The Clay Shaw trial testimony of William E. Dunn, Sr.

CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT
PARISH OF ORLEANS
STATE OF LOUISIANA
STATE OF LOUISIANA versus CLAY L. SHAW
NO. 198-059
1426 (30)
SECTION "C"
EXCERPT OF PROCEEDINGS IN OPEN COURT
on February 7, 1969
B E F O R E: HONORABLE EDWARD A. HAGGERTY, JR., JUDGE, SECTION "C"
. . . . Pursuant to the adjournment of Thursday, February 6, 1969, the Proceedings herein were resumed at 10:00 o'clock a.m. on Friday, February 7, 1969, appearances being the same as heretofore noted in the record . . . .
THE COURT: I have been requested by Mr. Dymond of the Defense not to bring the Jury down because he wished to make an oral motion. I will be glad to entertain you, Mr. Dymond.
MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, at this time on behalf of the Defendant we move for permission to withdraw from the registry of the Court, or from evidence, if it is done after it is introduced in evidence, the document referred to by the State in its opening statement as the "VIP Book of Eastern Airlines" for the purpose of having Mr. Gilbert Fortier, a duly qualified handwriting expert, make an examination of the purported signature in that book.
THE COURT: Is there any objection?
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, the State has no objection to that, with this one proviso, that a representative of the District Attorney's Office is present at the time that Mr. Fortier does examine this document.
MR. DYMOND: We have no objection at all to that, Judge.
THE COURT: Very well. At the proper time I will so order the document to be placed in a position where your expert can make an examination of it. Do you have any further motions?
MR. DYMOND: That is all.
THE COURT: Bring the Jury, please.
(Whereupon, the Jury was recalled to the Courtroom.)
THE COURT: Are the State and the Defense ready to proceed?
MR. DYMOND: We are ready, Judge.
THE COURT: Call your next witness.
MR. SCIAMBRA: The State calls Mr. William Dunn.
WILLIAM DUNN, SR., a witness called by and on behalf of the State, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: State your name to the Court, please.
A: William Dunn, Sr.
Q: And where do you live, Mr. Dunn?
A: I live in Clinton.
Q: Clinton, Louisiana?
A: Clinton, Louisiana.
Q: And how long have you lived in Clinton, Louisiana?
A: Practically all my life.
Q: And what is your occupation?
A: Farming and construction work there.
Q: And how long have you been farming and doing construction work?
A: Mostly all my life.
Q: Were you doing this work in 1963?
A: I was.
Q: In connection with this word did you have occasion to do any of this work in Clinton in the summer of '63?
A: I was.
Q: Did you have any purpose to go in to Clinton, Louisiana, in addition to your regular jobs, in the summer of 1963?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: What was that occasion?
A: I was working with CORE in Clinton.
Q: The Congress of Racial Equality?
A: The Congress of Racial Equality people.
Q: And this was in the summer of 1963?
A: 1963.
Q: In relationship with your dealings with CORE, what did this consist of?
A: I beg your pardon?
Q: What were you doing for CORE in Clinton, Louisiana?
A: Trying to help register people up.
Q: Was this the time when they had the registration drive going on?
A: That is right, the registration drive was going on.
Q: Did you get in to Clinton a lot?
A: I did.
Q: In the course of your activity with CORE in Clinton, Louisiana, I call your attention to late August or early September of 1963, and I ask you: Did you have occasion to see any strange cars in town at that time?
A: Yes, I did, I seen a black Cadillac parked in Clinton.
Q: Where was the black Cadillac?
A: Right in front of the Registrar's Office.
Q: Can you remember about when this was?
A: I was standing in front of the Registrar's Office door.
Q: About when was this?
A: About when it was?
Q: Yes, when.
A: Oh, in 1963, late August or early September.
Q: How can you arrive at that time?
A: I arrived because it was about a month and a half before you go to cane farming.
Q: About a month and a half before you go into cane farming. And when was the date you went to cane farming?
A: I didn't understand you.
Q: What date did you go on the cane farming?
A: Usually goes on the cane farming on the 13th of October.
Q: In other words, about a month or a month and a half before October 13, 1963?
A: Month and a half before October 13.
Q: About how far from the Registrar's Office would you say the black Cadillac was parked?
A: Maybe 20 or 30 feet.
Q: Can you describe the black Cadillac?
A: I can.
Q: Would you give us a description?
A: It was a big black Cadillac, shiny looking. I saw mostly the front of it though.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I show you a photograph which the State has marked "S-2" for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you can identify the automobile in this photograph.
A: This looks like the car right here.
Q: Just like the car parked in front of the Registrar's Office?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Was there any particular reason why you happened to notice this car?
A: Yes, it was a strange car to me, I had never seen that car before there in town. Fact of the business, the car was there -- I thought it was the FBI.
Q: You thought the car was the FBI?
A: I thought it was the FBI.
Q: Were there FBI agents in the area at that time?
A: I believe it was.
Q: Would it be fair to say that in the course of this registration drive --
MR. DYMOND: I object to leading the witness, Your Honor, "Would it be fair to say."
THE COURT: Rephrase your question, if you will, Mr. Sciambra.
BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: Were you paying attention to all strange cars in the area at the time?
A: I was, all the strange cars, I was paying close attention.
Q: Can you remember about what time of the day you got there?
A: I got there about 9:00 or 9:30.
Q: In the morning?
A: In the morning.
Q: Was the black Cadillac there when you got there?
A: No, it wasn't there when I got there.
Q: Did you see the car pull up?
A: No, I did not.
Q: What did you do when you got in Clinton that day?
A: I went on and got in the registration line.
Q: Right in the Registration Office, you say?
A: In the Registration Office, yes, near to the Registration Office, but I was in the line.
Q: Did you stay in the Registrar's Office?
A: No, I didn't stay.
Q: -- all morning?
A: I didn't stay in there, I come down and talked with some of the CORE workers I was working with.
Q: Do you remember any of the CORE workers that you talked to when you came downstairs?
A: Corrie Collins.
Q: Corrie Collins was also working for CORE?
A: That is right.
Q: Can you remember approximately where you were standing when you first noticed the black Cadillac?
A: I was standing in front of the Registration Office, just on the outside.
Q: About how far from the car were you?
A: Oh, about 20 or 30 feet.
Q: Did you notice if there were any people in the car?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: How many?
A: I knows one man was setting behind the wheel, and maybe be another one but I am not sure.
Q: In the front seat maybe another one?
A: On the front seat.
Q: But you are not sure about the other one?
A: I am not sure about the other one.
Q: What made you notice the man behind the wheel?
A: Because he was a stranger to me.
Q: How far away from the car were you when you noticed the man behind the wheel?
A: About 20 or 30 feet.
Q: Can you approximate how long you had to look at him?
A: Five or ten minutes.
Q: Can you describe the man behind the wheel?
A: I can. He was -- big shoulders, big man, and gray hair.
Q: Do you see that man in this courtroom today?
A: I do.
Q: Would you point him out, please?
A: (Indicating) Right here.
MR. SCIAMBRA: May we have the record reflect that the witness pointed to the Defendant before the bar, Clay Shaw?
THE COURT: Let it be noted in the record.
BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: What was he doing in the car?
A: Just setting in the car.
Q: Did you notice anyone go up to the car?
A: No, sir, I didn't.
Q: Were there many people in line waiting to register?
A: It was.
Q: About how many people would you say were in line?
A: Oh, 25 or 30.
Q: Did you notice any strangers in the registration line?
A: I did, I noticed one young white boy in the registration line.
Q: (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I show you a picture that the State has marked "S-1" for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you recognize the individual in this picture?
A: That is the boy's picture was standing in line.
Q: Do you know who this person is?
A: I do.
Q: Who is it?
A: Lee Oswald.
Q: Was there any particular reason why you happened to notice this boy?
A: He was a stranger to me, I had never seen him before.
Q: Were there many white people in line?
A: Just a few.
Q: How many would you say?
A: Maybe four or five.
Q: Did you ever talk to Oswald?
A: No, sir, I did not.
Q: About how many times would you say you passed Oswald that day?
A: Just a few times.
Q: Was he in line every time you passed him?
A: Every time I passed.
Q: Do you remember what time you got to talk to the Registrar that day?
A: About the middle of the day.
Q: And how long did you talk to the Registrar?
A: Just a short while.
Q: And who is the Registrar, or who was the Registrar at that time?
A: Palmer.
Q: Henry E. Palmer?
A: Henry E. Palmer.
Q: Can you remember about what time you left the Registrar's Office?
A: I left there about 2:00 or 2:30.
Q: Was Oswald in line when you left?
A: He was in line when I left.
Q: What did you do after you left the Registrar's Office?
A: I went on home, went to my farm.
Q: Did you ever see Oswald get out of that line?
A: No, sir, I did not.
Q: Did you see Oswald's picture in the newspaper after the assassination of President Kennedy?
A: I did.
Q: Did you recognize him?
A: Sure did.
Q: Where did you recognize him from?
A: I recognized him from seeing him in Clinton, my home town.
Q: Did you see Clay Shaw's picture in the paper after that?
A: I did.
Q: Did you recognize him?
A: I recognize him.
Q: Where did you recognize him from?
A: Recognized him from seeing him in my home town setting in the black Cadillac.
MR. SCIAMBRA: Tender the witness, Your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: How did you become a witness in this case, Mr. Dunn?
A: The DA's Office.
Q: Did the DA's Office get in touch with you, or did you get in touch with them?
A: I can't understand you.
Q: Did the District Attorney's Office get in touch with you, or did you get in touch with someone in the DA's Office?
A: They gotten in touch with me.
Q: When?
A: Oh, about a year ago?
Q: About a year ago?
A: That is right.
Q: Had you reported to anybody before the DA's Office got in touch with you?
A: No, sir, I didn't.
Q: In other words, you have no idea how the DA's Office found out about what you know? Is that right?
A: No, sir, I don't have any idea.
Q: They just came to you and you told your story? Is that correct?
A: When they come to me a year ago, I explained to them what I had seen.
Q: About how long did you see that automobile parked there?
A: I didn't understand you.
Q: About how long did you see that Cadillac parked there?
A: Oh, I didn't just pay attention to it at all times.
Q: You first saw it about 10:30, is that right?
A: That is right, 10:30 or 11:00, right.
Q: When was the last time you saw it?
A: When I left town.
Q: What time was that?
A: At 2:00 or 2:30.
Q: So you know that it was parked there from about 10:30 or 11:00 o'clock until about 2:00 or 2:30? Is that right?
A: That is right.
Q: You say that this Defendant Clay Shaw was the man sitting behind that wheel? Is that correct?
A: That is right, that is right.
Q: Before your seeing him in Clinton at the time of the voter registration drive, had you ever seen that man before?
A: I can't ever remember, that I recall.
Q: Well, did he look familiar to you or not?
A: Like he look now.
Q: Did he look familiar to you when you saw him in August or September of 19 --
THE COURT: Mr. Dymond, if you will permit an interruption, I think you might use another term instead of "familiar."
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Do you know what the word "familiar" means?
A: No.
Q: Did he look like you had ever seen him before?
A: No, I had never seen him before.
Q: You had never seen him before?
A: I had never seen him.
Q: The next thing that you saw that looked like him was when his picture was in the paper after he was arrested in 1967, is that right?
A: That is right, it was his picture.
Q: Almost four years later? Right?
A: (The witness nodded affirmatively.)
Q: When was the first time that you ever saw him in person here in New Orleans?
A: At the day the trial started.
Q: I guess you were brought into the courtroom by the District Attorney's Office to look at him? Is that right?
A: Well, I come down here from the DA's Office to look at him and see if I recognized the same man as when I had seen in Clinton.
Q: Right. And they brought you in and told you to look at him?
A: I wanted to come in and look at him.
Q: I know you wanted to, but they asked you?
MR. ALCOCK: I think he answered the question, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I think he has, too.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Did they or did they not ask you to come in and look at him?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know. Who pointed him out to you when you came into the courtroom?
A: Nobody pointed him out to me.
Q: Was he standing by himself or with other people?
A: Setting down.
Q: He was sitting down?
A: That is right.
Q: Was he sitting down in the defendant's chair there (indicating)?
A: That is right.
Q: Now, you say that one of the big reasons for your identifying this defendant as the man that you saw in Clinton was his grey hair, and another one was his shoulders. Is that right?
A: Big shoulders, big man.
Q: Isn't it a fact that the man that you saw in Clinton had longer hair on the top of his head than this man does?
A: (The witness shook his head negatively.)
Q: He didn't?
A: No.
Q: Are you sure about that? Do you mean to tell me you looked to see how long the hair was on the top of that man's head?
A: Look, when the man was in town I noticed the man. Whenever I knows a man I don't hardly forget his face.
Q: I see. And you say that he didn't have longer hair on top of his head than this man?
A: He looked to me like he looks there.
Q: Just like he looks now, hair just the same length on top? Is that correct? Is that right?
A: He looked to me just like he is looking now when I see him in town sitting behind the wheel.
Q: Dunn, isn't it a fact that the man that you saw in that automobile had a hat on?
A: Didn't have no hat on.
Q: And you're positive of that? Is that right?
A: Positive he didn't have no hat.
Q: If I told you that Corrie Collins said he had a hat on and all he could see was his sideburns --
MR. SCIAMBRA: That is objectionable, Your Honor, because it is calling on this man to pass upon the credibility of another witness.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
(REPORTER'S NOTE: No bill reserved.)
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: And you swear he didn't have a hat on?
A: I say he didn't have a hat on, when I saw him sitting in the car he did not have a hat on.
Q: Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
A: No, no, I never been.
Q: You never have. The man that you have identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, had you ever seen him before the day that you say you saw him in Clinton?
A: I never had.
Q: Never had? When did you determine or find out or finally decide for yourself that the man that you had seen in Clinton was Lee Harvey Oswald?
A: I seed [sic] him in Clinton, but we started seeing him after the assassination of President Kennedy.
Q: When you saw his picture on television? Is that right?
A: In the paper.
Q: In the paper?
A: That is right.
Q: Did you read in the paper about the preliminary hearing before a three-judge court that was held in this case?
A: No, sir, I didn't.
Q: Didn't you read about Mr. Shaw going to court after he was arrested?
A: I seen his picture after he was arrested; I recognized him being the man in Clinton.
Q: And you say you remembered then that you had seen that man in Clinton with Lee Harvey Oswald? Is that right?
A: I didn't say I seen him with anyone. I said he was sitting in the car.
Q: I mean in Clinton at the same time that Lee Harvey Oswald was there. Is that right?
A: That is right, that is right, but, now, I didn't see anyone with him. There may have been another in the car, but I am not sure, but I know he was in the car.
Q: You remembered that and you didn't report it to anybody, did you?
A: No, sir, I didn't.
Q: Why didn't you?
A: I thought he was FBI, that is why I didn't.
Q: I am not talking about that, I am talking about after Mr. Shaw was arrested, you saw his picture in the paper and recognized from that picture that he was the same man that you saw in Clinton at the same time that Lee Harvey Oswald was there. Why didn't you report that to anybody?
A: Well, I thought it was FBI.
Q: You thought who was FBI?
A: I thought Clay Shaw was FBI when he was sitting in Clinton in the black Cadillac.
Q: Look, I don't want to confuse you, Mr. Dunn, I am not talking about what you thought in Clinton back in August or September of 1963, I am talking about what you saw in the newspaper back in 1967 when Mr. Shaw was arrested and you say that from his newspaper picture you recognized him as the man that you saw in Clinton at the same time that Lee Harvey Oswald was there. Have I made myself clear on that?
A: I understand it.
Q: Now, when you recognized him as the man that you had seen in Clinton when Lee Harvey Oswald was there, you saw his picture in the paper as having been arrested and charged with conspiring to kill President Kennedy, why didn't you report to somebody that you had seen him there when Lee Harvey Oswald was there?
A: Well, I didn't think I had to report it, had FBI and things checking on different things like that.
Q: And you didn't feel that you had any duty --
A: When I seen his picture, he was arrested.
Q: I see.
A: Now, what cause I have to do with it?
Q: You didn't think that you should report it? Is that right?
A: He was arrested when I seen the picture, when I seen his picture there he was arrested already. I have cause to go and try to get him arrested again?
(LAUGHTER)
THE BAILIFF: Order in the court!
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: How was the man you have identified as Lee Harvey Oswald dressed?
A: I can't understand you.
Q: You have identified this picture shown to you by Mr. Sciambra as the man you saw standing in the registration line. Is that right?
A: That is right.
Q: How was that man dressed when you saw him?
A: I didn't pay attention to his clothes and the side --
Q: You didn't pay any attention to his clothes? Is that right?
A: Not particular.
Q: Did he have a shirt on or not?
A: I didn't pay attention to it.
Q: Is it your testimony you can't even tell me whether he had a shirt on?
A: I wouldn't say, but you know yourself the man wasn't standing in town naked.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, I object.
THE WITNESS: (Continuing) I say I didn't pay attention to his clothes, I paid attention to his face and his size.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: And you can't tell me what color shirt he had on?
A: I couldn't tell you.
Q: You can't tell me what color pants he had on?
A: No, I couldn't tell you that.
Q: Now, the man sitting in the automobile, what kind of clothing did he have on?
A: He had on -- looked to me like a dark suit.
Q: A dark suit?
A: Yes, sir, far as I could see. I couldn't see but only his coat. Let me get clear on that.
Q: Now would you tell us why you would notice the clothing on one man and wouldn't notice the clothing on the other?
A: I thought it was the FBI, and that is the reason.
Q: What has being an FBI agent got to do with your remembering his clothing?
A: Well, I didn't remember the clothing on Lee Harvey Oswald, I remember his face and his size. That is right.
Q: Did Lee Oswald have a beard or not?
A: I didn't remember him having any beard.
Q: Would you say that he did?
A: He didn't look to me like he had no beard.
Q: What is that?
A: He didn't look to me like he had no beard on.
Q: You know what a beard is when you see it, don't you?
A: (The witness nodded affirmatively.)
Q: Can't you tell me definitely whether you saw a beard on the man that you saw standing in the registration line?
A: No, I didn't see any beard.
THE COURT: Answer it. Say whether you saw a beard or not a beard, don't say "I didn't see any beard." Did you see a beard or didn't you?
THE WITNESS: I didn't see a beard.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: I understand you were standing right in front of the Registration Building? Is that right?
A: Right.
Q: This line you were talking about, was that inside or outside the building?
A: I don't understand.
Q: The line of people standing in the Registrar's Office, was that inside or outside the building?
A: Inside and outside.
Q: Inside and outside?
A: Correct.
Q: Were there many people in town at that time?
A: What you mean, was many people in line or in town?
Q: Were there many people in the Town of Clinton at that time?
A: I didn't particularly pay attention to many people being in town.
Q: Well, were there many strangers there?
A: I seen two, maybe three.
Q: What is that?
A: I seen two, maybe three.
Q: Is that all the strangers that you saw that day?
A: That is right.
Q: You knew everybody else, is that right, at least by sight?
A: I don't understand you.
Q: You knew everybody except those three men by sight? Is that right?
A: Not particularly, but I had seen them before.
Q: All right. You knew them by sight. Now, the automobile, this black Cadillac that you have referred to, was that parked on the same side of the street or the opposite side of the street from the Registrar's Office?
A: Same side of the street.
Q: It was parked on the same side of the street that --
A: -- the Registrar's Office was on.
Q: All right. And you say you were about 20 to 30 feet from it? Is that correct?
A: That is right.
Q: Now, as you walked out of the Registrar's Office, was this car on the right-hand side or to the left-hand side of the Registration Office, or was it directly in front of the office?
A: It was right in front of the office or drugstore we have right there just 20 or 30 feet, right close together, next door, right in front of it.
Q: Would that be a little bit to the right or a little bit to the left as you are walking out of the front door?
A: Now, the Registrar's Office -- you want me to --
Q: I didn't hear you.
A: The Registrar's Office you want me to describe and give you the facts? As you are coming in Clinton on 67 --
Q: You don't have to go into the highway.
A: I have to tell you if you want me to tell you what side.
Q: Let me ask you this: You say there is a drugstore next door to the Registrar's Office?
A: That is right.
Q: Now, is that -- when you are facing the street from the Registrar's Office, is that drugstore on the right-hand side or the left-hand side of the Registrar's Office?
A: On the right-hand side of the Registrar's Office.
Q: On the right-hand side of the Registrar's Office?
A: The drugstore?
Q: Yes. Is it to the right or the left?
A: On the right as you are coming out from the Registration Office.
Q: That is what I want to know.
A: That is right.
Q: Now, was this car parked in the direction of the drugstore on that street, or was it parked in the opposite direction on that street?
A: It was parked right in front of the Registration Office and the drugstore.
Q: Right in front of the Registration Office and the drugstore?
A: That is right.
Q: Then it must have been a little to the right of the Registration Office going out? Is that right?
THE COURT: Mr. Dymond, is there a purpose behind this question?
MR. DYMOND: Yes, of course there is.
THE COURT: All right. I know you are belaboring it. You may proceed.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Is that correct? It would be a little bit to the right of the Registration Office going out?
A: Yes, a little to the right coming out from the Registration Office.
Q: Now, which way was that car facing? Was it facing towards the left or to the right as you came out of the Registration Office?
A: It was facing the Clinton Bank. If you had a picture of it you would know.
Q: Is that to the right or left of the Registration Office when you are coming out of the Registration Office?
A: It was facing the Clinton Bank on the left-hand side, on the wrong side of the street.
Q: I am sorry. We don't know where the Clinton Bank is, but I ask you to picture yourself coming out of the Registrar's Office. The car is parked on the street in front of the Registrar's Office?
A: That is right.
Q: I am asking you whether that car was parked in a direction heading toward your left or to your right?
A: Oh, it was heading towards the left.
Q: Heading towards your left, and you said you had a good view of the man sitting in that automobile?
A: That is correct.
Q: You could see his full grey hair? Is that right?
A: That is right.
Q: And there was another man sitting in that automobile?
A: Maybe, I am not sure.
Q: Maybe?
A: I am not sure.
Q: Well, you were looking at the automobile for ten minutes, weren't you?
A: I paid attention direct to the driver.
Q: Didn't you testify that you were looking at that car with this man in it for about ten minutes?
A: I say five or ten minutes.
Q: And is it your testimony you say maybe somebody else was sitting in the car?
A: May be is right.
Q: And the driver didn't have a hat on?
A: No, he did not.
MR. DYMOND: That is all.
THE COURT: Do you have anything further, any further need of Mr. Dunn?
MR. DYMOND: No.
MR. SCIAMBRA: We have no further need of him.
(WITNESS EXCUSED.)