The testimony of Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II was taken at 1:35 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This will be the deposition of Mr. Wilbyrn Litchfield, II----
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I sign, I sign "W. W. (Bob) II,--does that need to be in there?
Mr. HUBERT. You can bring that out later when I ask you more about your name.
Mr. Litchfield, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, and I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report on the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Litchfield, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know or may know about the death of Oswald, or any other facts you may know about the general inquiry, or, about the possible connection, if any, of Jack Ruby with the death of Oswald or the death of President Kennedy.
I think you have appeared here by virtue of a letter--written request made to you?
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't receive a letter to come?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Sorrels called me long distance.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I must advise you then that under the rules established by the Warren Commission, to govern the procedure of handling witnesses and so forth, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice that we wish to take his deposition, but those rules also provide that if a witness wishes to, he may waive that 3-day notice and just go ahead and testify now. So, I ask you now whether you are willing to waive the 3-day notice and proceed to testify now?
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and I will administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?


Hr. HUBERT. You are commonly known among your friends as Bobby?
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand also that there are some of your legal documents that you always sign that way too?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I sign it "W. W. (Robert) Litchfield, II."
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Now where do you reside?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. 654 West Cross Timbers, Houston, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Professional bowler and bowling instructor and I sell trophies for a bowling supply and bowling equipment office--balls, bags, shoes--etc.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since January of this year--approximately the middle of January.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. From July 1963, until January of 1964, I did not work. In July 1963, from March 1, 1962, until July 1963, I sold books and worked myself up to a regional manager's position.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what company?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was with the Spencer International Press from March of 1962 until May of 1963 working in Dallas-Fort Worth--made district manager in San Jose, Calif. made regional manager February 1963, in Atlanta, Ga. and stayed until May of 1963, and my father's death brought me back to Dallas. I left Spencer and went to work for Great Books of the Western World in June, made district manager in 2 weeks, and was terminated in July due to my past record.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by "past record"?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have a criminal record when I was 19 years old, that's 11 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the nature of it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I forged some hot checks and paid them off, but because I still had a bunch of them out--I had three charges in Fort Worth, eight in Dallas, the sum total was roughly $3,000. Restitution was made prior to the time I went to court. I went to court and received 3 years concurrently on each charge, 3 years on each charge in Fort Worth, 3 years on each charge in Dallas, and concurrently backdated at Fort Worth to August of 1952.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the Federal Court?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; State and county. I was in prison from February--well, I was arrested August 1952, pleaded guilty in Fort Worth in November 1952, pleaded guilty in Dallas in January 1953, went to Huntsville Prison in February 1953, made conditional pardon in December 1953--do you want all this?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and you were released then, I take it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right. Pardon was reversed because I was married and was voluntarily returned from Denver, Colo.; I just came back myself and turned myself in at Huntsville and I was released in April of 1956.
Mr. HUBERT. You were actually released from Huntsville in December 1953, under a conditional pardon?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; to Denver, Colo.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that it was with the permission of the State of Texas--Texas authorities?
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on any terms of good conduct?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had to report each month.
Mr. HUBERT. In Denver?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right, and obtain a job, and I obtained one and my parole officer--I asked him should I tell them I'm on parole, and he said "No," and three places I worked after I was there he called and asked how I was doing and identified himself, which caused my termination, and the last place I worked was a laundry. I was driving a truck and the man told him--do you want the words he used?


Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. "I don't give a damn what he is doing, he is doing a good job." And I have a better recommendation from him that he sent me when I came back to Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. You said something about turning yourself in?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; my parole was revoked in July 1955.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The reason on my revokement is "unadjustment, unable to adjust."
Mr. HUBERT. That was done in Texas or Colorado?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was done in Colorado--in Denver, and in August 1955, I left Denver, Colo. and drove home and said goodbye to Mother and Dad and drove down to Huntsville in fact, my Dad drove down to Huntsville with me.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you found out that the Colorado people had in effect recommended the revocation or revoked your parole, you knew that you would be eventually sought?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Or just sent back.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you just bypassed that and drove yourself into Huntsville?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I went to Austin first to the parole board and they said, "We have already reviewed your case and formulated an opinion. You are going back." And I said, "Well, I'm not going back today, I'll go back tomorrow," and I went back the following day and turned myself in.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. From August 1955 until April 1956, and I was discharged in April 1956.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you discharged completely?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely.
Mr. HUBERT. Or on conditions?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely.
Mr. HUBERT. Completely?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No conditions whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. No conditions at all. Have you had any difficulty since then?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Do you want the FBI fingerprint record for the time I have been picked up? I have been picked up six or seven times for investigation. I was picked up in Arizona for investigation, I was picked up in Florida for investigation, I got low on money--I wrote some hot checks in 1957 in Arlington, Va. and I paid them off and that was my latest.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not charged?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; in Arlington, Va., in 1957, I got 6 months.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you serve any part of that time?
Mr. HUBERT. And how much?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Five months--four months.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you were discharged from that without condition?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes--without condition. That was in a county jail. I was a trustee--I was head cook.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you had any other convictions since then?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since then--no, sir; one felony and one misdemeanor.
Mr. HUBERT. And that's the two you have already told us about?
Mr. HUBERT. When you were 19 and the other one in 1957?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was charged--excuse me--I was picked up in January or February 1958 and returned to Arlington, Va., and I was released at Arlington, Va, in August 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. Since August 1958, you have had no trouble with the law?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Other than the fact that I--of being picked up for investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had no convictions?
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever charged at all--formally, I mean, by actual indictment?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No--no indictments.


Mr. HUBERT. You are not under any charge right now?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you are married; when were you married?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I got married in 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you support yourself between July 1963, and January 1964, when you were unemployed?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. My wife was working--my wife was working and I lived with her and my mother.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you attempt to get work?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes--that's one reason I left Dallas. The person who is division manager of Great Books that terminated me, falsified--the reason I was terminated, he accused me of something I did not do, and I couldn't prove it. It was my word against his. I couldn't prove it, and in January I had a chance to go to Houston to work for Great Books and I went there and I tried to use the name of Robert Field--I had made man-of-the-month for the Great Books organization of the whole United States, and my picture was in their magazine called the Phenix. And the division manager in Houston recognized me and checked it out and then 2 weeks later I had requested from this gentleman here about three orders for me to be paid off. He had said they did not clear, that there was no money involved and 3 weeks later through my bank here in Dallas, Bank of Services and Trust, it just so happens that the man's name is Charles Counter. He has his personal account there also, and I've got him on two counts of forgery right now. He took my paycheck, signed my name, and endorsed it over to him. I have the photostats from the bank and the photostats of the canceled cheeks that cleared the company.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the point I think you are making--that your opportunity to get with Great Books of the Western World in Houston was frustrated because of the fact that you had changed your name and they found out. That is, changed your name to the extent of leaving off the first syllable of your last name?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, and the division manager there even talked to the president of the company and he said "No." So, I went to work for this bowling supply which is owned by F. M. Curtis and Mel Livingston and I told them my past record, and Mr. Curtis is a highway patrolman, he has an interest in the supply business and he said, "I'll give you a break," and I've been doing real good since. He just gave me a break.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you are a professional bowler?
Mr. HUBERT. Have you competed?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; in 1960 and 1961 I did, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I bowled in the All-American here in Dallas, the PBA tour in 1961, I bowled in the Santa Fe Open in 1961 and I bowled in the small--when I say "small" I mean $3,000 to $5,000 total first place, singles and doubles tournaments.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever won any prizes?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, I have won prizes but I have never won the first place--no.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the most that you have won?
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Ardmore, Okla.
Mr. HUBERT. Ardmore, Okla.?
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the year--what tournament was it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It's called the Ardmore Classic. I think they run it from about May to about August. It's 8 games across 16 lanes, handicapped from 2 to 10.
Mr. HUBERT. You won $750--which was not first place, but what?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. About eighth place.


Mr. HUBERT. And you won it under your name W. W. Litchfield or Bob Litchfield?
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were living in Dallas, I take it, in the last 6 months of 1963?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. 302 West Clarendon. I also lived at the Drexel House Apartments.
Mr. HUBERT. Where are they located?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, me, I have forgotten the address---Henderson and Knox.
Mr. HUBERT. Who runs that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I've forgotten the lady's name that runs that.
Mr. HUBERT. Bertha Cheek.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No-she does not run it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Bertha Cheek?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what street she lives on?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do---Bertha Cheek lives on Swiss Avenue. She owns an apartment house on Swiss, but the Drexel House is on--right off the corner of Knox.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever live at Bertha Cheek's boarding house or apartment?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Never?
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to know her?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I met her through a fellow at the bowling alley--I don't remember his last name. He owns an electric company here in town, the one that has the lighting for all the fairgrounds, Bob Sands Electric Co.
Mr. HUBERT. And he operates the bowling alley?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; he was a bowler.
Mr. HUBERT. He was a bowler himself?
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever visit at her place?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, her apartment?
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, let's see, spasmodically from September to October and November of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words you met her----
Mr. LITCHFIELD. In September--I'm pretty sure it was, about the latter part of August or the first of September.
Mr. HUBERT. And you met her by simply being introduced to her by Sands at a bowling alley?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; he told me she had planned on putting in a lounge and Bob had given her my phone number and she called me on the pretext that I might build it and run it for her.
Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see her then?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went to her house?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; on Swiss.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen her before?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never before that--she said she had seen me, but there was no recollection or no introduction prior to that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened to the negotiations that you engaged in with her?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It would be that I would have had to divorce my wife and had to have married her for any other further business to have been transacted.
Mr. HUBERT. If I'm not mistaken, isn't she an older woman than you are a man?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe she is--she's 30-something or 40-something.


Mr. HUBERT. And you are saying to us that she made it a condition?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It wasn't a verbal condition--it was a obvious condition. It was a situation that was arising, let's say that.
Mr. HUBERT. And you perceived that you would have to marry her if this thing was to go forward?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. That, or divorce my wife.
Mr. HUBERT. But she did not say so?
Mr. HUBERT. You think she intimated it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let's say, from my past experience and knowledge of--worldly knowledge--I would assume this, that's being kind of tactful.
Mr. HUBERT. I was wondering if you could point to any events, since you can't point to any words that gave you that impression?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Without being too personal or intimate on my own actions or any actions other than hers, no; and I don't care to be.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Did you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I knew Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Jack used to own the Vegas Club and I used to go there quite a bit.
Mr. HUBERT. How do--how long do you suppose it is that you have known Jack?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, I would say from 1959--October, roughly.
Mr. HUBERT. Continuously?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I will go in and say "hello" to him, see him whenever I would go in. It wasn't a friendship relation that I would go out of my way to call him or see him or that he would call me. He had no way of knowing how to call me. He knew me when he saw me and said,"Hello, how are you?"
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel Club, did you visit it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have been in that place twice.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when that was?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I was associated with Bertha and she was thinking of putting in a business, we looked at a whole bunch of clubs she thought were for sale, and I knew the Vegas Club was not making any money and I would have liked to have tried to buy it from Jack, so one night I went down to see him--I had called and he said he would be there about 10:30 or 11 and he got there about 11:15 or 11:30, something like that, and I discussed the purchase of the Vegas Club and that's when he told me it had, I think, $40,000 worth of Federal liens or something against it which still had it, and he tried to sell me the Carousel and I wouldn't attempt to put in a private club in downtown Dallas; I was thinking of making the Vegas a private club by remodeling it.
Mr. HUBERT. But what you wanted to put in was a private club, not an open or public club like the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. That's right--a private club.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was your opinion that the Carousel was not the proper place for a private club?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right--any downtown location. You see, I cannot obtain an open--let's say a beer license because of my record with the city of Dallas, but I can obtain a private club license from the State of Texas, even though I have a record. I talked to Buddy Mills on the liquor board and he said, "If you haven't done anything in 3 to 5 years--no conviction or anything," you can.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you were in the Carousel and you were there with Cheek?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I was not. I was alone. That was the second time I had been in there. I had been in there one other time--I just went in to see what it was--I didn't speak to anybody at all that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us the date of the second time that you did speak to him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think right around the middle of October--the second week or the third week, somewhere along in there---the exact date no; I cannot.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that at the time or you said once before in your


statement--at the time you were there there were some people taking pictures of the club?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. There were some fellows--you see, when I walked in Jack wasn't there and I told the doorman, whom I found out later was his roommate--I don't remember the man's name, that I was to see Jack on business and he said he wasn't there, and so I sat down and had some coffee and watched the bumps and what have you, and after Jack came in, then he had to see two or three people before me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to mention to the doorman or anybody else around there that you were from California?
Mr. HUBERT. You did so?
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you tell that to, do you remember?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman and some other fellow that was sitting there. He asked me where I was from and I said, "California and Phoenix"--is all I said. I didn't think it was any of his business who I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the other man, other than the doorman to whom you said that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No--he was a little short fellow, I would say late forties or maybe even middle fifties. If I remember right he had kind of a silver hairline. I don't remember--whether he was kind of bald in the center or not, I know it was receding, and he had an appearance of being of Jewish descent.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you might recognize his name?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I doubt it, because when he was introduced to me I didn't pay that much attention to it--no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who introduced you?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman. They were sitting there together drinking a Seven-Up or a Sprite.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, so, you just stayed and waited for Jack?
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you have to wait?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think--30 or 45 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Jack came in?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The dog first, then him.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, did he see you right away?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he walked by me because I was sitting right by the door and he turned and said something to the doorman first and then I think he went on back and put his hat up and came back to the doorman, and that's when the doorman pointed me out--he walked over and said--just a moment--he had two or three other fellows to see him--I was sitting by the door--have you ever been in the Carousel?
Mr. HUBERT. No, sir.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was sitting by the door like this, as you are walking in you have to turn left. There is an aisle and there was a fellow sitting back here by the pole with the light switches on it and there was a fellow sitting in front of me, and then there was the photographer who was there. I didn't meet the photographer until after I had been introduced to Jack and Jack introduced me to him--some magazine for strippers like Male or Stag type magazine and he was taking pictures and he had to get releases from the strippers--some kind of a release they would have to sign so that he could take their pictures.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw him getting the releases from the people?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I saw how he came in and he had the releases in his hand. He said he had to get all of the girls to sign them and he said all of them would sign them except one.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was when you were talking to Jack in his office?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. In his office.
Mr. HUBERT. The photographer came in and said that he had some papers in his hand which you understood to be releases?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he said he had the releases and had to go out and get them signed, and then he came back again and said all except one was signed.


Mr. HUBERT. And it was on that occasion that you talked to Jack about buying the Vegas?
Mr. HUBERT. And he counteroffered by suggesting that you buy the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that that was the last time you saw Jack that night?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was until I saw him on television--I happened to be playing poker then.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of that occasion with reference to particularly the death of the President, about how long before?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, it was probably the middle of October.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was about a month and a little bit before the death of the President?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. He was killed the last half of November--maybe 5 weeks or 6 weeks--it was about the middle of October.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously stated that you saw a man in there on this occasion who you thought was Oswald?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did--in fact, I made the statement, as I was saying a while ago, when I was playing poker--a bunch of fellows from the bowling alley--we usually play on Saturday night. We started about 9:30 and the game continued all through the night--one of those $2 limit games and we were still playing Sunday, and the fellow's wife had carried the children to church and come back and said something about Ruby had shot Oswald on television. No, excuse me, "Had shot him." She had heard it on the radio, and so we turned on the television and they were rerunning all of this and a big hullabaloo over it and that was the next time I saw Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you make any comment at that time that you had seen Oswald in the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had seen Oswald on television before. I said, "That guy looks familiar," and a few of the fellows were around, and I don't remember where I said it there at the poker game, but somebody said, "I think I've seen that Oswald around somewhere," and I made the statement, "Yes, I think I have seen him too," and that was the extent of it. Nothing more was said.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that statement you made that you had seen Oswald around somewhere, was it made before Oswald was shot?
Mr. HUBERT. Did you repeat it thereafter?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did to a friend of mine who is on the vice squad here in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And what is his name?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Donald Green.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you tell him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, it was the day preceding the day that I went down--I think I went down on a Monday to the police station to talk to the FBI agents and everybody, so I must have talked to Don on the Sunday night preceding that or on Saturday. I called him on the phone and I told him, "I think I have seen that man with Jack up at the Carousel." I said, "I don't know, but I'm pretty darn sure I have." And he made some calls and called me back and said the police department right now wants to talk to me, and he met me I believe it was Monday, I'm pretty sure it was a Monday, he met me Monday morning about 9:15 or 9:30 at the coffee shop of the Statler and we walked on up to the police station.
Mr. HUBERT. And you made a statement of that?
Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that same day you made a statement to the FBI?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Two FBI agents.
Mr. HUBERT. I think they asked you to take a polygraph test too?
Mr. HUBERT. And you did?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. And the tests showed that I hadn't seen him because when


the man giving it asked me, "Have you definitely seen him," and I said, "Yes," and it showed that I hadn't.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he told you the results of the test?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he didn't tell me the results of the test, but Donald did--he didn't tell me---he didn't come right out and say, "No," but it was obvious. They had me pick Oswald's picture out of a bunch of police photographs, and anybody on the street could pick that man's picture out. That doesn't mean I have seen him--I told them that--I said, "Heck, anybody walking can pick his picture out."
Mr. HUBERT. And you had observed to someone prior to the shooting of Oswald that you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere?
Mr. HUBERT. Who were the people that you were--that you observed that to?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let me understand your question--whom did I say this to?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I mentioned it like I said, there at the poker game.
Mr. HUBERT. This was the same poker game that went on into Sunday the 24th?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Was that the day that Oswald was killed?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes--that would be it. From Saturday the 23d to Sunday the 24th--I made it then, and----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make it after Oswald was shot at that same poker game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. That's when I made it. We was watching it on television--the rerun of it.
Mr. HUBERT. I had understood you to say that you had said you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere, and that you made that statement prior to the time that Oswald was shot?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I made it once but like I said, I don't remember who I made it to.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not at the poker game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No--the statement at the poker game--we were watching it on television and it showed everything there and someone says, "I think I've seen that fellow," and I said, "Yes; I think I've seen him too." That was the second time I had said it--before when his picture came out and everything, I said, "I think I have seen him," but I don't remember where I was when I said it.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did your poker game begin?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, Saturday night about 9 or 9:30.
Mr. HUBERT. And went on until----
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Into Sunday and until about 6:30.
Mr. HUBERT. In the afternoon?
Mr. HUBERT. So that the first time you made the observation that you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere must have been before the poker game began?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes--it was.
Mr. HUBERT. So that would be before 9 o'clock on Saturday?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes--it was. It was right after the assassination--they were showing all the films and the capture of Oswald, etc., and when I was watching television, I don't remember where I was, I said, "I think I've seen him." And people sitting around me said, "He looks familiar," and I made the statement, "I think I have seen him."
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when Oswald was shot and you made the statement again that you had thought you had seen Oswald, did you say anything that would indicate that you had seen him, Oswald, at Ruby's place?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I just said, "I think I've seen him too," I forgot who it was I said that to, but the guy said, "I think I have seen him or I think I know that guy," and I just said, "Yes; I think I have seen him, too."
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that--then that it might have been that you had seen him at Ruby's place?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I started trying to remember--everybody was sitting around and saying, "Where have you seen him?" Trying to think, and I thought about


it and I remembered seeing a man similar to him, very similar to him at the Carousel that night I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to anybody?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Just Don Green when I called him on the phone and then when I went down to the police department.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to any of the people you were playing poker with?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us the names of the people you were playing poker with, whose house was it at, first?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs [spelling] G-r-u-b-b-s.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Boy, I can't tell you that--I can tell you how to go there, but I don't remember what street it is. You go out Beckley past the A. Harris shopping center--I don't remember the name of the street, you turn left and then you went down a couple of blocks and you turn left again--there were three cars of us and I followed. I don't remember the name of the street.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the names of some of the other people at the poker game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs and there was Ernie Stoy [spelling] E-r-n-i-e and S-t-o-y, and one fellow I just met, he just came in--I didn't know, and another fellow, gee, I sure wish I could remember his name. I know him when I see him--they are always at the bowling alley, he usually bets on the pot games, and he is a big heavy set black headed fellow and Max Lewis was there.
Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling.] L-e-w-i-s?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes [spelling], L-e-w-i-s, and I think there was one more--I don't remember who that was.
Mr. HUBERT. They were all there throughout the game--were they all there throughout the game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Max left Sunday morning and then returned.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time it became known that Ruby had shot Oswald, did you observe to anyone that you knew Ruby?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe I did. I think everybody was saying whether they knew him or not and I believe I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else there know him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think one or two others might have said that they knew him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Grubbs knew him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Who said they knew him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I could assume, but I don't remember who said that they knew him.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you did not at that time say that you thought you had seen Oswald in the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I just said that--you are getting mixed up. I said--when it became obvious that Ruby had shot him, we were watching it on television, and we were, you know, how you are talking, "I think I know him," and I said, "I'm pretty sure I know Jack Ruby," and I said, "What is that idiot doing now?" Or something like that, and I forgot that someone said, "That Oswald, I think I've seen him somewhere before," and that's when I said it.
Mr. HUBERT. You said the same thing, "I think I've seen him?"
Mr. HUBERT. When was it you began to associate Oswald as a man that you had seen somewhere before and as also the man you had seen in Jack Ruby's club the last time you were there?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was that day--not that I was associating necessarily it with Ruby--it was that everybody all of a sudden had seen him and they were trying to think where they had seen him and I was trying to remember where I had seen him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, my point is that you ultimately came to tell Jack Green----
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Don Green.
Mr. HUBERT. Don Green, that you thought you had seen him at the Carousel?


Mr. HUBERT. When did that firm up in your mind, because from what I gather it was not firmed in your mind where you had seen him, on the Sunday when you were playing poker, isn't that right?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct. I wasn't positive then, no, where I had seen him.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you become positive that you had seen him at the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was thinking about it during the week, on Thursday or Friday, and it dawned on me that that looked like the fellow that I had seen in the Carousel.
There was another fellow up there that I had never seen before and made a heck of an impression on me--he was about twice my size, a real flashy dresser, white on white shirt and his suit was a very flashy type, and he had just gotten married, but he, himself, made a heck of an impression on me, the way he was dressed and his size, and this fellow that I had seen in the Carousel made a heck of an impression on me the way he was dressed--he was dressed sloppy--in a sloppy shirt and kind of a gray khaki-type pants. I thought, "What is this idiot doing up here?" You know, because it is known that the Carousel is a clip joint and you've got to be an idiot to go in there in the first place, or a tourist, one of the two, and I just ran--I guess you would just say that it came into my mind that that looked like the fellow I had seen. I was associating the sloppy dress with him because he was dressed sloppy on television and when you see it repeatedly and repeatedly--you remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you think the man might have been Oswald that you saw in the Carousel was dressed on the occasion you saw him, which was the last time you saw Ruby?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. He had on a white sweater and kind of a T-shirt-type sweater, and a pair of, I guess they were gray khakis or they might have been gabardine, there was no crease in them and they were real sloppy and his hair wasn't combed, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't talk to him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, I didn't talk to anybody while I was there other than Jack and I did meet that photographer--I don't remember his name. Jack introduced me, and I did meet that great big guy. He came back into the office--he did once while I was in there with Jack and he had just gotten married to some girl from Galveston and they were celebrating their honeymoon and I was thinking, "You've got to be a nut to come to a place like this to celebrate a honeymoon."
Mr. HUBERT. When you came out of Jack's office, did you see this man that you think might be Oswald in there still ?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When you come out of his office, you can't see nothing--you walk down the hall and turn left and then you are back in the club part of it--the Carousel.
Now, when I came back in the club part, the man that I thought was Oswald had already seen Jack--I was the last one to see him--I don't think there were more than two or three people left in the club--this big heavy-set fellow and his wife were still there.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man you thought was Oswald was waiting to see Jack?
Mr. HUBERT. And he was ahead of you?
Mr. HUBERT. And you had an opportunity to observe him then as the man who got to see Jack before you did?
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there before you got there?
Mr. HUBERT. And was sitting down at the table?
Mr. HUBERT. Was he drinking something?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don't remember if he had something or not. He was in front of me and all I could see was his back at that time.


Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get a look at his face?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When he left he had to walk right by me. The door is not more than--it's one of these partition-type doors and it is not more than 5 feet or 4 feet wide, and the table I was sitting at--I was sitting at the edge of the door. I couldn't help but see him when he walked along there.
Mr. HUBERT. How long was he in with Jack?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No more than 10 or 15 or 20 minutes, maybe, at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. And when he came out you went in Jack's office?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; you see, Jack's office is back, in the back and you got to walk down two halls and Jack came out and got me. This fellow came out and then Jack came out and got me and I went back there with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe what this fellow you thought might be Oswald did at that time?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. He went on out the door.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; not until I saw him on television--and I thought it was the same one.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that impression got firmer and firmer in your mind, as I gather it, as the week went on?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. After that Sunday television seeing Jack shoot him there; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But when you told Don Green your impression, it was not the same day, was it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; it was a week later.
Mr. HUBERT. It was actually the Sunday later?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was Saturday or Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. And the impression began to grow on you more and more that it might well be the same man?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And as a matter of fact, as I understand you, it grew so much that you thought you should tell someone about it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I called Don and asked him what he thought I should do.
Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested coming to the office and I think you have told us about that.
Was there another man around there you heard had come from California?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. There was somebody waiting to see Jack, like I said, that was sitting--there was a aisle going straight and you got to turn left--back by the pole where the light switches are, and he was waiting to see him and I believe he said he was from California and he was in his middle thirties, a black-headed fellow. I never met the man and he saw Jack and he was still there when I left.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. This fellow we are speaking of now.
Mr. HUBERT. From California, you mean?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think he said he was from California. I think when I came in the doorman said, "Well, there are two other people here and the photographer to see him ahead of you," when I first came in, and he said, "He's late now, but you can have a seat and wait if you want to." And the two other people were the fellow whom I assumed that looked like this Oswald, and this fellow, I believe that said he was from California and the photographer--were the three people in front of me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the man who said he was from California talk to the man you think was Oswald?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen Oswald before?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; never had.
Mr. HUBERT. You were shown pictures of Oswald, is that right?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was shown a police photograph of him, front and side view, with three others.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your impression at that time as to whether Oswald was the man you had seen in the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I wasn't asked my impression at that time--all I was asked


is, "Pick out Oswald," and I said, "There he is, anybody walking in Dallas could do it."
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose in having you pick out Oswald?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would imagine the police department wanted to know if I really knew him or really had seen someone like him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you picked out Oswald, were you simply picking out Oswald because you had seen his picture on television, or were you picking him out because he was the man you thought you had seen in the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I picked out his picture, I was picking it out because I had seen it on television so many times.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the police wouldn't ask you to pick out Oswald's picture unless there was some reason for your specific identification of Oswald.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. You had called Green, from what you tell me, to tell him that you thought that you had seen a man who looked like Oswald at the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't that the reason why they were asking you to pick out the man that you had seen at the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would assume--I don't know. I wouldn't know their reasoning behind it. I would assume this would be it, but when I picked him out, I told them at the time, I made the statement, "Anybody in Dallas could pick him out-- he was on the TV so much."
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell them that the man I now know is Oswald from the films and that I am now picking him out is also the man that I saw at the Carousel?
Mr. HUBERT. You told them that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you believe that to be true?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I thought it was until they convinced me I was wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about it now?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said, "It sure as heck looked like him," that's all I can say now. Of course, I don't want to say I'm definitely positive it is--I said, "It's a heck of a close resemblance."
Mr. HUBERT. That's your testimony right now, that as far as the man you saw and have described--sloppy clothes, white jacket--T-shirt type go in and see Ruby before you on an occasion approximately 5 weeks before the assassination of the President, that that man and the Oswald photographs later shown you, you think that they bore a close resemblance?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they do--they bear a resemblance.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather that you were more positive of the identity of Oswald as being the man in the Carousel on the occasion we have been speaking about at one time than you are now?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What has caused your opinion in the matter to weaken?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The fact that they gave me the polygraphic test, that showed when they asked me--was it definitely him, it didn't show up right, and the fact that I had told Don when I called him, I said, "It sure as heck looks like him," and when the police were questioning me, they said, "Are you positive, are you positive, are you positive?"
I said, "It looks like him, it looks like him, it looks like him." And they come back, "Are you positive, are you positive?" And then the fact that when the Federal agents talked to me, they said, "You know, if you say you are positive and it wasn't him," it's a Federal charge, and I said, "Well, I'm not that positive."
Mr. HUBERT. The Federal agent told you if you gave an opinion----
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; they said, "If you give false information as to an exact statement--" not an opinion, but if I say I'm positive, that's a statement.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you conveying to me that you really were positive, but that----
Mr. LITCHFIELD. In my mind.


Mr. HUBERT. You were scared off of it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; no, sir. I said in my mind I was positive that it looked like him, but I'm just as fallible as anybody else. I could be 100 percent wrong. I said, "In my mind, the man that I saw looked just like him," but then again, I can't say 100 percent.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is still your opinion?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said it bears a close resemblance, but not having come in contact with Oswald at all or having never met him or anything, and just seeing him for a fleeting glance, the back of his head and when he walked by me; no, I can't be 100 percent pure positive.
Mr. HUBERT. But you knew all of that the first time you told it to Green?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, "It sure does look like him--the man I saw there sure does look like Oswald," those are my words.
Mr. HUBERT. But, what has caused you to weaken in your opinion it was Oswald, as you tell it to me, is the fact that you got the impression that if you gave a positive identification and it proved to be false, that it would be a Federal offense, is that correct?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they said, giving false information to the FBI, and I'm not 100 percent pure positive. I say, "It bears a close resemblance," and this is all I can say.
Mr. HUBERT. And that's all you did tell them?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; that's the statement I signed.
Now, the big heavy-set fellow that I met, I shook hands with, made an impression on me. I was as close to him as I am to you now, or closer. I shook hands with him, and I saw him more than for a fleeting moment.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to show you a picture and ask you if you can see any resemblance between the picture I am going to show you and the man you thought might be Oswald--this picture I am going to show you, the man is dressed up, but if you can use your imagination to see if there is any resemblance?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. To see if there is any resemblance?
Mr. HUBERT. To see if there is any resemblance in the face, at least, and the hair, and so forth?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; Oswald's hair isn't that thick in the center.
Mr. HUBERT. I'm not talking about Oswald, I'm talking about the man you saw at the club you thought might be Oswald.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; there is no resemblance.
Mr. HUBERT. There is no resemblance?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the picture that I have shown to the witness has been identified as Exhibit 5302 in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. Do you know Captain Fritz of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had difficulties with him?
Mr. HUBERT. In what regard?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. He sent two men to the place that I was working and had them pick me up for investigation without a warrant, bodily remove me out of my office, and held me on robbery by firearms, which I couldn't have a writ of habeas corpus that night, or something, I had to go before a judge or something, and I didn't get out until the next morning, and he didn't even appear at the hearing.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. That was in--I think it was March or April of 1961, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven't seen him since?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, when I had to go down to the police station, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the next morning?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; when I had to go down for questioning. No, he didn't even show up at the hearing there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Jess Willard Lynch [spelling] J-e-s-s W-i-l-l-a-r-d L-y-n-c-h?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don't think so--the name doesn't sound familiar. I know a Lynch, but Jess Willard Lynch?


Mr. HUBERT. What Lynch do you know?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I know a Donald Lynch from school.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he in Dallas?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. How long has it been since you have seen him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. High school.
Mr. HUBERT. I see--that is to say about 10 or 12 years ago?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Roughly--that name doesn't sound familiar.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a person by the name of Earlene Roberts?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Earlene Roberts--I don't remember whether I know her or not. Closely, I don't--I could have dated her or seen her, but closely, I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. I'll put it this way, when I mention the name of Earlene Roberts, do you associate it with anybody you know?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I used to go out quite a bit in my life, and I went with a number of people, and I was thinking that I dated one time a girl named Earlene, but I don't remember her last name that's why I stopped and hesitated.
Mr. HUBERT. And that's the person whose image came to your mind when I mentioned Earlene Roberts?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that Earlene Roberts, that I am talking about, is the sister of Bertha Cheek?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. If she's her sister, I was trying to think if I ever met Bertha's sister. I talked to her on the phone once. Bertha told me she had two sisters, I believe, wait a minute--Earlene Roberts is the one that lives in California, I believe, I believe it is, and Bertha went out to see her, maybe, when Bertha went out to California 4 or 5 days on some business, and then I was helping her remodel the home over there and painting then, and I think I had to call her and I think Earlene Roberts was the person I called in California, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. You called the person in California for Cheek?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. To talk to Bertha when she was out there.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Maybe October--maybe November.
Mr. HUBERT. It was after you were negotiating with her?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, but I don't remember the exact date. I knew that name sounded real familiar.
Mr. HUBERT. Bill DeMar, or have you heard of him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. You will have to associate it with something for me.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was an MC at Jack's Carousel Club.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I don't know that man. I saw him--he did a song or something while I was there, but I don't know him, if that's who it is--I don't know him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the story in the Press after Ruby shot Oswald that he said that he had seen him at the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I never knew of that--I never knew that.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by anybody of the Commission's staff other than myself?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; the only people I have talked to is the Dallas Police force and to two FBI agents, and I didn't have any knowledge that you would talk to me until yesterday. They called long distance for me and he called me this morning-- I bowl in a scratch league on Thursday night and he told me I had to be here at room 301 at 3 p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we pushed it up a little bit for you.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, Mr. Sorrels called me this morning and asked me if I could make it earlier, and I said "I will leave on the flight 11:45 and I am booked definite at 5:15 going back and on a standby on this one here."
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can make the 5:15 now, because you are through right now.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it. I will get to see my wife for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

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