. Do you remember which apartment it was that the Cubans lived in?
Mrs. CHEEK. That was 5212 Gaston. I think the front room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe if we could just get those records copied. Do you remember what year it was that they--you believe it was 1959 or 1960, when you went through those records with the agents? Were you able to pinpoint those to Cubans who you had there?
Mrs. CHEEK. No. I don't think so. They were looking at the names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So I suppose it would be best if we just got the records since, say, January 1, 1958 to make sure we cover everything, and that would be 1958 through 1961.
Mrs. CHEEK. I think so. That is when I sold the place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, up until the sale. Now, do you recall if these two men ever came back and lived in any other place that you owned?
Mrs. CHEEK. I wouldn't know, because I told you I had managers in my apartment houses and my rooming houses. They did the renting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mrs. CHEEK. Sometimes I rented to people, but----
Mr. GRIFFIN. If we started with January 1, 1958 and got all the records up to the present, how many records, how high a stack of records would we be talking about?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know how high.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different apartments would we be talking about since January 1958?
Mrs. CHEEK. I would just have to go back and look, because I buy and sell all the time and trade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be as many as 10?
Mrs. CHEEK. Could have been more than that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been more than that? Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. Not places, but apartments. See, I had a 32-unit in Oak Cliff, and there was 46 in the Beachcomber Apartments. Then there was people that rented on Gaston Avenue, but see, I just traded back and forth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different buildings did you own since 1958?
Mrs. CHEEK. I really don't know. You'd just have to go down at the courthouse and look. I would have to figure it out. 3518 Gillespie, I sold it though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe what we should do is take 1958 to 1961, and then simply the year 1963, so that we will take 1958 to 1961, for that Gaston building, and we will take 1963 for all these buildings. How many buildings did you own last year, in 1963?


Mrs. CHEEK. 1963, I think 3914 Swiss. I didn't own some of these buildings all the year. I bought and sold and traded, so I would just have to go into all of that.
I sold it in August. And then maybe I sold 3518 Gillespie. I think I sold it in November. I don't remember just the dates that I closed on the Property and sell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think that woud simplify it because we would like, if we can identify these two particular individuals, and it is possible since they lived with you before, they might have moved back into another one that you own.
Mrs. CHEEK. They went over all those records, those men did out there. Mr. Kelley and Mr. Barry, I thought his name was Barrett. That is what he introduced himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whatever it is down there, Barry.
Mrs. CHEEK. I thought he said Barrett.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barry is what is written there anyhow.
Mrs. CHEEK. (Reads reports of interviews.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would Monday morning at 9 or 9:30 be?
Mrs. CHEEK. If you don't think it would be very much longer, I think I have missed the doctor, because I have been here an hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, since we are going to try to get these records, I would almost rather do it with the records, so if there was something with the records, I wouldn't have to call you again, unless you are willing to take a chance on that.
Mrs. CHEEK. Aren't they coming out to the house to take the names down?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it would be easier if they went out with a camera and photographed that. All right, would you prefer to complete it?
Mrs. CHEEK. If it wouldn't. take too much longer. I have an appointment at 1.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It shouldn't take anywhere near that long.
Mrs. CHEEK. I guess I have missed my appointment with the doctor. I wanted to talk to him about my daughter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to call him?
Mrs. CHEEK. May I call?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mrs. CHEEK. (Makes telephone call.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Cheek, have you had a chance to read over what I have marked as Cheek Exhibit No. 5353? It is a three-page report marked 456, 457and 458, of Commission's Document No. 205, which purports to be a report of an interview which FBI Agents Barry and Kelley had with you on November 27. Have you had a chance to read that over?
Mrs. CHEEK. I thought that I read all of this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections or changes?
Mrs. CHEEK. This is all approximate. I wouldn't know. I couldn't swear that about everything. They have $12,000 down there. I thought I remember $12,500 he wanted, but that may have been another piece of property I was thinking about. I don't remember the exact figure. Now on the sale, that was what I was talking about. They had $12,000. I told you today I thought $12,500 is what he wanted.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you weren't able to get a hold of the doctor?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But other than that, you don't feel that you would make any sub-stantial changes in this? What I am directing myself to is whether this report is an accurate report of what you told them at that time? I realize that there may have been things that you will recall that you didn't recall then, but as far as this report being accurate as to what you told them at that time, I take it you are satisfied that it is accurate?
Mrs. CHEEK. I think it is. I might remember something there that I don't remember now. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated that you recall having rented to two Cuban


males in 1959 and 1960. I understand that these two Cubans were living at 5212 Gaston?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that apartment have a name?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How big----
Mrs. CHEEK. It wasn't an apartment. It was a boarding house; room and board.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many rooms did you rent out there?
Mrs. CHEEK. I think it was about 10 rooms that I rented out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who managed that boarding house?
Mrs. CHEEK. I had different managers throughout the year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, in the period 1959 and 1960, who was managing it for you at that time?
Mrs. CHEEK. I would have to look back on my records. Nineteen what, now?
Mr. GRIFFIN. 1959 or 1960?
Mrs. CHEEK. I would have to look back, because managers for boarding houses is like waitresses and cooks, they come and go because you don't pay them very much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when your sister, Mrs. Roberts, was working at or managing your boarding houses?
Mrs. CHEEK. Not the exact date.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether she was managing any boarding house for you back in 1959 or 1960?
Mrs. CHEEK. She might have been at 5430. You would have to ask her. I believe you would have a more correct answer on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that makes you recall that the two Cubans lived at 5212?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know right now just what brought that up or anything. Now my son was there, I think, while the two FBI men were there, and he might have mentioned it, or my sister might have mentioned it, I don't remember. There were two Cubans there, I think. They might have been Cuban and they might not have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think they were Cubans?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know how they got that they were Cubans, because I don't know a Cuban from a Spanish or a Spanish from a Mexican. Like Dr. Florescent, when he come in, he was real dark. I wasn't going to rent because I don't rent to dark Spanish people or Mexicans or Indians. I always rented to light-colored people my own race. But another color, and he was so well dressed and everything and he insisted--this is in 1948, I think. He came in there from the Philippine Islands. He was going to Baylor Hospital to school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the two Cubans?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't really know if I would know they were Cubans or not unless someone told me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that it is unusual to have somebody living at your place who is of Spanish or Latin American background?
Mrs. CHEEK. That it would be what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It would be unusual for you to rent to someone who was Spanish or Latin American or of Cuban background?
Mrs. CHEEK. No, it wouldn't be unusual, because I had rented to people from Mexico at the Beachcomber, very nice people, when I had short rentals there.
They checked in; they were business people; and I had rented to people from, not China, but the Japs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Japanese?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, at the Beachcomber, during the fair. The pearl dealers, I rented to, but on short rentals. And there were just a few that I had a short time at the Beachcomber and I had a set up of maid service and television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When somebody comes in to rent one of the suites, do they contact you?
Mrs. CHEEK. I had managers there, and sometimes I would be there at the Beachcomber.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you given your managers instructions as to the kind of people that they should rent to?
Mrs. CHEEK. Well, they always know what kind of business they are in or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you describe these two people that you thought might have been Cuban?
Mr.s CHEEK. I don't remember them too well. In fact, I don't know why they have Cuban down there, because I would have to talk with him again. When they were going over those records----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they rent----
Mrs. CHEEK. I know there were some people there, either from, they might have been Mexico or Cuban.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they rent the same suite?
Mrs. CHEEK. This is not an apartment. This is 5212 Gaston. This is the rooming house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did each of them have a separate room?
Mrs. CHEEK. No, they both stayed in the same room. In, I think, the front part.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the front part of the house?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did they stay?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't remember. Just take my records and look at them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it when you went through these records with the agents, did you see----
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, I probably saw those names and I recognized it by that or something. I don't remember just exactly how I remembered right at that time, because I was trying to remember everything I could all the way back to try to tell them everything I knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. These two fellows, were they fat or thin?
Mrs. CHEEK. They were small, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they appear to be men in their 20's or 30's or 40's or 50's? How old would you say they were?
Mrs. CHEEK. The two boys that were in the front room at 5212 Gaston were younger fellows.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Under 25, would you say?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they speak English?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know. I guess they speak it very well, enough to get in. I never rented to anyone that couldn't speak English.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they speak with a noticeable accent?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they appear to have a job of any sort?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't remember. I am just trying to remember all, you know. That is a long time back, and renting to so many people, you don't pay that much attention to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you have occasion to talk with them?
Mrs. CHEEK. I never do talk to people unless they talk to me about something about the business, or the room, or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. These two fellows, do you recall ever talking to them on any occasion?
Mrs. CHEEK. I can't remember holding a conversation with them, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that your son was present when the Agents Barry and Kelley interviewed you. Did he have some recollection of these two Cubans?
Mrs. CHEEK. John might have. I think John was there. I believe he was, or Irwin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. These are both your sons?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is their last name Cheek or Cheeks?
Mrs. CHEEK. Cheek.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is John?
Mrs. CHEEK. He is 18.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Irwin?


Mrs. CHEEK. Thirteen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also indicated in your first report that you had been acquainted with Jack Ruby since 1948. What makes you place that date?
Mrs. CHEEK. They asked me--when. 1948?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that is what they reported here.
Mrs. CHEEK. I didn't say 1948. I bought the house in 1948, and it might have been 1956. They have that 1956 down there of me buying 5212 Gaston.
Mrs. CHEEK. I didn't meet Jack Ruby in 1948. 1948 is when I bought 5212. They have the dates mixed up there. And then 1.956 or 1957, I might have went down there to the club, but I don't think I knew him in 1948, at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This report also indicates that you formerly operated night clubs in Dallas?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; I told them that I went down and operated a club, just managed a club for Frank and Virginia Nick on Browder Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of that night club?
Mrs. CHEEK. Pat Morgan had the club at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the club?
Mrs. CHEEK. Club Royal is what Virginia and Frank Nick named it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. R-o-y-a-l?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the name of the club when you were employed there?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mrs. CHEEK. February of 1963, I believe it was, this past year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But prior to 1963, had you ever been connected with the night club business in any way?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; nothing, only my husband was a musician. He played nightclubs and I went there with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he play in Dallas nightclubs?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this Mr. Cheek?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a performer or anything?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was he a musician in Dallas? For what period of time?
Mrs. CHEEK. He was a musician before I married him. He just had it as a hobby. He worked at National Cash Register, and played on Friday and Saturday nights to pick up extra money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see; you came to Dallas, you said, 18 years ago? 1946?
Mrs. CHEEK. 1947.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 1947. Were you married to Mr. Cheek at that time?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you marry Mr. Cheek?
Mrs. CHEEK. 1947.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, from 1947 to 1955, did Mr. Cheek play these weekend jobs in nightclubs?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he employed regularly on weekends?
Mrs. CHEEK. He played with Harry Traveler's Band, and I don't remember the other names of the bands he played with, but he might have set in on some. You would have to ask him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever play in any of Jack Ruby's clubs?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So your connection with the night club business prior to 1963, was solely through your husband's association as a musician and your going to the night clubs with him?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you used to go regularly on the nights that he played?
Mrs. CHEEK. Most every Saturday night or Friday with him.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated here also that on the last occasion that you saw Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club, that you spent several hours discussing this investment with him?
Mrs. CHEEK. I think I put down there two or three hours. About 2 until maybe 4:30, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can't you give us any more idea about. what he had for this club, what kind of club it was going to be? You said you talked with the interior decorator?
Mrs. CHEEK. I let him talk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't remember all they said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can't you tell us some more about what he said? You were there for a couple of hours. He must have described----
Mrs. CHEEK. He talked to other people while I was there. He would go in and out of the office, and he would indicate to me he was talking long distance and talking to other people that come in his club. And then he would come back and talk some more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make any long distance telephone calls while you were there?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; but I don't know when he made them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hold these conversations in his office?
Mrs. CHEEK. He was in the office, and then in the club, and then he came a few minutes, and then I came on home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your best recollection is, it was from about 2 o'clock in the afternoon until about sometime after 4:00 that afternoon?
Mrs. CHEEK. I think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to place the time? Anything significant?
Mrs. CHEEK. I think it was; I remember the time I was down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a 2 o'clock appointment?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. Around 2:00 or 2:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how many long distance telephone calls he made?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about any of the business enterprises that he had?
Mrs. CHEEK. He told me about other businesses he had and how many he had been in, but I don't remember exactly. I just listened to him and I wasn't interested really in putting in $6,000 and him putting in $1,000, and I was just listening to the man talk and getting his ideas on a lot of things that he had in mind for clubs that he was talking about, and I didn't I wasn't really interested in what he did in the past or what clubs he was connected with. That is why I don't remember, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also indicated that you thought at first when you saw Lee Harvey Oswald's photograph on television, that you might have rented to him. What made you think that?
Mrs. CHEEK. I noticed a lot of people you can walk down the street or be introduced to a person and think I have met them before. Well, I was trying to remember back if I had ever seen the man before in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you think you might have seen him?
Mrs. CHEEK. I didn't know. Just like have you ever, you know, met a person and thought you had seen them before?
Mrs. CHEEK. Well, that is the way I thought I was trying to remember where I had seen him before, and probably I had seen him so many times on TV that day until I thought maybe I had rented to him, and I thought if I had, I would look it up and turn it in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Where were you when you first heard that President Kennedy had been shot?
Mrs. CHEEK. In my apartment at 3914 Swiss, Apartment 2.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do that day?
Mrs. CHEEK. What did I do that day?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, Ma'am.


Mrs. CHEEK. I was waiting for the plumber to fix some plumbing there at the apartment house. That is where I was living. I don't remember all the things I did that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain there all day and watch TV all day?
Mrs. CHEEK. I just turned it on when the plumber wanted--he said the President is in the city and he said, "Let's look at TV a little," he said, "I haven't listened to any of the news."
So his name is Louis Zmolik and I turned on the TV.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to watch television the rest of the day, or did you go back to your business?
Mrs. CHEEK. Watched it off and on. I was answering the phone, talking on the phone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if there were business calls that you had or social calls, or talking with people about the assassination, or what?
Mrs. CHEEK. Well, they might have been business calls, some of them and some I was talking about how terrible it was the President had been killed, what an awful thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your sister call you that day?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; I don't think she did. I didn't learn that, I think, until someone else called me to watch TV, that she had been on TV. I didn't see her on TV.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your sister appear? Was she interviewed on Television?
Mrs. CHEEK. Someone said that she was, and my sister in Tyler said she was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see her interviewed on TV?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What day was that? Was that on Friday, the day the President was killed, or was it on Saturday?
Mrs. CHEEK. The President, I think, was killed wasn't he, on the 22d of November, Washington's Birthday? I remembered that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The 22d of February is Washington's birthday.
Mrs. CHEEK. I mean November.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was Friday, the 22d.
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the day that Mrs. Roberts appeared on television, or was it a later date?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know. I never did see her on TV.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next day on Saturday?
Mrs. CHEEK. I got the newspaper and saw the next morning, I think, where her picture was in the paper, but I didn't talk to her until---yes, she called me, my sister called me on Swiss Avenue. I have a sister living on Swiss. She called me and told me, I think, that Earlene was on TV, and we talked the next morning about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturday, do you recall what you did on Saturday the 23d?
Mrs. CHEEK. Sure can't, not right off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend all day watching television?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; I didn't spend all day watching TV. I just happened to turn on the TV because Mr. Zmolik asked me to turn on the TV that day. I don't know what I was doing. I was probably cleaning the house, because I didn't have a maid.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you were probably in and out?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; cleaning the apartment, and sometimes I even cleaned the apartments myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sunday morning, the 24th, do you recall what you were doing the morning of the 24th?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was you first learned that Jack Ruby had shot Lee Oswald?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked "Dallas, Texas, 4-14-64, Bertha Cheek, Exhibit 5354."


This consists of two pages of an interview report which is marked Commission's Document 86, Page 132, and 86, Page 133.
It is a copy of a report made by Special Agent David Barry of the FBI, with you, Mrs. Cheek, on December 9, 1963.
I want you to read that over and I will ask you the same questions with respect to that as I asked with the previous report. That is, would you make any additions or corrections on that?
If you felt that that is an accurate report of the interview you had with Agent Barry?
Mrs. CHEEK. I had bought and sold in the nightclubs, no. I didn't say that. I didn't mean to give them the impression, if they got that impression, that I had bought and sold nightclubs. No. I told them about Maple Avenue, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see what portion of the report you are referring to.
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't remember buying and selling nightclubs, but I would, if I could, make any money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This report says on Page 132; "Mrs. Cheek stated that she has been in the real estate business in Dallas, Texas, for a number of years."
Mrs. CHEEK. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. "That she frequently has bought and sold interests in nightclubs; that during the past several months she has been attempting to locate a good nightclub investment; and that in this connection she had visited practically every nightclub in Dallas which she considered might be purchased outright or in which an interest might be obtained."
Mrs. CHEEK. I was interested in buying one, but I hadn't bought and sold them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So the only change you would make in the paragraph was to strike out that clause which reads, "that she frequently has bought and sold interests in nightclubs"?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take this pen and put a line through that and initial it?
Mrs. CHEEK. [Complies.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you go ahead and continue to read it and tell us if there are any other changes that you would make?
Mrs. CHEEK. [Reading report.] Mr. Martin knows Jack Ruby. That name right there, that man might have told Jack Ruby that I was interested in a club. He knows him real well and says Mrs. Grant is his friend, and Jack Ruby, that is the time that I made the appointment to see him about the club. Well, he said that he had had dinner with Jack Ruby. We were talking about the club over on Oak Lawn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Vegas Club?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. And he said Jack Ruby was a good friend of his. And he told me about Jack Ruby. That is where I got my information, I remember now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with him about Ruby. When was your conversation with Martin about Ruby?
Mrs. CHEEK. He was just telling me about a good operator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mrs. CHEEK. And how he made money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you saw Ruby in November?
Mrs. CHEEK. Just before I went down to the club, you know, and met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He said something to you also about Mrs. Grant, Eva Grant?
Mrs. CHEEK. Mr. Martin. He said both were good friends of him, and said Mrs. Grant operated the club on Oak Lawn for Mr. Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else he told you?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't remember all the conversation
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call this Mr. Matin that said he had dinner with Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; he was a real good friend of his and a real nice fellow, and Mr. Martin said he was in the oil business and he was just kind of playing


with that club over there because he liked the nightclub business, and he wanted $25,000 for half interest in it, and I thought it was too much money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know Martin?
Mrs. CHEEK. Just looking for clubs, and I saw Mr. Martin's. I found out who owned the club. I don't remember just how I found out who owned a place. Sometimes I might go down to the records, if they buy the land, and look to see who owns it. Then I contact them like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now didn't you plan to manage this club yourself? Any club that you would buy, didn't you plan on managing it yourself?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know whether I would or not, or whether I would have someone else to manage it for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of a return did you expect on your investment?
Mrs. CHEEK. I wasn't thinking about that at the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You must have some idea.
Mrs. CHEEK. I didn't know how much I would invest. I didn't have very much money to invest. I would have to trade a piece of property or sell a piece. I was looking for clubs or property. If you are talking to people you run into a good bit--buying 5212 Gaston, I put down $600 down, but I paid high payments. I don't know how much I would invest. I don't have a whole lot of money. I put small payments down and make high payments a month, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure, but. you want to make sure you are getting more money off your real estate or business investments?
Mrs. CHEEK. When I came to Dallas, I didn't have very much money. I started managing a place for Mrs. Strong out on Gaston Avenue, and I managed it for her, and she sold me the place for $600 earnest money down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the money that you acquired, you use for buying and selling real estate?
Mrs. CHEEK. Buying and selling.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you obtain any money from your husband?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; we worked together those years. He didn't take anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But all the money which was accumulated by you was accumulated through your own efforts?
Mrs. CHEEK. And other people working for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when you think about investing money, you decide whether you are going to put that money into some business or whether you are going to leave it in a bank and draw three or four percent interest, don't you? Don't you have any idea?
Mrs. CHEEK. I never have enough to leave in the bank to draw interest. I either have it invested or going to invest it, what little I have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Don't you ever figure this out in terms of percentage you get or you expect to get on the money that you put up?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; I haven't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you decide whether it is going to be a good investment for you or not? Whether it is the kind of investment that you want?
Mrs. CHEEK. I really don't know. I just trade and sell. That is all I do. I guess I should figure more. Maybe that is why I lost all I did in the Beachcomber, because I just traded that today. I trade 5212 and 5302 for the Beachcomber and the Holiday Apartments on a contract to sell, and probably had I gotten a paper and pencil and had an attorney, I wouldn't have done that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything else as you read through that, that you want to change?
Mrs. CHEEK. [Reading.] You know, you talk to people about investments like Jack Ruby, but I have talked to a number of people. You may not just have an idea that you would invest, if you would make some money. I had no idea that I would. This is nothing permanent about this at all. I was just talking to the people, just went down and talked to him Just like I talked to Bill Martin. Bill Martin could have killed President Kennedy and it would have been the same thing when I talked to him if he did it.
I was so surprised when I heard that Jack Ruby killed Oswald and all this happened, it just floored me. I thought it was the awfulest thing I had ever heard of. I didn't figure that man doing such a thing, after talking to him down there. He didn't seem like a criminal.


Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of man did he seem like?
Mrs. CHEEK. He seemed like a, well, he was kind of a nervous person, but you wouldn't have thought that he would murder anyone. He just walked around you know, but, I am a nervous person myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he able to keep the conversation going in the same general direction? Was he flighty?
Mrs. CHEEK. Kind of flighty; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he act?
Mrs. CHEEK. Well, he didn't know his location. And I told him it seemed to me that it was funny why he would try to get $6,000 out of me, not knowing, I wouldn't know the location, I wouldn't know anything about the business or anything.
He couldn't tell me anything about that, and I didn't understand why he would call me down and try to convince me he was a good man and talking for this Frank, too, and not having the location, couldn't show me what I was buying. And I told him I usually see the things that I buy or know something about it. I don't buy anything unless I can see it and look at it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the idea that this Frank was----
Mrs. CHEEK. He is an older fellow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man did he appear to be?
Mrs. CHEEK. I would say he was up around 66 years old. He was gray-headed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how tall was he?
Mrs. CHEEK. He was a little taller than I was. About five seven, I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But not a tall man?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his weight? Appear to be heavy?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't remember how much the man weighed, about 165 or 160, maybe not that much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a fat man?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Medium-built, would you say, or skinny?
Mrs. CHEEK. He wasn't skinny, I don't think. I didn't look at the man really that much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if he wore glasses?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't know whether he did or not. I don't think he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn anything about where he lived?
Mrs. CHEEK. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby indicate that somebody else besides Fisher and he were interested in this new nightclub?
Mrs. CHEEK. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Frank, whatever his name is?
Mrs. CHEEK. I didn't understand that Frank was going in on it. He was going to decorate it for Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate there was somebody else interested besides him?
Mrs. CHEEK. Just himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You must have been quite annoyed with him when he wouldn't tell you where it would be and wouldn't give you the details?
Mrs. CHEEK. Well, I just told him I couldn't make an investment that I didn't know about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he describe how big it was going to be? How many seats?
Mrs. CHEEK. No, he didn't. He might have, but I don't remember the exact seating.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you can't tell us anything that you recall about that conversation other than what you have told us so far?
Mrs. CHEEK. That is all I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, have you read through this interview report?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't have glasses, and I can't see too well today. I don't have my glasses with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, would you like me to read it out?
Mrs. CREEK. You can read it to me.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you read the first paragraph?
Mrs. CHEEK. I think I read pretty well through everything, because I can hold it off and read it pretty good. I was holding it. I can see if I hold it far away. If you want, you can read it to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't I start to read at the last paragraph on page 132 of Commission Document 86. It reads: "At Ruby's invitation, Mrs. Cheek said she did discuss such investment with Ruby at the Carousel. Ruby proposed her investment of $6,000 in a club, the identity or location of which he would not disclose, apparently Mrs. Cheek said to preclude her going around him on the deal."
"Mrs. Cheek said she would not consider the investment of $6,000 without full disclosure and had suggested to Ruby that he get an option on the business so that he might discuss the proposal openly. This concluded the discussion of such investment by Mrs. Cheek with Jack Ruby."
Let me ask you at this point, was your understanding that this was a going business that he was going to buy?
Mrs. CHEEK. No, it was the location that he was going to buy and then put the club in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it really means that he should get an option on the real estate?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. That is what I told him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. "Throughout these discussions at the Carousel, Mrs. Cheek stated that Ruby was assisted by one Frank, whose last name Mrs. Cheek did not recall.
"She described Frank as a man of Jewish extraction about 60 years of age with gray hair. Frank was present, she said, apparently to provide Ruby with a good recommendation as a nightclub operator as this was the extent of his participation in the discussion."
You would amplify that to say that Frank also talked about how Frank was going to decorate the place?
Mrs. CHEEK. He didn't tell that he was going to decorate this place. He talked about how he decorated the other place and how nice a job he did. And he spoke of how, what a good operator Ruby was in the nightclub business and how he could make money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then the last sentence is:
"Mrs. Cheek was unable to provide any additional information of pertinence concerning Jack Ruby."
Well, I take it that you have no additions or corrections to make to what I have just read you?
Mrs. CHEEK. That's correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I want to thank you for spending all this time, and I realize that this has been a sacrifice for you to come down here, and we will try to make arrangements to make photo copies of a few of the records that you have.
Mrs. CHEEK. You are welcome to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Again I say you are very kind to give us your time, and I would ask you a couple of questions in conclusion.
One, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission Staff prior to appearing here today?
Mrs. CHEEK. Those FBI men.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By other than that?
Mrs. CHEEK. Barry and Mr. Kelley.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But nobody that identified himself as a member of the Commission's staff, as opposed to an FBI agent or Secret Service agent? You haven't been other than these two interview reports that I have showed you? Have you been interviewed by anybody on any occasion?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't think so, unless when the police and the FBI or anyone comes to my house about any of the rents or anyone, I always talk to them, and now I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, before I----
Mrs. CHEEK. I give them all the information I can give them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before I sat down here with you in the room this afternoon, did I interview you at all?


Mrs. CHEEK. I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I did meet you out in the hallway?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, sir; I met you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I didn't ask you any questions?
Mrs. CHEEK. No; you didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I will ask you this, too. Do you have any information that you consider to be of any importance in connection with what this Commission is doing, that you haven't provided us so far?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't think I have any information at all that I could give you. If I had, I had already called someone and told you about it. If I had ever talked to anyone or anyone mentioned anything about this, I just, like my sister, if she got a letter through the mail, I said, "You call the FBI immediately and turn it in." "Turn everything in."
She would get letters through the mail from different people and the people would be coming out interviewing, and I said, "Call immediately and tell them,"
Mr. GRIFFIN. If anything comes to your attention----
Mrs. CHEEK. I will call you and tell you, surely. I will try to be as helpful as I can be, because I don't understand it, like everyone else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We certainly appreciate that, and we are trying to get as much as we can.
Mrs. CHEEK. I can't feature Ruby killing Oswald, and I can't feature the President being killed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you are not the only one.
Mrs. CHEEK. It shocked me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Again, I want to thank you for coming down here. It has been a pleasure to meet you.
Mrs. CHEEK. It is a pleasure meeting you.

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