Mr. JENNER.
Will you rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the deposition you are about to give?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I do.
Mr. JENNER.
Mr. Reporter, this is Mr. George De Mohrenschildt. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt have received letters from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, have you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
We received one.
Mr. JENNER.
One joint letter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
One joint letter.
Mr. JENNER.
With which was enclosed copies of the Senate Joint Resolution 137, which was the legislation authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; the Executive Order No. 11130, President Lyndon Johnson--which brought the Commission actually into existence and appointed the Commissioners and fixed their powers and duties and obligations. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony before the Commission, and by deposition.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Are you a representative of the Commission?
Mr. JENNER.
Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
A lawyer for the Commission?
Mr. JENNER.
I will state it in a moment.
I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and have prepared to make inquiry of you with respect to the subject matter with which the Commission is charged.
In general, as you have noted from the documents enclosed with Mr. Rankin's letter, the Commission is charged with the investigation and the assembling of facts respecting the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963, the events that followed that assassination, and all matters before and after that are deemed by the Commission relevant to its obligations.
In pursuing these lines of inquiry, which we have been doing now for some months, we have examined before the Commission and by way of deposition various people who, by pure happenstance in the course of their lives, came into contact either with Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald, or others who had some relation with them. And in the course of our investigation, we have learned that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt befriended the Oswalds at one time, and had some other contact with them.
As you realize, there are rumors and speculations of various people who do not know what the facts are--some of them know bits of the facts--which require us in many instances to inquire into matters that are largely personal. We are not doing so merely because we are curious.
I will confine myself to matters that we believe to be relevant. It may not always be apparent to you, because we know a great deal more, of course, than any one witness would know.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
You know, this affair actually is hurting me quite a lot, particularly right now in Haiti, because President Duvalier--I have a contract with the Government.
Mr. JENNER.
Yes; I want to inquire on that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
They got wind I am called by the Warren committee. Nobody knows how it happened. And now he associates me, being very scared of assassination, with a staff of international assassins, and I am about to be expelled from the country. My contract may be broken.
So I discussed that with our Ambassador there, Mr. Timmons, and he said, of course, it sounds ridiculous, but he will try to do his best.
Supposedly, President Duvalier received a letter from Washington. Now, this is unofficial---one of the ministers informed me of that--in which this letter states that I was a very close friend of Oswald's, that I am a Polish Communist and a member of an international band.
Mr. JENNER.
I would say that you are misinformed on that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, he did receive some kind of a letter.
Mr. JENNER.
But nothing that would contain any such statements.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I don't know from whom. Some kind of a letter he received from someone.
Mr. JENNER.
It may have been a crank letter.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
What is that?
Mr. JENNER.
It may have been a crank letter, but nothing official.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; I am sure it is nothing official. I am sure it could not have been anything official.
I hope Mr. Timmons will investigate it. Because, naturally, the Minister of Finance of Haiti tells me that it is an official letter and seems to indicate that it comes from the FBI. But I just doubt it, personally. Probably a crank letter. I do not have an extraordinary admiration for the FBI. But, frankly, I don't think they would do anything like that, you know.
Mr. JENNER.
They don't go around making official-
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
So I hope that this unpleasantness will be somehow repaired by Mr. Timmons. And I think that just a communication from him to the foreign office there might help. I am not persona non grata at the Embassy. He doesn't have to swear I am this or that, or that I am a good friend of his. But just that I am not persona non grata would be sufficient, I think. Because this job I have there in Haiti is a result of many years of work, preparation, and it is important for me. It involves a considerable amount of money, $285,000, and further development, mining and oil development, which goes with it--and preparation of this job started already in 1947, when I first came to Haiti, and went several times subsequently and worked there. It is a long-term approach that I have started, because I like the country, and I think it has excellent oil possibilities, and I finally got that contract about in March last year.
So if the committee could do something in that respect--I am going also to see a gentleman in the State Department who Mr. Timmons suggested me to see and explain the situation to him. It would be very unpleasant, just to be kicked out of the country because of the rumors.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, we certainly don't want that to happen. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Please think about what can be done in this respect, because it is really very important to me.
Mr. JENNER.
Now---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
And excuse me. I am also employing American geologists there, and I am responsible for them and their families. I have several Haitian engineers and geologists working there. So it is not a fly-by-night project, you see.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, I don't regard it as such, and I know something about it. I think probably it would be well if we start from the beginning. You were born in 1911?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Some of the reports say April 17th and some say April 4th, or something of that nature. It is probably a difference in the calendar.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is it exactly. It is a difference in calendar.
Mr. JENNER.
It is April 17, 1911, by what calendar?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
By our calendar here.
Mr. JENNER.
And what date by----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
April 4th.
Mr. JENNER.
And by what calendar is that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
By the Gregorian Calendar.
Mr. JENNER.
In any event, you are now 53 years old?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Where were you born?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
A town called Mozyr.
Mr. JENNER.
What country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Russia; Czarist Russia.
Mr. JENNER.
Czarist, did you say?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, some of the reports indicate that this was Poland rather than Russia. Would you explain this?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I don't remember the town, because I never lived there to my memory. But it is not too far from the Polish border.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, your father was Sergis Alexander Von Mohrenschildt, is that correct? And your mother was Alexandra Zopalsky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
What nationality was your mother?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
My mother was Russian, of Polish and Hungarian descent.
Mr. JENNER.
And the nationality of your father?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
He was also of Russian, Swedish, German descent.
Mr. JENNER.
Would you tell me a little bit about your father? And may I say this. There appear in the reports that he was--or maybe your grandfather, was Swedish, or someone in your line was Swedish, and received some commission or grant from the Queen of Sweden at one time, or maybe your family.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Tell us about that, will you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, the family is of Swedish origin. The name is spelled M-o-h-r-e-n-s-k-u-l-d.
Mr. JENNER.
Yes; I saw last night in looking over these materials the spelling S-k-o-l-d-t, is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right, it is spelled this way. That is a Swedish way of spelling. And the letter "o" with two dots over it is a typical Swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in any language. So in probably moving to Russia, or to the Baltic States, you see, which was an intermediary area between Russia and Sweden, they probably changed it to S-c-h-i- l-d-t. And it can also be written in Russian, at the same time.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, what did your father do? What was he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
He was a landowner. He was a director of the Nobel interests for a while. He was a marshal of nobility of the Minsk Province.
Mr. JENNER.
He was what?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Marshal of nobility. He was elected representative of the landowners to the Government.
Mr. JENNER.
Of what country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Of Czarist Russia. He was born in Russia, and spent all his life in Russia, spoke German at home sometimes, sometimes Russian. That was a mixed-up family, of which there were so many in Russia.
Mr. JENNER.
You, yourself, have the command of at least four, maybe five languages. May I see if I can recall them. English?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; if you consider it a command.
Mr. JENNER.
Yes; I do. German?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
German, not too well.
Mr. JENNER.
Spanish?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Spanish.
Mr. JENNER.
French?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Russian?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Russian; yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And I suppose a smattering of a number of other languages.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
You have traveled widely?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Especially in Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Now you can add Creole to it.
Mr. JENNER.
From your experience in Haiti?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. And Yugoslav.
Mr. JENNER.
Yes; you spent almost a year in Yugoslavia.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you pick up any Danish when you were there, or do they speak French there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
They speak German and French.
Mr. JENNER.
Your father is deceased?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
What do you know about his death?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
My father was----
Mr. JENNER.
I think it might be well, Mr. De Mohrenschildt--I am trying to make this informal. I want you to relax.
May I say, because of the considerations about which you are concerned, I will tend to inquire into these things.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I am very glad that you do, because you know what I mean--it is probably being in a controversial business like I am, international business----
Mr. JENNER.
Also, I gather that you are a pretty lively character.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Maybe so. I hope so. All sorts of speculation have arisen from time to time. And I don't mind, frankly, because when you don't have anything to hide, you see, you are not afraid of anything. I am very outspoken.
Mr. JENNER.
I understand that you. are, from witnesses I have interviewed, and from these mountains of reports.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; I can imagine. By the way, those reports--again, you see this inquiry is probably going to hurt my business. I hope they are conducted somehow delicately.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, I was asking you to tell me about your father.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Up to the time of his death, from what you understand to be the circumstances of death.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; well, my father, then, therefore, was an important official of the Czarist government. But he was a liberal--he had very liberal ideas. He, for instance, was---
Mr. JENNER.
Now, liberal, to me, over in that country would mean nothing. You tell us what you mean by that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Liberal means disliked anti-Semitism, the persecution of Jews.
Mr. JENNER.
He was opposed to that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Opposed to that. Disliked the oppression, some elements of oppression of the Czarist government.
Mr. JENNER.
He was opposed to that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Opposed to that. And preached constitutional government. During the war he was a member--being an official--member of the group which mobilized the Army, and all that.
Mr. JENNER.
He mobilized the Czarist army?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
You are talking now about World War I?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
World War I. It is such a long time ago.
Mr. JENNER.
I have to get these things on record, so that somebody who is reading this, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, a hundred years from now--I should tell you that your testimony will be reproduced in full just as you give it, with all my questions put to you just as I put them. And it will be printed as part of the report.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I can imagine what a volume it will be for the future Ph. D.'s to study. This is vague in my memory. I am saying what I vaguely remember, because, at that time, I was 5 years old. But I vaguely remember those days, the objections of my father against the Czarist government to a degree, although he was an official. He was an independent character, too. Finally he resigned his marshal of nobility position, and became a director of Nobel interests, of which his older brother was a president or chairman of the board--I don't know, I don't remember any more, in Baku, Russia. So we spent a little time there in the oil fields. And then, of course, the revolution came.
Mr. JENNER.
And that came when?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Beg pardon?
Mr. JENNER.
When?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
1918, I guess. Then the revolution came. We were returned to Minsk.
Mr. JENNER.
In 1918 where were you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
In 1918 probably in St. Petersburg, or Moscow, one or the other--in both towns at some times. Because the headquarters of that Nobel enterprises were in Petersburg or Moscow. But I am not so sure about that. Anyway, we lived there for awhile.
Mr. JENNER.
You do have a personal recollection of having lived in St. Petersburg and Moscow?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, very vague. I never expected you to ask me such questions. I really have to delve into my memory. It is not very difficult, because, you know, I like to write things. So I did write a story of my childhood, and it is called "Child of the Revolution," a memory of the child of the revolution. It was poorly written. I showed it to one of the editors, Scribners, I remember, and they wanted me to change it, and I abandoned the whole thing. Well, so I do have a little bit more recollection than I am supposed to have just by living so many years, because I did write it down.
Mr. JENNER.
Yes. You wrote it when you came over to this country.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And you refreshed your recollection at that time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
Discussions with your brother, I suppose?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, you have mentioned Minsk.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That was the province where my father was governor-not governor, but marshal of nobility of.
Mr. JENNER.
What province is that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Province of Minsk. Surprisingly, that is where Lee Oswald lived. This is one of the reasons I was curious about his experiences, because I remember it very well. I remember that town very well.
Mr. JENNER.
What age were you when you left Minsk?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
So from Leningrad, during the occupation by the Germans of Minsk, you see, we escaped from the Communists in Leningrad, and moved to Minsk back again, because it was German occupied.
Mr. JENNER.
This was in World War I?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, in World War I. That was in 1918 or 1919. I don't remember exactly what year it was. That area was still occupied by the Germans. Anyway, there was famine in Moscow, or Leningrad, I don't remember which one--there was famine there. So we escaped.
Mr. JENNER.
Did your whole family escape to Minsk?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I don't remember what my brother was doing at the time. I think--I think just my father, mother, and myself. I think my brother was in the Naval Academy at the time.
Mr. JENNER.
I want to ask you about your brother in due course. He is about 12 years older than you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes--11.
Mr. JENNER.
A man of some scholarly attainment, by the way.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
He certainly is. He loves books.
Mr. JENNER.
Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Anyway, we escaped from the famine, frankly, more than communism, and moved back to Minsk--whether we had a house, or I don't remember, but we had some possessions there. And we arrived there. And from then on we stayed there, although the Communists eventually occupied Minsk. Then my father was put in jail. I will make it short.
Mr. JENNER.
Please that is all right. I don't mind the shortness. But I want times. About when was your father put in jail?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
The first time in 1920, I think.
Mr. JENNER.
And you were still with your family then?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
At this time you were 9 years old.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Your mother was still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Your father was seized?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
By whom?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
By the Communists, by the Communist regime.
Mr. JENNER.
Why was he seized?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
For being outspoken, I guess. I remember--the first time I don't remember, frankly. But the second time I remember very well, because this is very interesting. He was seized the first time. Then the Polish Army arrived--the Poles and the Russians were fighting at the time. And at the last moment the Communists released my father, because of the intervention of some friend, you see. And we always had some friends whom we had protected once upon a time, who always came and helped him at the right moment with the Communists, because many Jewish people he had helped became Communists, or halfway Communists. They helped him. And that is how eventually we were able to escape from Soviet Russia.
The first time he was released, the Poles arrived, we were in Poland again, that was a temporary occupation. And then the Poles retreated and the Russians arrived again. And here was the question to decide whether we should go with the Poles or stay in Russia. And my father decided to stay in Russia because being a liberal he had an impression that they have changed.
Mr. JENNER.
That the Russians had changed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; he heard from somebody that they have become liberal. He stayed in Minsk, and because he stayed he got some kind of an appointment in the Soviet Government. I don't remember which one it was. I guess in the Department of Agriculture, because he was interested in division of big estates. That was his idea--what was going on in Russia was opposed by the huge estates. We had one, also, but not as big. So he was always in favor of the division of the big estates, breaking them up into smaller farms. And he had this appointment, adviser to the Minister of Agriculture I don't remember what it was exactly. And we lived more or less happily for a certain number of months-- although there was a famine there.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, you are still in Minsk?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Still in Minsk; yes--in probably 1920. And then one day they arrested him again. And here is what happened. I will show you what kind of a person he was. At the time they were installing museums in churches. And my father objected to that.
Mr. JENNER.
Your father was a religious man, was he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; he was not religious. But he objected by principle to that. He was not very religious at all. But he objected to the intervention into other people's faith. We never had too much religion in the family. And he was put in jail. And started criticizing the Soviet Government. And, finally--I remember this more distinctly--because he was finally sentenced to life exile to Siberia. And that I will never forget about my father--an interesting thing.
Mr. JENNER.
He was banished to Siberia by the Russians?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
These are the Bolsheviks who had conducted the revolution. This was a revolutionary period?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. This is 1921 by now.
Mr. JENNER.
You are now 10 years old?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I remained on the street making my own living somehow. My mother runs around the country trying to save my father. He is in jail for the second time, and finally he gets sentenced to life imprisonment in a town called Vieliki Ustug in Siberia. This is as far as I remember the name of it.
And why was he sentenced for that--because at the hearing, whatever they called the court, they asked him, "What kind of government do you suggest for Soviet Russia?" And he said, fool as he was, "Constitutional monarchy," and that was it. That was his sentence just because of that. Because, actually, they didn't have anything against him. My father was a liberal and never hurt anybody. He became very sick in jail. And these friends--the friends whom he had helped previously----
Mr. JENNER.
You mean true friends?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. In this particular case I don't remember their names. They were a couple of Jewish doctors who advised my father to eat as little as possible, any way to appear very sick, and finally--they themselves were his doctors. They finally made the position with the Soviet Government that he was going to die, he was not going to survive the trip to Siberia, because he was going to be sent directly to Siberia, with the family, with all of us. And that he should be released to stay home, and just appear once--a couple of times a week to show he is there, until his health condition improved, and he was able to be sent to Siberia.
And they did. that, surprisingly, and they released him. And that is where he made his preparations for escape. And the same people helped him to get some transportation, a hay wagon, and we crossed the border, in a very long and tedious way. But we crossed the border of Poland.
Mr. JENNER.
You crossed the border into Poland, and he settled where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
In a town called Wilno.
Mr. JENNER.
That was yourself, your mother, and your father?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
My father. But my mother almost immediately died from typhoid fever which she contracted during this escape. We all had this typhoid fever.
Mr. JENNER.
But she succumbed to it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
And this was what year?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
1922.
Mr. JENNER.
You are now 11 years old.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
At this point I might ask you--the name was Von Mohrenschildt at this particular time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Your name is now De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
I think your brother still uses the Von, does he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Would you explain that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes--because I am more or less of a French orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States, interchangeably. And my uncle, who was here in the States for quite some time, and died here----
Mr. JENNER.
I was going to ask you about him. You might as well give his full name.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER.
I will digress for a moment. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt was some officer, or had a connection with the Russian Embassy here in Washington?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Tell us about that, please.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, he was First Secretary of the Czarist Embassy, the last Czarist Embassy here in Washington. He married McAdoo's daughter.
Mr. JENNER.
William Gibbs McAdoo's daughter. She is now Mrs. Post.
Is she still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; she is still alive.
Mr. JENNER.
Do you recall her first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Nona.
Mr. JENNER.
Your uncle is deceased?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
He is deceased; yes.
Mr. JENNER.
They were eventually divorced, were they not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, sir; no--he died. They were never divorced. She was divorced many times--remarried and divorced many times. But he died--I guess in 1925 or 1924.
Mr. JENNER.
Sometimes people refer to you as Baron De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Would you explain that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of the Baltic nobility.
Mr. JENNER.
Through what source?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Through the Swedish source, from the time of Queen Christina. But my father never used the title, because of his perhaps liberal tendencies. Neither did Ferdinand, I think.
Mr. JENNER.
And as near as I can tell, your brother never has?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
My brother--I don't think so; no.
Mr. JENNER.
At least I don't find it in any of the papers.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
You are an interesting person, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, to many people. They have gathered ideas about you, and many of them in the past at least have felt that you might have been, or that you perhaps were--had a title of some kind. I just wanted to explain that of record.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, we have you in Wilno, Poland. You are 11 years old.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I have some papers which say that we are barons, in my files. But, frankly, I don't--I think it is sort of ridiculous to use the title. My ex-wife loved the idea.
Mr. JENNER.
Which one?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
The very last one, Sharples.
Mr. JENNER.
Am I correct that there were two children, yourself and your brother Dimitri?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
And no others--just two children?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, you stayed in Wilno, Poland, how long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Stayed in Wilno until I graduated from gymnasium, which is the equivalent of high school. A little bit more than a high school. That must have been 1929. Not constantly over there, but that is where our home was.
Mr. JENNER.
What did your father do in Wilno?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
In Wilno he fought for the--tried to regain back our estate. It happened to be we had an estate, a piece of land.
Mr. JENNER.
In Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
In Russia--which became Poland--in Czarist Russia, but which became Poland. Right on the border. It became through the partition of Czarist Russia, it became part of Poland. And this estate was in Poliesie. That is a wooded area of Poland, right on the border.
Well, the estate was seized by the peasants and divided among themselves by themselves. It was not large, but it was--well, maybe 5,000 acres; 5,000 or 6,000 acres.
Mr. JENNER.
I would say that is fairly large.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
My father was able to regain it. He did not take it back from the peasants, but he regained ownership and was able to sell the forests from it, and eventually sold it back again to the peasants piece by piece. So we were not completely penniless refugees.
Mr. JENNER.
Did your mother have an interest in that estate?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, it was mother's and father's estate, probably jointly.
Mr. JENNER.
All right.
Now, you completed your classical intermediate education, as you call the gymnasium, in 1929.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
So you are now 18 years of age?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Your mother is deceased. Did you live with your father during this period?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Very close relationship I had with my father.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, did you then leave Poland?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No. Then I tried to---I did not like the country very much, Poland. We became Polish citizens, but I didn't particularly feel at home there. I learned the language. But it didn't feel like home. And I decided to go to study in Belgium, and asked for permission to go to Belgium, and the Polish Government refused me the permission because I was close to the military age. So I volunteered for the Polish Army.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, I would like to go into that. Go right ahead.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I volunteered for the Polish Army and chose the cavalry and was sent to the military academy in Grudziondz. Well, it was a famous military academy in Poland where the Polish nobility displayed their ability to ride horseback. And I was able to get to it because I volunteered--I was 18 years old. I graduated from there.
Mr. JENNER.
Excuse me. May I ask you this: Would it have been possible for any young man your age at that time, let's say, if I may use a reference, peasant, which you were not, to have volunteered for the same position or division in the Polish Army?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
There were some exceptions. Most of the people there were members of the aristocracy, Polish aristocracy, and German aristocracy, who happened to have estates in Poland. But we had some exceptions. But they did not survive later on. They were eliminated, not because of the snobbishness, but it was a pretty tough training, and you needed money to be in that school. You had to have a uniform, you have to have your own horse.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, where did you get the funds to finance it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, my father had this estate, sales of land from that estate, and he also was--now, this I forgot to mention about my father. He started originally as a professor in the gymnasium, then became a government official with the Czarist government. So he was always--always liked to teach.
Mr. JENNER.
You are taking us back to Russia for a moment?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Back to Russia for a moment; yes. So now his profession as a government official was no good--neither his experience as a director of Nobel Enterprises was not much good. So he became a professor and a director of the gymnasium, the Russian gymnasium.
Mr. JENNER.
That is the high school?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
High school, in Wilno. You know--where the immigrants send their children. And he was director of it for a number of years. I don't remember what exact years. I guess until 1929 or 1930. I didn't go to the same school, by the way. I went to a different school.
Mr. JENNER.
You mean you went to a school different from the one in which he was teaching?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; in order not to be under my father's---not supervision, but also that school did not give the rights in Poland, by the way-- did not have the rights in Poland to go to a university in Poland or to serve a short military term, because it was a refugee school, conducted in the Russian language. So I went to a Polish school, had to learn the Polish language, and finally graduated.
Mr. JENNER.
Did I mention Polish as one of the languages of which you have a command?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. And, therefore, it was very important, because the military service for the people graduating from nonaccepted schools was 4 years, or something like that, and for the ones who graduated from the official school it was, I think, a year and a half.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, how long were you in the military academy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
A year and a half.
Mr. JENNER.
And this would take us, then, to the middle of 1931.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
1931; yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And you had reached what, if any, rank in the military service?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I reached candidate officer--sergeant candidate officer, an intermediate rank between an officer and noncommissioned officer. The highest you can get after you get from the military academy.
Mr. JENNER.
Just before as in this country you are about to be commissioned a second lieutenant?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. Except that you are not completely a soldier--you are not a noncommissioned officer, you are not a commissioned officer. You are about to be commissioned a lieutenant.
Mr. JENNER.
I see. All right. Now, you didn't pursue that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No, no. It was just a reserve. You see, it gives you a reserve rank which you can pursue by going back to maneuvers, and pursue that.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, there are some indications that you did return.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, tell me what you did in that connection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I went to school, then to Belgium--I was free now to go to school to Belgium. And I went to Institut Superieur de Commerce a Anvers.
Mr. JENNER.
The translation of that is the institute of higher commercial studies, Antwerp, Belgium. When attending the institution of higher commercial studies in Antwerp, you returned to Poland, did you, from time to time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
In connection with your summer maneuvers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And what was the requirement in that connection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Just to come there when they called you, and go with the Army--summer maneuvers, summer exercises. I think I did that twice. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER.
And this was still in the cavalry?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Still in the cavalry.
Mr. JENNER.
Were you ultimately commissioned?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; always stayed a sergeant.
Mr. JENNER.
You entered the institute of----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
By the way, which was a commission--that is very hard to explain to you. It is like midshipman in the Navy. That is what it is. And since I did not pursue the military career. I remained a candidate officer.
Mr. JENNER.
All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I was not disqualified for any reason. On the contrary, I was the best actually, if I may say so.
Mr. JENNER.
Let me pass for a moment in this connection so we can get it on the record here your brother, Dimitri, 11 years older than you, he also devoted his time to the service, but to the Navy.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, that was the Russian Czarist Navy, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
And tell us about that, please.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, he joined the naval academy when I think he was 11 or 12 years old. That is what they have out there. They start very young. Do you want a little bit of the background of my brother?
Mr. JENNER.
Yes, sir; go right ahead.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
He is really a ferocious anti-Communist, so you would be very happy to hear about that. He was in the Russian Imperial Navy, became a midshipman.
Mr. JENNER.
Give me some dates.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, he was a midshipman in 1918, in Sebastopol, which is the headquarters there.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, he was born March 29, 1902, in St. Petersburg, Russia.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. I thought he was born in 1900.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, his records at the passport office give his birth as March 29, 1902, and he gives his birth in his biographical material at Dartmouth and Yale.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, anyway, he was a young edition of a midshipman. He was a midshipman in 1918, which is like graduation from Annapolis here.
Mr. JENNER.
And did he actually serve in the Czarist Navy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
All the time you are in that school you are in the navy, all the time even when you are 12 years old, you are a member of the navy. It is not like here.
Mr. JENNER.
Did he participate in World War I, in the late 1918 period of fighting.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Do you recall where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I don't recall where. He joined anti-Communist groups, was finally caught by the Communists, and sentenced to death in a town called Smolensk.
Here we were coming back to our--we were already in Minsk at the time, that was not too far. My brother was in Smolensk in jail, in a Communist jail. My father also in jail. And I was the only one at liberty. And my mother was running around trying to help both of them.
My brother was sentenced to be shot. He was put to the wall and they told him, "You will be shot when they say three, and they would say one, two--he was supposed to disclose the names of his accomplices.
Now, I do not recall; Yes, yes. The Polish Government exchanged him against a Communist. They made an exchange. They had some Communist prisoners, and my brother was with a group of Poles who were prisoners of the Communists, and the Poles exchanged him against some of my father's old friends.
And I remember who it is. It was a Catholic bishop in Poland.
Mr. JENNER.
What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Lozinski. He was a bishop who was in jail with my brother, also, and they wanted him, he helped my brother to get out.
Mr. JENNER.
Did your brother join you in Wilno, Poland?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
He immediately--it looks vague. I think he joined us for a little while, or he maybe went ahead of us and came to the United States.
Mr. JENNER.
My information is that he emigrated to the United States on the 20th of August 1920.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. A little bit ahead of us.
Mr. JENNER.
Does that square with your recollection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. You see, there was an intermediate year. The Poles had occupied part of Russia. I think we saw him just before he departed for the United States. The Poles offered him to join the Navy in Poland, and he decided to go to the United States.
Mr. JENNER.
All right. I had digressed a moment because it was appropriate to have your brother come in at the point we reached. But we have you now in Belgium, attending the university.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Had your brother had a higher education while he was still in Russia? That is, had he gone beyond the gymnasium stage?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No. My brother was a midshipman in the Navy. He had only the naval academy education, and even shortened--short naval academy education. I don't know what you would compare it to. Certainly better than high school here.
Mr. JENNER.
Junior college?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Junior college; yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, you continued your studies, did you, in Belgium?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And did you receive a degree from the institute of higher commercial studies in Antwerp?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. I received what you called--master's degree, probably equivalent, because they don't have bachelor's degree there. You get immediately a master's degree--a license--in finance and in maritime transportation--another year of maritime transportation.
Mr. JENNER.
And you attended this institute for 4 years, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
For 5 years.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, you received----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; all the degrees you can get there.
Mr. JENNER.
This is one of the oldest commercial institutions of higher learning in Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Something like the Harvard Business School?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; founded by Napoleon.
Mr. JENNER.
And you received a----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
It is a mixture of some engineering and commercial--not exactly like Harvard School of Business Administration. It lets you carry on industrial and business activities, with a specialization in maritime transportation.
Mr. JENNER.
There is some indication that your degree is one of master of arts in commercial, financial, and counsular sciences.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, you continued on--after you received that master's degree, you continued on for another year, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
No; you entered----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I entered the University of Liege.
Mr. JENNER.
And how long did you study there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Two years.
Mr. JENNER.
And you ultimately received a degree, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
What was that degree?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Doctor of science in international commerce.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you write a doctorate thesis?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
On what subject was it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
It was the subject of the economic influence of the United States on Latin America.
Mr. JENNER.
Had you already acquired, through that, an interest in Latin America?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And you have pursued that in subsequent years, have you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; a very useful dissertation it was.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, we have you--let's see, this is about 5 years--you are about----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
1938.
Mr. JENNER.
We are up in 1938.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now,----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
In the meantime, my brother came to visit me from the United States. We had not seen each other since 1920. He was studying--he was pursuing his career, and eventually got married.
Mr. JENNER.
To Miss McAdoo?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; that is my uncle. My brother married a lady by the name of Betty Cartright Hooker.
Mr. JENNER.
That is right. And you were in partnership at one time with Edward Hooker, were you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
I will get to that in a moment. She is still living, is she not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
She still is living; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER.
Is she in this country or in Paris or Italy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
She is in New York now. I have her address some place. She lives between New York and Paris.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you engage in some kind of a business in Europe during this period?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
While you were attending the university?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
How did you manage that while you--inasmuch as you were pursuing your studies at two universities?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I had an interest in a sport shop with a girl friend of mine. It helped me to make ends meet.
Mr. JENNER.
What was the name of that company?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
The name was Sigurd.
Mr. JENNER.
And that was devoted to what--readymade clothes, ski clothes, and that sort of thing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And did you attempt to sell those throughout Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
In the process of doing so, did you then travel through Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Where did you get the funds to finance that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Very little funds--maybe a $1,000, $2,000, from my father, and whatever savings my girl friend had. She was an excellent saleswoman.
Mr. JENNER.
Had you received any funds from your mother's participation in the estate you had?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I think that was the money that helped me to start--when I was 21 years old I received a couple of thousand dollars--although I did not take all the money away from my father, but at least part of it. Or maybe more than that--maybe $4,000 or $5,000. I really don't recall.
Mr. JENNER.
There is some indication in the papers that it was as much as $10,000.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Maybe so.
Mr. JENNER.
You just don't have----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
It was a very successful operation, this business, Sigurd.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you subsequently dissolve it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Dissolved it, quarreled with my girl friend, decided to come to the States.
Mr. JENNER.
Your brother had been over to see you in the meantime?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; and that is what, by the way, induced me into coming to the States, because my brother and his wife came to meet me. They sort of were not too much interested in meeting a mistress--let's face it--and eventually it led to a breakup between us, between my ex-girl friend and myself.
Mr. JENNER.
And you came to this country in 1938?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
May of 1938.
Mr. JENNER.
May of 1938, I think it was. What did you do to sustain yourself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I brought some money with me. I brought some money with me something like $10,000, I would say.
Mr. JENNER.
And what did you immediately do in connection with that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
What did I do immediately?
Mr. JENNER.
I mean did you enter into----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I started looking for a job, very unsuccessfully, if I may say so. In New York in those days, in 1938. I even started selling perfumes, I remember, for a company called Chevalier Garde.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you have any interest in that company?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; just purely as a salesman. I even sold some materials for Shumaker and Company.
Mr. JENNER.
Where were you residing then, with your brother?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; part of the time. Then I had my own room.
Mr. JENNER.
Your brother was then living on Park Avenue, was he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
750?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And you--how long did you stay with him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I think as soon as I arrived we went to spend the summer on Long Island, Belport, Long Island.
Mr. JENNER.
And at Belport, you made what acquaintances?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Lots of people, but especially Mrs. Bouvier.
Mr. JENNER.
Who is Mrs. Bouvier?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Mrs. Bouvier is Jacqueline Kennedy's mother, also her father and her whole family. She was in the process of getting a divorce from her husband. I met him, also. We were very close friends. We saw each other every day. I met Jackie then, when she was a little girl. Her sister, who was still in the cradle practically. We were also very close friends of Jack Bouvier's sister, and his father.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, bring yourself along.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That friendship more or less remained, because we still see each other, occasionally--Mrs. Auchincloss, and occasionally correspond.
Well, then, I realized there was no future selling perfume or materials in the State, and having had that background of the oil industry in my blood, because my father was the director of Nobel Enterprises, which is a large oil concern in Russia, which was eventally expropriated and confiscated, and I decided to come and try to work for an oil company. I arrived in Texas.
Mr. JENNER.
Excuse me, sir. Before we get there because that skips some things--one of your efforts was as an insurance salesman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER.
And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
How did you know that?
Mr. JENNER.
You were unsuccessful in that, were you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Very unsuccessful.
Mr. JENNER.
As a matter of fact, you didn't sell a single policy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Not a single policy.
Mr. JENNER.
Over what period of a time did you pursue that activity?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I even didn't pass my broker's examination. I tried to get an insurance broker's license. I studied to be an insurance broker in the State of New York. And I failed dismally that examination. So that was the end of my insurance business.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, we have you up to the advent of World War II, which was-- this is about 1941.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
But before that I was in Texas and worked for Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER.
Before 1941 you had gone to Texas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; in 1939.
Mr. JENNER.
You went to Texas in 1939?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And how did that come about?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I was interested in the oil industry and wanted to see in which way I could fit into the oil industry.
Mr. JENNER.
Whom did you contact? How did you get there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I went by bus--to Texas by bus. But what actually helped me was that my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, had a very, very close friend in Louisiana, Mrs. Margaret Clark--Margaret Clark Williams, who had large oil properties, large estates in Louisiana. That is about the year 1939.
I got to Louisiana, as the guest, I remember--with my sister-in-law's aunt, Mrs. Edwards. And then I looked the situation around in New Orleans and decided to apply for a job with Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER.
In New Orleans?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No. They had a branch office in New Orleans, but I had to apply for a job in Houston. So I went to Houston, and I applied for a job with Mr. Suman, who is vice president of Humble Oil Co. Also I met the chairman of the board of the Humble Oil Co. through mutual acquaintances.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you return to Louisiana and do some work there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; I worked in Terebonne Parish, on a rig.
Mr. JENNER.
You worked on a rig. This is physical work?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Physical work, yes; lifting pipes, cleaning machinery.
Mr. JENNER.
In other words, starting from the ground floor?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
If there is such a thing in the oil business.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Absolutely.
Mr. JENNER.
Whatever the bottom was, you were doing it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, sir. Very well paid, by the way--a very well paid job, but very tough--at the time, you see, what good pay was at the time.
Mr. JENNER.
I think we might at this time see if I can describe you for the record.
You are 6'1", are you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And now you weigh, I would say, about 195?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
Back in those days you weighed around 180.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
You are athletically inclined?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
And you have dark hair.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No gray hairs yet.
Mr. JENNER.
And you have a tanned--you are quite tanned, are you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER.
And you are an outdoorsman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. I have to tell you--I never expected you to ask me such questions. I also tried to get various jobs otherwise. I went to Arizona.
Mr. JENNER.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt; one of the things I am trying to do is get your personality into the record, because many people have described your personality.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Very different, probably.
Mr. JENNER.
I wouldn't say very different. But you would be surprised the kind of things that are said about you. I don't know that you would be surprised.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I know that I have friends, I have enemies.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, everybody has.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I also went to Arizona, I remember, and tried to get a job as--I don't know if it is after this experience with Humble Oil Co.-- probably--over--to get a job as a polo instructor at the Arizona Desert School. Since we played polo in the military academy, I know how to play polo. I am not an expert player, but I do know how to play polo, and I am a good rider, and was a good rider. So I tried to get the job in the Arizona Desert School for Boys. And for some reason I could not get this job. There was a job available. I don't remember what the circumstances were. I never got this job. But I think it is after my experience with Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER.
You worked in the Louisiana oil fields as--what did you call it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
A roughneck, or roustabout, it is called.
Mr. JENNER.
And you pursued that how long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I think 3 or 4 months.
Mr. JENNER.
We are still in 1939?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Probably in 1939. And I got amoebic dysentery in Louisiana, and got very sick. I had an accident on the rig, was badly cut up-- something fell on my arm, and then I got dysentery. And, frankly, I do not recall whether they fired me or I resigned myself. I do not remember. Maybe both-- resigned and mutual agreement. But I remained very good friends with the chairman of the board of the company, Mr. Blaffer. And he gave me the idea already then to go in the oil business on my own. He says, "George, a man of your background and education, you should be working for yourself," and he explained to me the fundamentals of the oil promotion, if you know what I mean---drill wells, get a lease-- drill a well, find some money to drill that well.
Well, I said, "Mr. Blaffer, frankly it is a little above me to go in so early in my experience in the United States--to go into that type of business. I don't think I am capable enough to do that."
Mr. JENNER.
Well, you didn't have the capital at that time, did you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I didn't have the capital. But he said you could do it without capital.
Mr. JENNER.
All right. When you left the Louisiana oil fields, what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Went back to New York, recovered from my amoebic dysentery. And I don't remember whether it is then that I tried insurance or not. It is possible then that I was trying to work at this insurance broker's deal. And then this friend of my sister-in-law's, Margaret Clark Williams, died, and left all of us a certain amount of money. My sister-in-law, Mrs. Edwards, myself--I don't remember what it was, $10,000 I guess, each. And what happened then-- yes, then comes the draft time in the U.S. Army.
Mr. JENNER.
That is right; 1941.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And you are in New York City.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I am in New York City. I am called to the draft, and they found I have high blood pressure.
Mr. JENNER.
With the advent of the war in Europe, did you---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, I forgot to tell you.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you volunteer?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. I was mobilized by the Polish Army in 1939--since being a candidate officer, I was mobilized by the Polish Army, got the papers in 1939 that I have to return to New York, and I did return to New York in 1939. That was just exactly after my Texas experience with the Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER.
Your Louisiana experience?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Louisiana, Texas, the same company. And it was just--I was intending to return to Poland, because my father was there---I had very close connection with my father. Somehow I felt maybe it was my duty to be in the Polish Army.
And it was too late. The last boat, Battory, which took the people--I never arrived in Poland.
I reported to the Polish Embassy here in Washington. It was too late to join the Polish Army. Maybe all for the best, because I probably wouldn't be alive today.
Mr. JENNER.
You have some----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
You have to refresh my memory, because, as I say, I never expected questions like this. Sometimes if I make a mistake, it is not my intention.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, I don't suggest you are ever making a mistake. You are calling on your own recollection.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, yes; I am doing my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER.
At this particular time, did you have some, oh, let me call it, tenuous connection with some movie business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER.
Facts, Inc.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. That is another venture I went into.
Mr. JENNER.
This was 1941?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
What was it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I have a distant cousin by the name of Baron Maydell.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, he was a controversial man, was he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
A very controversial person.
Mr. JENNER.
In what sense?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
In the sense that some people considered him pro-Nazi.
Mr. JENNER.
He was accused of being, was he not, during this period, a German spy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No. I don't know that. But he had been an officer in the Czarist Army. He was a White Russian. And having lost everything through Communism, he saw the future of his return to Russia, back to his estates, through German intervention. Like many other White Russians. He possibly was more German than Russian--although he had been a Russian citizen, officer of the Czarist Army, and so forth and so on. A controversial person, no question about it. But I liked him. And he offered me to learn something about the making of documentary movies.
Mr. JENNER.
Documentary?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes--which is Facts--what was it called? Film Facts Incorporated.
Mr. JENNER.
Film Facts I think is the name of it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
And he had a very interesting movie there of the Spanish revolution which he made. And this movie was shown all over the United States and was backed by--this, again, is my recollection, because it almost escaped from my mind. This movie was backed by quite a number of people here. I remember most of them---by Grace, who is president of Grace Lines today. So we decided with Maydell that we could make another documentary movie on the resistance of Poland. This is already--Poland had already been occupied. The movies were made in Poland, I think, by Americans. I don't recall that exactly--by Americans who were there during the occupation of Warsaw. And Maydell had these movies in his possession, and we decided to make a movie for the benefit of the Polish refugees.
Mr. JENNER.
Resistance movement?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. And collected money to that effect, small amounts of money from the sympathizers of Poland. To me it was actually a very pleasant experience. I tried to do my best, number one, to make some money; number two, to help the Polish cause.
So I went to the Polish Consulate, made arrangements for the consul to be a sponsor of this movie. And we eventually made this movie, put it together. It was about 45 minutes long--a very interesting movie, very moving picture of the resistance. But financially it was not a success. I don't even recall why. Either Maydell never gave me any money or something. Anyway, we broke up our partnership.
The movie did make some money for the Polish resistance fund. I think they used it showing around the country. The Polish organizations in the United States used that movie to show and collect money for their own purpose.
Mr. JENNER.
Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I remember the picture was called "Poland Will Never Die." It was an assembly job.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, your interest was a business interest?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; we also cut it together. We put the music together. I learned a little bit about the technical end of it. We did not own the studio, but we used the studio on the west side in New York to have the technical facilities. Not very complicated. But we did it all together.
Mr. JENNER.
Was your grandfather born in this country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; great grandfather, or great, great grandfather.
Mr. JENNER.
Sergius Von Mohrenschildt, born somewhere in Pennsylvania, later went to Russia, entered the oil business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I will be darned. I didn't know that.
Mr. JENNER.
I am not saying it is so.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I don't remember. We have in the family some Baltic Swede, an ancestor of ours, who was an officer of the Independence. Army. But his name was not Mohrenschildt. He was Baron Hilienfelt. My brother knows of that, because he is more interested in it. He became an officer in the Army of Independence, took the name of Ross. He was an officer in the Army of Independence, and then went back to Europe and died there. And somebody was telling me there was on his tomb in Sweden, I went later on to Sweden, and I was curious and inquired about it. It was said he was a lieutenant or captain in the American Army of Independence. So my brother, I think, because of that, being an older member of the family, had the right to be---what do you call it--a descendant---
Mr. JENNER.
Of the American Revolution?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. He told me either he became a member of it, or could become a member of it. I have to ask him about that.
Mr. JENNER.
All right.
Did you once describe your work in the insurance business as the lousiest, stinkingest, sorriest type of business possible?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And that wine company--was that the Vintage Wine, Inc.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; I also was doing some selling of wine in Vintage Wine, Inc.
Mr. JENNER.
On a commission?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And you have mentioned the Shumaker Company.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Is the name Pierre Fraiss familiar to you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; this is one of my best friends.
Mr. JENNER.
Is he still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
What business was he in then?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
He was then chief of export of Schumaker and Company.
Mr. JENNER.
Did Mr. Fraiss have any connection with the French intelligence in the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you become involved with him in that connection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
When?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, it was just probably in 1941, I presume, in 1941.
Mr. JENNER.
What did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, we collected facts on people involved in pro-German activity, and----
Mr. JENNER.
This was anti-German activity?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
On behalf of the French intelligence in the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; I was never an official member of it, you see, but I worked with Pierre Fraiss, and it was my understanding that it was French intelligence.
Mr. JENNER.
And did that work take you around the country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Tell us about it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I think we went to Texas together again and tried to contact the oil companies in regard to purchases of oil for the French interests.
Mr. JENNER.
Were the Germans also seeking to obtain oil?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER.
And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
We were trying to out-bid them. I think the United States were not at war yet at the time.
Mr. JENNER.
That is right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
And so the French intelligence devised a system whereby they could prevent the Germans and Italians from buying oil by out-bidding them on the free market. We went to Texas. We had some contacts there with oil companies. And also in California. There we met the Superior Oil people of California and other people, too, whose names now I have forgotten.
Mr. JENNER.
When was that work completed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I could not tell you exactly, but I think it is about--it was not completed. We just somehow petered out.
Mr. JENNER.
Were you compensated?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No---just my expenses, traveling expenses, and daily allowance. It was handled by Mr. Fraiss. But no salary.
Mr. JENNER.
Had you----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I think this whole thing, when the United States got into war there was no more activity on their part, you know.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, there was no need to outbid the Germans, because they could not buy oil here anyhow.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. So that is how it ended.
Mr. JENNER.
You mentioned a Mrs. Williams. Was that Margaret Williams?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And she made a bequest to you of $5,000, wasn't it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes--I think $5,000---I thought it was $10,000, frankly.
Mr. JENNER.
Do you remember being interviewed in February 1945?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
By whom?
Mr. JENNER.
Some agents of the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
In 1945?
Mr. JENNER.
Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
They interviewed me a couple of times.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, you have been interviewed more than once.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, at that time you are reported to have said that Mrs. Williams left you the sum of $5,000, and I suggest to you that your recollection was better in 1945 than it is now.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, at or about the time that you were doing work with Mr. Fraiss, did you meet a lady by the name of Lilia Pardo Larin?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
She was in this country, was she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Tell us about that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Oh, boy. Do you want to have everything about me? Okay. I met her through a Brazilian friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER.
What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
The King of Bananas of Brazil--his name will come back to me. Dr.--I forgot his name. Anyway, a rich Brazilian, medical doctor, very wealthy man, who traveled between Brazil and New York. Just recently I was talking about him with the Brazilian Ambassador in Haiti, and he says he is still alive and doing very well.
Dr. Palo Muchado, Decio de Paulo Muchado. An enormously wealthy Brazilian, who calls himself the banana king, who liked American girls, the good life, and very good businessman at the same time.
Mr. JENNER.
You liked American girls, too, didn't you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I am not queer, you know. Although some people accuse me of that even--even of that. Not as much as some other people, you know-- because this girl really was the love of my life Lilia Larin. Anyway, both Machado and I fell in love with this girl. She was a divorcee.
Mr. JENNER.
She wasn't divorced as yet, was she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
She was divorced already once. But she had a husband some place in the background, who was a Frenchman.
Mr. JENNER.
Guasco?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. With whom I got into a fistfight. Well, anyway, the best man won, as it goes in the book, and Lilia and I fell in love--I just got a discharge from the military service in the United States, 4-F, and she invited me to come with her to Mexico. This was my experience with the FBI. Really, it is so ridiculous that it is beyond comprehension.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, on your way to Mexico----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Around Corpus Christi--really, if we didn't have a sad story to discuss, the death of the President, you could laugh about some of the activity of the FBI, and the money they spend following false trails.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, they don't know they are false when they are following them.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. I don't know whose advice they followed.
But, anyway, here we were about ready to enter Mexico and stopped for awhile in Corpus Christi. And there we decided to go to the beach, from Corpus Christi. I think my visa was not ready yet.
Mr. JENNER.
You stayed at the Nueces Hotel in Corpus Christi?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; and we went to the beach.
On the way back from the beach, all of a sudden our car was stopped by some characters.
Mr. JENNER.
Excuse me. You went to Aransas Pass?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And when you were in Aransas Pass, what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
We swam; and probably stayed on the beach enjoying the sunshine.
Mr. JENNER.
Now---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
What do they say we did?
Mr. JENNER.
Did you make take some photographs when you were in Aransas Pass?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Possibly; of each other.
Mr. JENNER.
You took no photographs of a Coast Guard station at Aransas Pass.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I don't recall that.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you make any sketches?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes--because I like to sketch. By the way, I forgot to tell you, I like to sketch. I sketched the dunes, the coastline, but not the Coast Guard station. Who gives a damn about the Coast Guard station in Aransas Pass?
Mr. JENNER.
I can tell you that is what got you into trouble.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Is that so? Well, you know, you are the first one to tell me about that.
Mr. JENNER.
I want to know this. This interest that you say you have, which I will bring out later, in sketching, in painting, water colors, and otherwise--you and this lady with whom you were in love were down at Aransas Pass, you went down there for the purpose of having an outing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. I even have those sketches today, of the Bay of Corpus Christi, of the seashore near Aransas Pass.
Mr. JENNER.
You apparently were not aware of the fact this country was then at war.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
But nobody told me there was any military installations around Aransas Pass.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, you were seen sketching the countryside.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And that aroused suspicion.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. That is the whole thing.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, you were driving cross-country, were you not, with this lady friend of yours?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And on the way back then from Aransas Pass----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Some characters stopped the car and came out of the bushes, and they said, "You are a German spy." They said, "You are a German citizen, you are a German spy." It was very strange. Here is my Polish passport. So--they never said anything about sketching. I thought they were from some comedy actors.
Mr. JENNER.
Didn't they identify themselves?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I think they said they were from the FBI.
Mr. JENNER.
They might have been from some other government service.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Maybe some other government service. But I have the impression they told me they were from the FBI, and they followed me all the way from New York--all the way from New York.
Mr. JENNER.
In any event, five men stopped you at that time, searched your car?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Searched the car, found absolutely nothing, except the water colors, the sketches. I still have the sketches.
Mr. JENNER.
With that experience, did you proceed on into Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
They were very insulting to this Mexican lady, very insulting. And I think she made a complaint about them later on to the Mexican Ambassador. And being a vicious Mexican girl, she doesn't forget that. I think she told them they stole something from her. That I do not recall exactly.
Mr. JENNER.
As near as I can tell, she never made any such complaint officially.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I think she told me she will complain officially.
Mr. JENNER.
She complained, but she never complained anything was stolen.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
You reached Mexico City?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And--with this lady.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And you remained in Mexico how long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, that is 5 months, 6 months--until they expelled me from Mexico.
Mr. JENNER.
Does this refresh your recollection--that you made a statement in 1945 when you were questioned that you remained in Mexico City for approximately 9 months, not doing much of anything except painting and going around with Lilia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. I did something. I invested some money in a sugar factory there. I visited a sugar company there, and the manager of the sugar company told me to invest some money in that outfit, because it was going to---the stock was going to go up, which I did. I made some nice money out of that investment.
Mr. JENNER.
You had funds when you went into Mexico, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
You had some letters of credit?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Would that amount to around $6,000?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Probably.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you travel to various places in Mexico during this 9 months with this lady?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I had an apartment on my own in Mexico City, on Avenue De the main street of Mexico City. I don't recall the name. Paseo de la reforma.
Mr. JENNER.
Towards the end of that 9 months you ran into some difficulty in Mexico, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Boy, did I get in difficulty.
Mr. JENNER.
Was there a man by the name of Maxino Comacho?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
General in the Mexican Army.
Mr. JENNER.
And as a result of--just give me that in capsule form.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I think he wanted to take my girl friend away from me. We were going to get married.
Mr. JENNER.
You were serious about that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Very serious. She was getting a divorce. I think by the time she got to Mexico---she already got a Mexican divorce. I am sure she did. She was already free.
Mr. JENNER.
She had a Mexican divorce, but there was some question about whether it was good in the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right; something like that. Anyway, she was getting a divorce. She was an exceedingly beautiful person. We thought about getting married. And then this character intervened and had me thrown out of the country.
Mr. JENNER.
I am not interested in his accusation, but he made some accusation?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
He did, really?
Mr. JENNER.
I am asking you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; no accusation. He said, "You are persona non grata in Mexico." I actually went to the American Embassy, as far as I remember, and said, "I am a resident of the United States, and why am I being thrown out of the country?" I don't know if they have done anything about it. Anyway, they suggested for me to leave, and go back to the States.
Mr. JENNER.
You didn't leave immediately, did you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I went into hiding for a few days, because some Mexican friends tried to have it all fixed. I remember the names of those Mexicans who tried to help me.
Mr. JENNER.
Manuel Garza; was he one of them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And your attorney?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; and Cuellar, another attorney. He is still a good friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER.
You then returned to the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
They said, "That is the best way for you, to leave, because you cannot fight against the constitutional forces of Mexico."
Mr. JENNER.
While in Mexico, you engaged in no espionage for anybody?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No.
Mr. JENNER.
You were in love with this lady?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER.
And you saw her frequently, and her friends and other friends, and did some traveling around Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Where did you get the money to do that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, $6,000, you know. And then we shared alike. And I told you that life in Mexico was very cheap at the time. You could live on a hundred dollars a month. One of my best friends there at the time was a young MacArthur boy.
Mr. JENNER.
General MacArthur's son?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Nephew, the son of MacArthur, the playwright. He was also living in Mexico, very close friends. We made some trips together. The son of John MacArthur.
Mr. JENNER.
You eventually returned to America, to the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
You went back to New York?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
By train?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
As a matter of fact, you went by chair car?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That I didn't remember. How did you know that? I don't remember, frankly. Those FBI people are excellent in following a chair car. But, believe me, they are very often----
Mr. JENNER.
Was it about this time when you returned that you started to work on your book, "A Son of the Revolution"?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, we are in what year--about 1942, 1943?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, about that.
Mr. JENNER.
1942, I think.
Now, upon your return to New York, what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I was working on that book. I sold that interest in the sugar company--that is, the Mexican outfit I told you about--and then I remember once I went to Palm Beach.
Mr. JENNER.
Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
What else did I do then?
Mr. JENNER.
When you reached Palm Beach you met the lady who became your first wife, Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Tell me who was Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Dorothy Pierson was an attractive girl, the daughter of a local real estate man whose mother was married to an Italian, Cantagalli, Lorenzo Cantagalli, from Florence. And the mother and daughter came back to the United States during the war. She was the daughter of Countess Cantagalli by the first husband, who was an American. That is why her name was Pierson. And, anyway, Dorothy and I fell in love with each other and got married.
Mr. JENNER.
She was quite young, was she not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Very young.
Mr. JENNER.
About 17 or 18?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And you subsequently married where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
In New York.
Mr. JENNER.
In New York City?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
New York City.
Mr. JENNER.
And that marriage subsequently ended in divorce, did it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
When?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
About a year later.
Mr. JENNER.
You were married just a short time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Just a short time. A child was born.
Mr. JENNER.
There was a child born of that marriage?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And that child's name was Alexandra?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
Is she still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
I will deal with her subsequently, if I might. The divorce took well, we might as well close up with Lilia. You never married her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No.
Mr. JENNER.
When you got back to the United States----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
We pursued correspondence, and I intended to marry her, and go back to Mexico. But there is no way of getting back to Mexico.
Mr. JENNER.
The records indicate that you made some effort here in Washington to obtain reentry into Mexico, and you were unable to do so.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
And that Lilia attempted to assist you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And she attempted to come into this country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
She also was persona non grata at the moment, is that right?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
She had two sons?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
One of them was in Racine, Wis.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Both of them were in military academy--young boys.
Mr. JENNER.
And in any event, that eventually petered out?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
And you met Dorthy Pierson in Palm Beach, Fla.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And you subsequently married her in New York City, on the 16th of June 1943?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is the date. The dates of my marriage are very vague now in my mind. I am taking your word for it.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, I don't want you to take my word for it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
It is probably correct. You must have it some place.
Mr. JENNER.
Do you recall your daughter's birthday--it was on Christmas Day, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
1943?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
During the period you were married to Dorothy in New York City, what did you do, if anything, other than work on your proposed book?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I had an exhibition of my paintings.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, I want to get into that. While you were in Mexico, did you do some painting?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I did a lot of painting--a whole tremendous file of paintings in Mexico.
Mr. JENNER.
And did you subsequently exhibit those paintings?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Newton Gallery, New York, 57th Street.
Mr. JENNER.
And did those paintings receive comment from the critics?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
The newspapers wrote about them, that they were original, but the sales were hardly successful, if I may say so.
Mr. JENNER.
Do you still have some of those paintings?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; some I have given away, but I still have some.
Mr. JENNER.
They are water colors?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Water colors, washes; yes. But no military installation--the tropical jungle. Girls, tropical jungle, Mexican types--I am very fond of Mexico. Roderick MacArthur and I tried to make a trip at the time through the wilderness of Mexico together in an old Ford which belonged to him; the road did not exist yet, so we went together in this old broken down Ford, drove, drove and drove a couple of days with no roads, and finally one evening--- -
Mr. JENNER.
This is in Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; during that time.
Mr. JENNER.
During the 9 months you were there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; we hit a steel pole sticking out in the middle of the trail, and the whole car disintegrated under us. So we walked back a couple of days in order to get back to Mexico City. We left the car right there.
Mr. JENNER.
Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
If you see him in Chicago--I will write to him again; and I hope to see him.
Mr. JENNER.
You came to Texas in 1944, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
1944.
Mr. JENNER.
Do you recall making a loan at the----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Russian Student Fund?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. After my divorce I decided that I am still interested in this oil business, and all my pursuits in various directions are not too successful, so I should go back to school and study geology and petroleum engineering.
Mr. JENNER.
Had you made inquiry at the Colorado School of Mines?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. Tried Colorado School of Mines, Rice Institute, and University of Texas.
Mr. JENNER.
All right. You are now about 33 years old, somewhere in that neighborhood?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
During these years you led sort of a bohemian life, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. Well, you see---bohemian and trying to make a buck, as you might call it.
Mr. JENNER.
I am trying to bring out your personality.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right. But you see the main reason I actually came to the United States is to look for a country which did not have-- which was a melting pot, because I am a melting pot myself, as you can see. I changed from one country to another, a complete mixture. So I thought that would fit me right. And eventually it did. It took a long time to get adjusted to it. The first five years are very difficult in the United States. I didn't speak English very well. And it was just tough going. Fortunately I had friends, acquaintances, and a lot of relations. But, otherwise, I probably would have starved. And it did actually happen that I did starve occasionally. So I decided to go----
Mr. JENNER.
You were young and full of energy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
While working for the Humble Oil Co. I said that a man without the education in that particular field--I did not have the background of geology or petroleum engineering, except that I kept on studying by myself. I didn't have much chance to succeed. I was wrong, by the way. I should have followed Mr. Blaffer's advice and gone in the oil business, and I would have been a multimillionaire today.
Mr. JENNER.
Well, you might still be.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I probably will be. But really that was--he was the man, the only man who gave me the right advice of all my friends and acquaintances. He said, "George, go on your own and try to speculate on oil leases and drill wells on your own," which is the basis of the oil industry. "We will give you a lease, you can promote some money to drill on it, and here you have it." And that is what happened. That is the origin of many, many of my friends in Texas who are very wealthy.
Mr. JENNER.
All right. You came to Texas----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Came to Texas----
Mr. JENNER.
1944.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
That was following your divorce from Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. Got a loan.
Mr. JENNER.
You entered----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Entered the University of Texas, and School of Geology, and Petroleum Engineering as my minor--major in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering. And with a fantastic effort and speed I succeeded in getting my master's degree in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering in 1945, I think.
Mr. JENNER.
You received your master's in 1945, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And in petroleum geology?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; with minor in petroleum engineering.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you pursue your studies further?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; well, I wrote a dissertation. I pursue my studies as the time goes by. But that was the end of my education in American schools.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, while you were at the University of Texas, did you serve as an instructor----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
In French.
Mr. JENNER.
You had no tenure there? You were not a professor?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; an instructor in French, to make some additional money.
Mr. JENNER.
When did you complete your work at the University of Texas--all of your studies?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
In the fall of 1945.
Mr. JENNER.
How long were you at the University of Texas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I think about 2 years.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, following your obtaining your master's degree at the University of Texas, did you enter into business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; I got a job waiting for me in Venezuela, the Pantepec Oil Co. in Venezuela.
Mr. JENNER.
What was the nature of that work?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I worked as a field engineer.
Mr. JENNER.
In Venezuela?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. Very good salary; pleasant conditions. But eventually fought with the vice president.
Mr. JENNER.
What?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Eventually I got into some personal trouble with the vice president, and this time was not kicked out but through mutual agreement it was decided between Warren Smith, who was my president, and a close friend, that I should resign and also----
Mr. JENNER.
When did you leave that position?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Some time in 1946.
Mr. JENNER.
I interrupted you. You were going to add something.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Some time in 1946. And also I wanted to come back to the States to renew my citizenship paper application, because I would lose my citizenship papers by staying in Venezuela too long, you see.
It was an American company all right, but I think it was incorporated in Venezuela.
Mr. JENNER.
Did you have to have a passport to get to that position in Venezuela?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; well, I think I still have my Polish passport. But I had a reentry permit to the States.
Mr. JENNER.
So you returned to the United States in 1946?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Then what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I arrived back through New York, but stayed a very short time, and went to Texas again.
Mr. JENNER.
What town?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
To Houston. To look for a job. I did not want to be in a tropical part of the United States, in a hot part. I was trying to find a job somewhere in the northern part of the United States. And then I heard that there is a job available as an assistant to the chairman of the Rangely Field Engineering Committee.
Mr. JENNER.
At Rangely, Colo.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And what was the field engineer's name? He is now dead, is he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; Joe Zorichak.
Mr. JENNER.
There was an assistant. What was his name? There were two of you assisting the chairman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I don't remember the other assistant's name. I was the only one in the office. Later on--we were part of the group of all the oil companies operating there. But we were the only ones actually working for the committee. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER.
I will find it here in a moment.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
You see, this committee was a consulting organization set up by, I think, 8 or 10 oil companies operating in Rangely Field, which is the largest field in Colorado, in the Rocky Mountains. It still is.
Mr. JENNER.
Does the name James Gibson sound familiar to you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; Gibson--James Gibson; yes. But he was not in our oufit. He was an engineer for Standard Oil of California. But he worked very close to us. In other words, he was an employee of the Standard Oil of California.
Mr. JENNER.
Does the name J. M. Bunce sound familiar to you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Who is he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
He was a representative of a pumping outfit from California who sold oil well pumps.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, this Rangely Engineering Committee was formed by the various oil companies?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And they were operating in the Rangely, Colo. oil field, is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And for the purpose of compiling statistics and engineering data for the entire field.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No, yes; this and also to allocate production to various wells in the field, because we didn't have any regulatory body in Colorado at the time. We actually applied a certain formula to each well to see how much each well would be allowed to produce. This was our main job, you know.
Then, of course, our job was to coordinate the technical advances in that field and promote the new methods of drilling producing, to cut down expenses in the field. Among other things, we introduced diamond drilling there, drilling with diamond bits, which eventually became very, very successful.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, this was what--1947?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
1946, 1947. I stayed there, I think, about 3 1/2 years, something like that. 3 years, maybe.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, at this time you met and married your second wife, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Phyllis Washington?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, tell us about that a little bit.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I went on a vacation to New York, met a very pretty girl, and she was willing to follow me in the wilderness of Colorado, which she did. She was young and a little bit wild. But very, very attractive and adventurous. And she came with me to Colorado--without being married.
Her father was with the State Department, Walter Washington.
But I didn't know him.
Mr. JENNER.
She was an adopted child?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
Her name originally was Wasserman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; something like that. And she was a beautiful girl who decided to come to Colorado with me. She stayed with me, we fell in love. She created a terrible confusion in Colorado. Imagine an international beauty with bikinis. I don't know if it is for the record. With bikinis, walking around the oil fields. But she was a wonderful girl, wonderful girl. She gave up the possibility of going to Spain, where her father was appointed charged d' affaires at the time. She decided she would rather stay with me in Colorado in the wilderness.
And I will tell you, that was a terrible place. That was the last boomtown in America, Rangely, the last boomtown in the United States. We lived in shacks, we lived in 40-degree below zero temperature, mud. It is the roughest place you ever saw in your life.
Mr. JENNER.
You eventually tired of Rangely, Colo., and moved over to Aspen, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No; I didn't move to Aspen. I just had a little cabin in Aspen. I had a cabin in Aspen, and would go there on weekends. But then I became chairman.
Joe Zorichak resigned his position and moved to Dallas as assistant president of the American Petroleum Institute, assistant to the president of the API. And I was appointed to replace him.
Mr. JENNER.
Was it about this time that you took residence in Aspen?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, no; about that time, I would say--I didn't take residence. I just had a cabin in Aspen.
But I commuted between Rangely and Aspen.
Mr. JENNER.
That is quite a commutation. It is 165 miles, isn't it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Nothing for the oil field.
Mr. JENNER.
But it takes a long time to get 165 miles.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
3 hours. But naturally I would go there on the weekend and come back. Probably they accuse me of spending all my time in Aspen. But, anyway, what finally happened is, good or bad, we decided to sever connections with the Rangely Engineering Committee. They decided to stop completely the Rangely Engineering Committee.
Mr. JENNER.
You had some difficulties with them before they decided to break it up, didn't you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
I don't remember too much of a difficulty.
Mr. JENNER.
Was there something about your spending too much time over at Aspen, and not being---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, they never told me that. But possibly.
Mr. JENNER.
The severance of your relationship was mutual?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes, I think so. I don't think--you may call it I was fired, but I don't think so. As far as I remember, we just got together with the manager of Texaco in Denver and he told me, "George, we are just going to stop the operation at Rangely Field of the Engineering Committee." I was the only one left, you see. So I said fine, stop it.
Mr. JENNER.
And this was about when?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I forgot to tell you. Since you are interested in my character--is that it?
Mr. JENNER.
Yes, of course.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
At Rangely, Colo., it stopped being an operating oil field, and it became a statistical job. When I moved there first it was the greatest boomtown and the greatest drilling place in the United States. We had 30 rigs going. It was very interesting.
Every day we had new problems. It was a very active life. Then at the end of my stay there was no work practically except to compile the statistical report. So naturally I started going to Aspen more often. I don't think I ever had any complaint against me.
Mr. JENNER.
You were interested a great deal initially when the field was being developed.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
When it degenerated, if I may use that term, into a statistical assembly, you lose interest, spent more time over at Aspen, and there were some disagreements about that, a difference of opinion, and your employers questioned it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
That is right.
Mr. JENNER.
Was there any problem about your savoir-faire, for example, attitude with respect to keeping expenses?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Maybe so. But you know, our salary was very small there, and so we had to show certain expenses. They never questioned me. But possibly they considered my living expenses were too high. But I was the only one to do the job, instead of two. I kept the budget, more or less, at the same level, maybe lower.
RIGHT SIDE OF PAGE IS CUT OFF.
eventually--she drank, also, an awful lot. Today she is an alcoholic--poor girl.
Mr. JENNER.
You entered the oil consulting business in Denver?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. First of all, as just an ordinary consultant. I got helped by a friend of mine who has a small oil company in Denver.
Mr. JENNER.
What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Jimmy Donahue. And he facilitated by giving his office, the secretary and so on. Because it is rather expensive to start on your own.
But very soon afterwards I started getting consulting jobs--doing evaluations on the wells and things like that. And one night--this will be interesting for you, how to start an oil business--one night I was driving through Oklahoma, tired as hell, and I said to myself, by God, everybody is making money in the oil business except me, I am just a flunky here for all these big operators--I should go in the oil business on my own, really in the oil business, drilling and producing, which was interesting to me. And then I recalled that my exnephew, Eddie Hooker, in New York, asked me to go in business with him. He had visited me in Colorado and was very much interested in the work I had done. I gave him a telephone call from some place in Oklahoma.
I said, "Eddie, how about it?"
He was working for Merrill Lynch at the time.
And he said, "George, I am ready. I am tired of Merrill Lynch."
Mr. JENNER.
Merrill Lynch, Fenner and Beane at that time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. "I am tired of that Merrill Lynch, Fenner and Beane."
We formed a limited partnership together.
Mr. JENNER.
And that is the partnership of Hooker and De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And that was when--1950?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes; I think so---1950.
Mr. JENNER.
And did it last very long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
It lasted, I think, 3 years.
Mr. JENNER.
About 2 years?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
2 or 3 years.
Mr. JENNER.
And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Now, We made money, we lost money, but it was a pleasant relationship. We are still very good friends.
Mr. JENNER.
What did you do in connection with that partnership?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Well, I did buying of the leases, doing the drilling, and helped him in New York, also, to raise money.
Mr. JENNER.
He handled the financial end, or raising of money end?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
And you the field work?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. Sometimes--we opened an office in New York, a small office. He was in New York most of the time. I was in Denver. Our first well was a dry hole, a disastrous dry hole. But our second well was a producer. We made some production. But never anything big.
Mr. JENNER.
Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Eventually I returned to Texas from Denver, because I had always retained some good friends in Texas, and they suggested, one of them who participated in our well, first venture suggested that, "George, you will do better in Texas, because Wyoming is too expensive"--a well costs $200,000 or $300,000 in Wyoming, you know--in Wyoming or Colorado.
Mr. JENNER.
Now, when you were in partnership with Mr. Hooker, your field work and discovery work was in Wyoming and Colorado, is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
No. We started by drilling our first well in Wyoming, operating from Denver. And we had--we were snowbound there, we paid the rig time for a hell of a long time. To make the story short, our first venture was quite a failure. One of the reasons we finally split partnership with Eddie Hooker is that he is a very wealthy boy. He comes from a very wealthy family. And he wanted the oil business to make millions.
My reason to be in the oil business is to make a reasonable living, and eventually build up some production.
On our first venture in Wyoming, on the very first one, after we bought the leases, and before starting drilling, we got an offer from another company to sell out for a very substantial profit, without drilling a well--they would do it. Naturally, I told Ed we should do that instead of running a tremendous risk of drilling our own well. Well, he said if they want to buy it it means that we have something there, the usual story.
I was a little more conservative--I said better sell out and try to find something less risky.
He said if we hit it, we are millionaires right away--which was true--we had a huge block, of 12,000 acres, something like that.
Well, from then on, the next venture was in Texas, and we drilled quite a few successful wells, quite a few dry holes, too.
Mr. JENNER.
You returned to Texas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes.
Mr. JENNER.
What year?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Abilene, Tex., we had the headquarters--that was the center of the small size independent operators at the time.
Mr. JENNER.
What was the name of the hotel at which you stayed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Wooten Hotel.
Mr. JENNER.
And the partnership was still in existence?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.
Yes. Our partnership was broken up after I married Miss Sharples. It was, frankly, a personal thing.
Mr. JENNER.
I think this is a good time to stop, because that is the next phase I want to get into. We can go to lunch.
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)