The testimony of Mrs. Lillian Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La. by Mr. Albert E. Jennet, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Lillian Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, La., after first being sworn by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Murret, you received, did you not, a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Asking you voluntarily to appear here for the taking of your deposition.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And there was enclosed with that letter, was there not, three documents.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - One was Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, which is the legislation authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, our President; another was the Executive order of President Johnson appointing the Commission and empowering it to proceed, the Executive Order being No. 11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations for the taking of testimony, adopted by the Commission itself. Did you receive those?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Now, if you can remember, Mrs. Murret--and don't feel offended by this--but ordinarily witnesses do nod or shake their heads and that doesn't get into the record, so if you will answer right out, then it will be in the record. Do you understand that?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Experienced court reporters like this gentleman do catch head nodding and head wagging, but technically they are not supposed to interpret the intent of the witness. Do you understand that, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs. MURRET - I understand.
Mr. JENNER - All right. I assume that you gathered from these documents that the Commission was created and appointed to investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, did you not?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Mr. Liebeler and myself, we are attorneys on the legal staff of the Commission. It is our task to investigate the life of Lee Harvey Oswald from the time of his birth until his demise on the 24th of November, which was on a Sunday, 1963, which gives our Commission a pretty broad area of investigation, so to speak, and one of our purposes in particular is to take the depositions of people such as you who in any way touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald or those with whom he was acquainted perhaps, either directly or collaterally. We understand from the FBI reports and otherwise, from FBI interviews with you, that you will be able to help us.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I will if I can.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, just sit back and relax. There's nothing going to happen to you. We just want to ask you what you know about Oswald, his mother, and others with whom he came in contact, to your knowledge.
Mrs. MURRET - Do you just want me to tell you what I know about his life?
Mr. JENNER - Yes; as far as you know. I will just ask you questions, and I believe it will help us if you just answer them to the best of your knowledge. I wonder if we might get the lady a glass of water.
(Glass of water given to witness.)
Mrs. Murret, let me orient you for a moment. You are the sister of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother, are you not?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER - First, what was your maiden name, Mrs. Muttet?
Mrs. MURRET - Claverie.
Mr. JENNER - How do you spell that?
Mrs. MURRET - C-L-A-V-E-R-I-E.
Mr. JENNER - And your first name is Lillian?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Were you born in New Orleans yourself?
Mrs. MURRET - New Orleans; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And you have always lived in New Orleans; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Were your brothers and sisters born here?
Mrs. MURRET - They were.
Mr. JENNER - In New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - So that you all are native-born Americans; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; native to Louisiana--Cajuns.
Mr. JENNER - Cajun and American?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Then all of the family are native-born Americans; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, not my grandparents.
Mr. JENNER - Not your grandparents?
Mrs. MURRET - No. On my father's side were from France, and my grandparents on my mother's side were from Germany.
Mr. JENNER - Now, Mrs. Murret, once in a while I may have to ask you a question which is a little personal, but please accept my word that it is in good faith and that it is pertinent to this investigation, and my first personal question is, would you tell us what your age is?
Mrs. MURRET - What my age is?
Mr. JENNER - How old are you?
Mrs. MURRET - I will be 64 in May, May 17.
Mr. JENNER - And how old is Marguerite?
Mrs. MURRET - I think she should be 57.
Mr. JENNER - Marguerite, I should say, is the sister of Mrs. Murret.
Now, I would like to have you tell me something about her, how many times she was married, to whom, in chronological order.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I will tell you all I know about her. I have known her all her life, you know. She was first married to Edward John Pic.
Mr. JENNER - Edward John Pic?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Is that P-I-C?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I think we have that as John Edward Pic. Is there an explanation for that, do you think?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I think they just reversed the name around because the child is John Edward, but I think the father's name was Edward John, because I think they always called him Eddie. Now, I don't know which way it is.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Do you happen to recall when that marriage took place?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I wouldn't remember what year, you know, or anything like that, when the marriage took place. I know about how long they were married. I think they were married about 2 years, but I'm not really too accurate as to years.
Mr. JENNER - Well, as closely as you can come to it.
Mrs. MURRET - I know what happened, but the dates I just don't recall exactly, because I had my own affairs to take care of, so I can't remember dates in her life, but anyway, she was married to Eddie for 2 years, we'll say----
Mr. JENNER - Let me interrupt you for a minute. Tell me something about that marriage. Who was he? Did the marriage take place here? Were you present? What do you know about that marriage?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know too much about the marriage. I don't think it took place here. I just don't know anything about that. It might have taken place over on the Gulf Coast. I don't know if I am right on that or not. That has been so long ago, but Marguerite did know Eddie a very long time.
Mr. JENNER - She had known him for some time before she married him?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - Had you known him for some time before she married him?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - What was his business or occupation?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, Eddie worked for Smith. I think they are stevedores.
Mr. JENNER - What did he do as a stevedore?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I don't know what type of work he did. I think it was clerical work. I think he is still with the same people.
Mr. JENNER - He is alive?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes. I think it's T. B. Smith, or something like that. I don't know what the initials stand for.
Mr. JENNER - T. as in Thomas?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And B. as in Benny?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Smith?
Mrs. MURRET - Smith, yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you think Edward John Pic is still employed by them?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he is--some kind of clerical work, as far as I know. The reason I know he is is because Mr. Murret, who works on the river, saw him out there, but it was from a distance.
Mr. JENNER - Your husband works on the riverfront, does he?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Were you married to your husband before or after Marguerite married Edward John Pic?
Mrs. MURRET - I was already married.
Mr. JENNER - You were already married then?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And your husband does have an acquaintance with Edward John Pic, does he?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, no. He just maybe occasionally will see him from a distance, but he has never spoken with him. In fact, I don't think I would know Eddie Pic if I saw him on the street. That has been so long ago. I don't think I would recognize him myself. Eddie Pic was a very peculiar type of boy, you might say a person who did not talk unless you spoke to him, and they would come over to my home for dinner or something, and he would sit there all day long and he wouldn't say anything. Now, I don't know whether all of this is important. I don't guess some of it is.
Mr. JENNER - Don't you worry about whether you think it is important or not, Mrs. Murret. We will decide that once we get all this information assembled. You just tell me what you know about all of this, anything that comes to your mind that you think might be important to the Commission in this investigation.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, at the beginning when she married Eddie, she said he wasn't fair. He told Marguerite that he was making more money than he was over there, and she had to go back to work. She worked for Mr. Sere. He was one of the lawyers in a law firm at that time, and Marguerite worked for him. It was the firm of Goldberg, Kammer and somebody else lawyers.
Mr. JENNER - Was Sere a lawyer?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; they were all lawyers. They were three lawyers together. He was secretary there at first, but then he became a lawyer too.
Mr. JENNER - How do you spell his name?
Mrs. MURRET - Mr. Sere?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - S-E-R-E.
Mr. JENNER - Is Mr. Sere still alive?
Mrs. MURRET - He is not.
Mr. JENNER - He is dead?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Just go ahead now with what you know about Marguerite's first marriage.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, the way I understood it, and this is only what she told me now, I know nothing, you know, other than that--but she said Eddie had lied to her about how much money he was making at this place, and that it was a very small salary that he made. He went out and rented a house in the City Park section, which was very high rent, and then it seems like he signed a lease and all that, and then after that Eddie must have told her in the meantime what he was making over at that place, and they couldn't possibly have stayed there and paid that rent on his salary, so she had to ask for her job back again, so they took her back again and then they paid for furniture that they got and so forth while she was working.
Mr. JENNER - How old was she then?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, let's see John must be about 31 years old now.
Mr. JENNER - You mean her son John?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. They were married, I think, about maybe 4 years before John was born. I don't know the dates or the times or anything, but you can figure that she is 57 now, and John is 31.
Mr. JENNER - Well, she would have been 26 when he was born, would that be about right?
Mrs. MURRET - Twenty-six--I don't think she was that old; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - Well, 31 from 57 is 26.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. Well, she could have been, but I didn't think she was that old. I thought maybe she might have been around 23 years old. Let's see---well, John wasn't born until 4 years after she was married, you see.
Mr. JENNER - Oh--well, that would be 26 less 4, so that would be 22 years.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I think she was 22 about then, 22 or 23, somewhere in there. I didn't think she was 26 yet.
Mr. JENNER - So we can say that she was married when she was about 22 years old; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I think that's about right.
Mr. JENNER - What was her formal education?
Mrs. MURRET - She had a high school education.
Mr. JENNER - Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; McDonogh High School. She lived with Mr. Pic, say about 2 years, and then they moved into another location.
Mr. JENNER - They first were in this apartment in the City Park area?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, that was during the time that she left Mr. Pic, previous to that.
Mr. JENNER - Let's start back. You said something about his having lied to her as to his income, did you not?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Then I believe you said he rented an apartment in the City Park area; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And she found when they went out there, or whatever occurred, that he was not able to pay the rent on the salary he was making; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And so she went back to work.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, she remained married to him and lived with him, didn't she?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - All right. They lived in the City Park area how long?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know how long they lived there. I really don't, but I was thinking of another time when she lived in the City Park area. That was when I was referring to.
Mr. JENNER - We can come to that later. Let's just keep this in sequence, if you don't mind, and we'll cover all of it.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; so then, they rented a house in another section. I have forgotten which section that was.
Mr. JENNER - Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes; and it was during that time when she became pregnant.
Mr. JENNER - Was that when they had the house?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; while they were in this regular home, you know, that they rented. It was in the lower section. I forget what section it was, probably somewhere up in the Carrollton section.
Mr. JENNER - Carrollton?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; so then during that time she became pregnant, and I remember she came over to my house and she told me that she was pregnant, and asked what she was to do, that Eddie refused to support her. She said that he refused to give her any money because of the fact that she was pregnant.
Mr. JENNER - He didn't want any children?
Mrs. MURRET - He didn't .want any children, that's right.
Mr. JENNER - This would have been when they were married approximately 3 years; would that be about right?
Mrs. MURRET - About 3 years married, yes, sir; about that.
Mr. JENNER - Were you and Marguerite generally, fairly close?
Mrs. MURRET - We were very close.
Mr. JENNER - Very close?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. When my mother died, she left six children, and we were all young. My brother was the eldest, and I came next, and Marguerite was about 3 or 4 years old at that time, I think.
Mr. JENNER - Maybe at this point we should get the names of all your brothers and sisters. Your father died when?
Mrs. MURRET - My father?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he died about 33 years ago.
Mr. JENNER - Thirty-three years ago?
Mrs. MURRET - About that; yes.
Mr. JENNER - That would be approximately 1932; is that about right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Leaving your mother and you children, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, when did your mother die?
Mrs. MURRET - My mother died about 1911.
Mr. JENNER - Oh, she preceded your father?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - So when your father died, you children were then orphans; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - At that time, when your father died, you were around 34 years of age?
Mrs. MURRET - I was married when my father died. I had three children when my father died. One child was a baby.
Mr. JENNER - Now, could I have the names of Just your family, that is yourself, your sisters, and your brothers?
Mrs. MURRET - I have two brothers.
Mr. JENNER - Two brothers?
Mrs. MURRET - And we were four sisters.
Mr. JENNER - All right, now give me the brothers' names.
Mrs. MURRET - Their names are Charles and John.
Mr. JENNER - Charles Claverie and John Claverie?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Are they alive?
Mrs. MURRET - No; they died while at a very young age. They died 5 months apart.
Mr. JENNER - Were they teenagers?
Mrs. MURRET - No. One boy was around possibly 23 years old, and the other one was about around 18 years old. The elder one contracted tuberculosis. That was during World War I. He was in the Navy.
Mr. JENNER - Was that Charles or John?
Mrs. MURRET - Charles, and then John died; he also had TB.
Mr. JENNER - And he died at age 18?
Mrs. MURRET - Around that; yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you had four sisters, you say?
Mrs. MURRET - Including myself.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; including yourself.
Mrs. MURRET - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - All right. One sister was Marguerite.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And yourself, Lillian.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Who else?
Mrs. MURRET - Aminthe.
Mr. JENNER - Is that A-M-I-N-T-H-E?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Is that pronounced Aminthe?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; Aminthe.
Mr. JENNER - That sounds French, is it?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; it's French.
Mr. JENNER - All right, what's the other sister's name?
Mrs. MURRET - Pearl. She died.
Mr. JENNER - Pearl is dead?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Where is Aminthe living at the present time?
Mrs. MURRET - Aminthe is living in Knoxville.
Mr. JENNER - Knoxville, Tenn.?
Mrs. MURRET - Tennessee, yes.
Mr. JENNER - I take it Charles was the oldest?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and I was next.
Mr. JENNER - You were next?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; John was next.
Mr. JENNER - John was next?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and then Pearl and then Marguerite, and then Aminthe.
Mr. JENNER - Now, let me get those down by number. Number one was Charles, number two, that would be you, Lillian.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - John was third.
Mrs. MURRET - John was third, that's right.
Mr. JENNER - Marguerite was fourth?
Mrs. MURRET - Fourth, and Aminthe was fifth.
Mr. JENNER - How about Pearl?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, let's see---that's wrong. Aminthe was sixth.
Mr. JENNER - And Pearl was fifth?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; Pearl was fifth. No; that's still wrong. Aminthe was sixth. Marguerite was fifth, and Pearl was fourth.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, I've got it. I will recite it now just so that we will have it straight in the record. There was Charles, Lillian, then John, then Pearl, then Marguerite, and then Aminthe; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - How old was Pearl when she died?
Mrs. MURRET - She died recently. She was about 54.
Mr. JENNER - She was in her fifties?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did she die of natural causes?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - I mean, she didn't have tuberculosis, or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - What was the occupation of your father?
Mrs. MURRET - My father was a motorman for New Orleans Public Service. He worked for them approximately around 40 years.
Mr. JENNER - When you say motorman, do you mean streetcar motorman?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. They had those handbrakes at that time, and he taken out the first mule car, I think--when they had mule cars, before they had the handbrakes on the cars.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, did any of you children have a formal education, beyond high school?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - Did you all attend and finish high school, other than John who died when he was 18?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - Well, did John finish high school?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - Did Charles?
Mrs. MURRET - No. Charles went in the Navy during the wartime. He made about, oh, I don't know how many trips through Germany, and he was on this transport when the United States seized the "Frederick Digross." and he wrote a beautiful history of his trip, and I loaned it out to someone, and I never did get it back.
Mr. JENNER - How unfortunate.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I never did get it back. It was really everything that happened on the trip coming and going from New York to Germany, you know, back and forth.. He was a gunner.
Mr. JENNER - On the transport, or a battleship or destroyer or cruiser?
Mrs. MURRET - On the transport.
Mr. JENNER - He was a gunner on a transport?
Mrs. MURRET - Transport; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Now, Marguerite is alive and you are alive and Aminthe is alive; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right. Aminthe is alive too.
Mr. JENNER - Did you complete high school?
Mrs. MURRET - I did not. I didn't even go to high school.
Mr. JENNER - You did not?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - Did you complete elementary school?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER - What about Pearl?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think she went to high school. If she did, it was probably just a year or so. She was married at an early age.
Mr. JENNER - I think you said that Marguerite did complete high school, or did she?
Mrs. MURRET - I can't remember if she completed high school or not, but she may have. I really don't remember that. If she said she did, then she did. I can't remember because, you see, we were six children, and my mother died, and my father's sisters lived here and we had some cousins who used to come over and help us, you know, and of course, I being the eldest, I was pretty busy with everything in those days. We were just trying to keep the family together more or less.
You see, my father wouldn't give any of the children up, and so forth, and so they used to come over and help us out and cook, and when I got old enough I took over, and when the others got old enough they would help out, and that went on and on. We did pretty well. We were a happy family. We were singing all the time, and I often say that we were much happier than the children are today, even though we were very poor. My father was a very good man. He didn't drink, and he was all for his family. He didn't make much salary, but we got along all right.
Mr. JENNER - The reason I am inquiring into these things is that all of this will assist the Commission in getting the background of the family and relatives of Lee Harvey Oswald. The reason I am saying that is I don't want you to think I am just being curious.
Mrs. MURRET - No; I understand.
Mr. JENNER - I am trying to find out the family background so that we can ascertain to what extent all of you were involved with Lee Harvey Oswald. You understand?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. It's nothing I'm ashamed of. I'm glad I had the life I did, because I have something to look back to, because we were very happy. We didn't have anything and we just did the best we could, but we were all together and we worked together, and we made out all right.
Mr. JENNER - I understand. Now, was Marguerite happy, or would you say she was resentful to any extent about anything, or what was her attitude and demeanor, as you recall it? Just tell me about her personality.
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't think she was resentful in any way. She was a very pretty child, a very beautiful girl, and she doesn't look today at all like she used to, you know. You wouldn't recognize her.
Mr. JENNER - I think she's nice looking.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, not like she was years ago. She was a very pretty girl, and I don't think that she was resentful of anybody.
Mr. JENNER - There seems to be some inability on her part to get along with people. That's really what I am driving at. What do you know about that?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I found that I didn't get along with her myself all the time, because our ideas were different on things, and of course she was a person who if you disagreed with her or if you expressed an opinion that she didn't agree with, then she would insist that you were wrong.
Mr. JENNER - How do you and Marguerite get along now?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, we get along very well, if one or the other don't say nothing. You see, I am forgiving, but she is not.
Mr. JENNER - Tell me more about that. Tell me about when you were gifts, and how you got along then.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, when we were girls, we got along.
Mr. JENNER - Well, did you have to give in in order to get along with her, anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET - I guess I was too busy taking care of five children to think about anything like that. I mean, I didn't realize anything like that. We did get along pretty well.
Mr. JENNER - Now, let's get to the period after your girlhood, when you had your own families. Let's start with during the time of her marriage to Edward John Pic. Did your relations remain fully cordial, or did you begin to find that there were times when you would have to yield, whether or not you were careful about what you said so as not to excite her or get in an argument with her, or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I don't think I had to be careful with what I said. Maybe if I thought she wasn't right, I would tell her she wasn't right. I never did feel I had to be afraid to tell her anything, you know, just to keep peace or something like that. If I thought she was wrong, I would just tell her why she was wrong, why I thought she was wrong, because there were things where we just didn't think alike.
Mr. JENNER - You did not?
Mrs. MURRET - No; we didn't think alike, and of course she thought I was wrong.
Mr. JENNER - She thought you were wrong?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she did, so then I would, you know, forget about it, in other words, but it didn't seem like she could forget about anything. She would just, you know, fly off.
Mr. JENNER - You would forgive her, but she wouldn't, was that it?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - This propensity on her part not to forget, was that a source of irritation, and did that evidence itself in your avoiding controversy, and others in your family avoiding controversy, with her?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, coming to later years, was there any change? Did you avoid any difference of opinion with her, or anything that you can recall of that nature?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, in later years, whatever dissensions we had or whatever it was that we would have a controversy over, she would just go off, and she wouldn't write or anything, and we wouldn't hear from her, and so forth, you know, until something turned up where she probably needed assistance or a place to stay, or she was coming to New Orleans and for us to put her up and everything. I never did hold anything in, you know what I mean, things like that.
Mr. JENNER - The remainder of your family, your other brothers and sisters, I think they remained in and about the New Orleans area; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, they did for a while.
Mr. JENNER - Well, they all remained in and about New Orleans except for your sister Aminthe; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she moved. She married and moved to Knoxville.
Mr. JENNER - But the rest of your family stayed here in the New Orleans area?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, my brother stayed. They were very young, and of course long before I was married, they died, so there wasn't really anyone left, you know, except Marguerite and I. She lived with me when I first got married, she stayed with me then.
Mr. JENNER - Marguerite lived with You during your marriage?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; my father and my husband and myself, we all stayed together.
Mr. JENNER - You and your husband and your father and your sister Marguerite stayed together?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; we lived on Esplanade and Roman.
Mr. JENNER - What is the business or occupation of your husband?
Mrs. MURRET - What is his occupation?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - He's a clerk for, well, he works for different companies, but mostly for Mr. Jackson. He works at different wharves, in other words.
Mr. JENNER - Different what?
Mrs. MURRET - At different wharves on the riverfront. You see, he doesn't belong to a union so, therefore, he doesn't stay at one wharf. He transfers to where they have work, and sometimes if one don't have work, he will work for someone else.
Mr. JENNER - Tell me what else you know about John Pic.
Mrs. MURRET - What else?
Mr. JENNER - Yes, about Edward John Pic.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, about all I know about him is what she told me. She said John wasn't supporting her because, she told me, that she was pregnant and he refused to give her any money. It was a payday, I think, when she told me that, and I spoke to John, but John didn't give me any satisfaction whatever. He didn't say a thing, why or anything, what was the reason or anything.
Mr. JENNER - Did you discuss with him his refusal to support Marguerite?
Mrs. MURRET - No; she left John.
Mr. JENNER - Did she leave him?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes. You see, she was that way, very quick. She would do things on the spur of the minute, where maybe somebody else would think it over before acting. I always think over things to give it a chance to cool off before I do something, but not Marguerite. When she left him she didn't get a divorce. She just separated. He got half of the furniture, and she got half of the furniture, I think.
Mr. JENNER - Before they were divorced?
Mrs. MURRET - Before they were divorced; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now if I may return a minute, you said she was very quick.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you elaborate on that a little?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; if I can.
Mr. JENNER - I am trying to find out as much as I can about her personality. Now, when you said she was quick, do I get an inference from that that she was hasty, or that she was impulsive, or that she would act without thinking things over?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she would do that. She was quick in making up her mind about anything that happened. She made her decisions very fast without sleeping on them, not like me. I always try to sleep over a problem if I have to make a decision, because a lot of times I will have a different outlook on the thing the next day, but not Marguerite. She would just act right now regardless of the consequences once she made up her mind. That's what I mean. In other words, when she would find something that she just didn't like, that was it. She made quick decisions.
Mr. JENNER - Was this a personality trait that she had as a young girl as well as a mature lady?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't remember anything like that before she was married, I mean, as we lived as sisters in the same home; no.
Mr. JENNER - It was after she left the home then, would you say, that she began to develop that trait, or that you began to detect this quick acting in her personality?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER - And you think she failed to think things over, that she didn't sleep on them, which was an illustration you gave a few minutes ago, but that she acted quickly when something happened or when she needed to reach a decision, is that it?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER - She failed to sleep on something before she acted; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she was too quick. I would have thought things over before I did them, but she wouldn't.
Mr. JENNER - In other words, she was impulsive? Would you call it that?
Mrs. MURRET - You can call it that if you like.
Mr. JENNER - Well, I am just trying to shape this up into what you really knew about Marguerite and about her personality behavior. I don't mean to put words in your mouth now, and any time that I show a tendency to do that, it is inadvertent, and if that does happen I want you to say that that isn't quite the way you meant it.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - I want you to put it in your own words. Do you understand?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you elaborate now a little more on this personality characteristic that we have discussed? I am interested in that.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, she went to live in Carrollton, which is in the City Park section, in Carrollton.
Mr. JENNER - Would you spell that for me, please?
Mrs. MURRET - C-a-r-r-o-l-l-t-o-n.
Mr. JENNER - Carrollton?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - You will have to forgive my midwest accent, which differs from yours.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; my southern drawl.
Mr. JENNER - Well, I wouldn't call it a southern drawl. You have a distinct Louisiana accent. It's different. The Louisiana accent is not a lazy sort of thing. It has a reasonable sharpness of enunciation which you don't find, say, in Mississippi and some parts of Louisiana. I just came from Dallas, and they pronounce words with a drawl that's as long as your arm.
I happen to be a midwesterner myself, so my accent is hard, I mean, with a sharp enunciation.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, during that time she was suing Eddie for a divorce.
Mr. JENNER - Now, was she working at that time?
Mrs. MURRET - No; she was not working then.
Mr. JENNER - How was she being supported?
Mrs. MURRET - Eddie was supporting her.
Mr. JENNER - Even though they were separated, he was supporting her?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I don't know now if he was supporting her by that time or not, but I know during the course of the divorce he had to pay Marguerite alimony, and he contributed a very fair amount, and he contributed a very good amount to John Edward, which he received until he was 18 years old.
Mr. JENNER - Well, that was pursuant to a decree of the court, I suppose.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; of course, during that time, when John was about 2 years old, she married Mr. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER - I will get to that in a minute.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have the feeling that this experience with Edward Pic embittered her?
Mrs. MURRET - I really couldn't say. I don't think so, though. She seemed to be pretty happy with Mr. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER - Before we get to Oswald now, did she complain or did she show any reaction from the divorce or anything, or was she getting along all right on what he was giving her and what he was giving John?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, she was getting along on what she was getting from him for herself and John, I think, and she would come over to our home. We lived on Dumaine Street at that time, but very near there, and I would give her all the help I could, and they would come over to dinner and things, but then I remember one time when John was sick, when he was a baby, he had this ear infection and she sent for Eddie. She said she was getting tired of staying up all night long, and for him to come over and stay a while, and he did.
Well, I think they had it out at that time. I don't know about that, but anyway, I think that was about the only time that Eddie saw John, was during the time that he had this ear trouble, when he was an infant. She wouldn't let John see Eddie. For myself, I thought that was cruel, because I don't believe in that.
Mr. JENNER - Now I am interested in that, Mrs. Murret. You say she refused to permit her former husband to see the child?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, now I don't know whether he even asked to see the child or not. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - Well, you did say without prompting from me that she wouldn't permit him to see the child, didn't you?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right, she wouldn't.
Mr. JENNER - I draw the inference from that to mean that he might have desired to see the child, but she wouldn't permit him, but you don't know that?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't know if he asked to see the child or not.
Mr. JENNER - But you do have a recollection that she would not let Eddie see the child; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right. John never saw him after that, I don't think, not after he was a child.
Mr. JENNER - But you said she was opposed to him seeing the child; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes; I imagine she was.
Mr. JENNER - Did anything else occur in this marriage up to the time of Marguerite's marriage to Oswald, anything else that you would say was usual insofar as personality is concerned?
Mrs. MURRET - No; not that I can think of.
Mr. JENNER - You have mentioned a couple of aspects already.
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't know of anything else. That would be about all I know. When she became pregnant and they separated, you know, it was just probably a day after that, whatever it was, but then she sued for a divorce and went to live in Carrollton, and the divorce was granted, and she got the child, and he supported John for 18 years. He sent him a good amount. He never failed to make one payment, and of course she got alimony for herself.
Of course, living the way we did as children, we knew how to economize and live on a small amount of money, where people who have always had a lot wouldn't know how to do that.
Mr. JENNER - Of course I gather from what you have said--as a matter of fact, you said it, but had you said otherwise I would have been surprised, that your father was rearing six children, and he was a motorman on the streetcar lines here; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you were necessarily poor people.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he made $90 a month. We paid $12 a month house rent, or $14 a month house rent---I forget which-- and every day he would give us each $1 to do the marketing with, and we would have something left out of the $1, believe it or not.
My sister Pearl, when she would have anything left, she would go to the store and buy some material and sit down and make herself a dress by hand, with what she had left from the $1, because whatever was left out of the $1 he gave us, if we had anything left, it didn't matter. We could buy anything for ourselves and so forth, that we wanted.
Mr. JENNER - You mean he gave $1 to each of you each day?
Mrs. MURRET - $1 to feed the family; yes sir. We ate beans and rice and spinach and vegetables and bananas and things like that, but we didn't have big household expenses, you see. We didn't have a gas stove. We had a furnace and things like that. There were no electric lights. In the very beginning there weren't, and all of those expenses, you see, were out.
I have no bitterness toward my life as a child. In fact, I like to talk about it, because we were always so happy. We went skating. We had skates, and when we were teenagers, we would go skating around Jackson Square and the French Quarter, and so forth, and my aunt would let us take up her rug any time we wanted to dance, and she had a piano and we would go over there and dance and play the piano, and I might say that Marguerite was able to do different things. She was very entertaining. She could sing very well, not you know, to be a professional singer, but she had a good voice, and then when we had a piano that my father bought for $5 she learned to play by ear on the piano, so we really had a lot of fun.
We cooked our beans and ate our beans, and drank our coffee and ate our bread, and the rest of the time we didn't have to do all that children have to do today.
I find children today are under a great strain. Their parents want their children to grow up long before their years. They don't let them just take things in stride any more like they used to. Now, they go to the Blue Room and places like that, and they apparently think that's the thing to do.
Mr. JENNER - What's the Blue Room?
Mrs. MURRET - That's in the Roosevelt Hotel.
Mr. JENNER - Is it a place of entertainment?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; entertainment, and of course they have to go bowling and they have to be baton twirlers, and they have to go to dances and all kinds of school events, and it's constantly going and coming all the time, and they just don't ever seem to relax like they used to.
They have children in my block who never stop. They have poor people around there, but they never seem to relax. They don't know how to relax apparently. My own children, well, I'm glad they didn't live like that either.
Mr. JENNER - All right now, when John Edward Pic was approximately 2 years old, your sister, Marguerite, married Mr. Oswald; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right. Now, there's something else that happened during that time. She told me this, and I don't know whether it's true or not, but I guess it's true because I have never found my sister to lie about anything.
Mr. JENNER - You never have?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - Have you ever found her to have hallucinations, that things didn't actually occur that she thought had occurred, or that she had a tendency to exaggerate or overstate something?
Mrs. MURRET - I would say, when you put it that way---I would say if she expected a person to do what she was thinking and a person didn't do that, well, then that was the wrong thing.
Mr. JENNER - When that happened, did she get excited about it or angry, or show any emotional trait at all?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't think so. Now, maybe she may have appeared excited. I don't know if she was excited or not. I just always felt that she was really too quick. She would fly off too quick, and if you didn't think the way she .did about anything and you tried to explain to her, you would Just be wrong. You just couldn't get along with her if something would come up like that. Of course, it could be you who was at fault, so I'm not saying that she was at fault every time or anything like that. Maybe she was right, but you just couldn't reason with her if she thought she was right, and I don't think anybody can be right all the time.
Mr. JENNER - Tell me some more about that. You said she was unable to get along with people. Now, I would like to know more about that, just as you recall it, any incident that might have happened or anything that you noticed about Marguerite in connection with any incidents like that.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I mean, if people don't do things right, maybe it's because they have been doing some wrong things which they had no control over or something, you see what I mean, but at other times things might occur where they weren't wrong, and if she didn't see eye to eye with you, then you couldn't reason with her about it. You couldn't explain things to her, I mean. If she thought differently, then you were just wrong.
Mr. JENNER - And she was sufficiently vociferous about it?
Mrs. MURRET - She 'was very independent, in other words. She was very independent. She didn't think she needed anyone at any time, I don't think, because no matter how much anyone would try to help her or how much they would try to do for her, she never thought that anyone was actually helping her. So often I have helped her out, quite a lot of times, but sooner or later it seemed like she would just take one little word or something that she would think was wrong, and we would have these little differences.
Mr. JENNER - You mean she would fly off the handle, so to speak?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she would fly off, and go and that was it, and when she would do that you wouldn't hear from her or anything, and all you could do was just let things ride until she would come to New Orleans again, or something like that, and then usually she would call or if accidentally I would meet her on the street or something, and I would go ahead and give her help again.
Mr. JENNER - It would occur that when she would fly off the handle sometimes you wouldn't see her for a while?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is that about the pattern of what happened when these incidents would arise?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER - Did you make efforts to get along with her, since you were the older sister and really head of the family?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER - Did you try to mollify her and tell her that she shouldn't act that way?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, that was all in later years. That was after her marriage and after my marriage, naturally. She might not like something my children were doing and so forth, and I told her that I always believed my children, whatever they told me. She asked me if I did that, and I said yes; I did, and that I had reason to believe them. I had faith in them, and I felt they would always do the right thing.
Mr. JENNER - She questioned that?
Mrs. MURRET - With me, yes; I mean, about the children.
Mr. JENNER - She questioned you to the extent that she thought it was unwise, or she didn't get it that you should have faith in your children?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right. She told me at one time, and I can remember this incident that happened if you want me to tell it.
Mr. JENNER - Go ahead and tell me about it.
Mrs. MURRET - The incident was just recently, I may say. My son John was just married October 5.
Mr. JENNER - Of what year?
Mrs. MURRET - ,This year, 1963--this past year.
Mr. JENNER - Your son John?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; well, she was over at the house----
Mr. JENNER - Who are you talking about now?
Mrs. MURRET - Marguerite.
Mr. JENNER - All right Marguerite was over at the house, and what happened?
Mrs. MURRET - Before he married this girl that he did-marry, there was a young lady that he would invite over to our home quite often, you see, so Marguerite was over at the house at that time.
Mr. JENNER - You are talking about your house?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; my house; and she was just visiting alone, and it was a rainy day, and John and this girl friend--we were all in the front room, so to pass the time, they were passing notes to one another, and so the next day she told me about that, and she said that they were passing notes about her, so I questioned John about it, and he laughed. He has a very good disposition, and he laughed and he said, "Well, of all things," and he said, "We were passing notes telling each other what our bad traits are." He said, "She would pass me a note telling me about a bad trait I had, and then I would pass a note back to her and tell her a bad trait that she had." They were getting a big bang out of that, but Marguerite was under the impression that they were talking about her, and so I told her, I said, "Well, I believe John," and she said, "Do you believe everything they tell you?" and I said, "Yes; I believe what they tell me." Now, this was just last fall that was.
Mr. JENNER - Was that just this last fall, in October?
Mrs. MURRET - No. Now, John was married in October, but I hadn't seen--this was quite a while previous to that--maybe 2 years.
Mr. JENNER - Oh, this incident occurred then back in 1961, would you say?
Mrs. MURRET - About the time Lee defected to Russia. Probably about that time, or after.
Mr. JENNER - Was it after 1959? That's when Oswald defected.
Mrs. MURRET - Let's see. I can't remember when that was now.
Mr. JENNER - He was mustered out in September of 1959, and he went to Russia right after that.
Mrs. MURRET - I just can't remember that.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you tell me about the Oswald marriage?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I knew Lee Oswald. He was an insurance collector on my route.
Mr. JENNER - Lee Oswald was an insurance collector?
Mrs. MURRET - For Metropolitan; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - He collected insurance premiums?
Mrs. MURRET - For the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co.
Mr. JENNER - Was that weekly or monthly, or what?
Mrs. MURRET - Weekly or monthly or yearly, sometimes semiannually, and so forth. He collected policy payments for them. He was a very good insurance man, I think.
Mr. JENNER - He was an energetic man?
Mrs. MURRET - He was.
Mr. JENNER - When you first knew him, he was married; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - No; he was already divorced from his wife when he collected in my area.
Mr. JENNER - He was already divorced from his wife?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Had he had any children of that marriage?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think he did.
Mr. JENNER - What is your recollection as to how Lee Oswald and Marguerite became acquainted?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I guess he just liked Marguerite enough to marry her, and I believe Oswald was a Catholic--I'm not too sure of that--and Marguerite was a Lutheran, so he had to leave his church, naturally.
Mr. JENNER - He had to leave the church?
Mrs. MURRET - Because he was divorced; yes. He was not recognized in the Catholic church. He couldn't receive the sacraments, in other words. He could go to mass.
Mr. JENNER - He happened to be Catholic?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Are you Catholic?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER - All right. So am I, and I just wondered if you were. Go ahead.
Mrs. MURRET - So they were married in a Lutheran Church, Lee Oswald and Marguerite. They were married at the Lutheran Church on Canal Street.
Mr. JENNER - I was going to ask you what your family was by way of religion. You are Catholic.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Have you always been Catholic?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, not always. I wasn't always a Catholic. My father was Catholic, and my mother was a Lutheran, and we were baptized in the Lutheran religion.
Mr. JENNER - You were baptized in the Lutheran religion?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and my father, who was Catholic, he always saw that we went to Sunday school.
Mr. JENNER - He would see to it that you went to the Lutheran Sunday school, to the Lutheran church?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he did. I always thought of my father as St. Joseph. I don't know why, but I guess it was because he was so close to us children. He would take us on Christmas eve night over to church, and he probably did a lot better than a lot of women do today with a family.
Mr. JENNER - Well, he was undoubtedly quite a tolerant man then.
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - Your mother had begun to rear her children as Lutherans, so he continued that?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER - He didn't attempt to induce any of you to become converted?
Mrs. MURRET - No. John Pic---rather, Eddie Pic was a Lutheran too. About the marriage to Lee Oswald, she seemed to be happy. He had everything she wanted. They lived on Taft Place in the City Park section, and then after that they built a home on Alvar Street. That was a new section then. Right now it looks awful, but at that time it was a growing section, and this was a new house, a little single house right opposite a school, and it was a very nice place.
Mr. JENNER - What's the name of the school?
Mrs. MURRET - William T. Frantz, they call it.
Mr. JENNER - How do you spell Frantz?
Mrs. MURRET - F-R-A-N-T-Z, I think it is.
Mr. JENNER - There were two children born of that marriage; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; two children, Robert, and then Lee was born after his father died.
Mr. JENNER - Well, his father died in August 1939, and Lee was born on October 18, 1939, about 2 months after; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. Lee Oswald wanted to adopt John Edward, but my sister wouldn't hear to an adoption by him, because she said he had a father, and she was receiving this allotment for him from him, and she didn't want to change his name.
Mr. JENNER - When she married Lee Oswald, I assume her alimony terminated, did it?
Mrs. MURRET - I think so, but John still received his.
Mr. JENNER - The child support continued?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes; now, what came in between there is what I started to tell you, about John Pic. That was after she married Oswald. There was a colored girl working in the grocery store, and John was in there he was about 2 or a little over 2 at the time, and this young woman was in the store----
Mr. JENNER - Let me interrupt you there a moment. When you say John, are you referring to John Pic?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that was the Pic child, and this colored woman was working in the store you see, Marguerite didn't have any children then, because she was just recently married or something, so this young woman said to John--he was just a baby, and she said, "You're a cute little boy. What's your name?" And he said, "My name is John Edward Pit," like a child will do, drawing it out so that everybody could hear it, and she asked this colored girl, "Whose child is this?" and the colored girl told her, "That's Mrs. Oswald's boy," so that's how that happened. I gather that she didn't know anything about the Pic child, and so forth, so anyway, this young woman went home and she told her mother-that a very strange thing had happened in the grocery store, and she said there was a darling lithe child in there, and she asked him his name and he said he was John Edward Pic, and she said, "By any chance, do you think he would be related to Eddie?" And she had married Eddie, and Eddie didn't tell her that he had a child, or tha t he was married or anything, and then this marriage was annulled---an aunt of mine saw the annullment in the paper, because she used to read everything in the paper, you know, and she's the one who knew about it. My sister did tell me the story about that.
Mr. JENNER - That marriage was a happy marriage, was it?
Mrs. MURRET - The Oswald marriage?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - I think so, as far as I know. I mean, I didn't get to go over there very often, but we would visit. I had a lot of children, and naturally I had to take care of them, and we never did have anything, and of course they had a car and everything, and at times they would drop by, but we didn't visit too often.
Mr. JENNER - They had a car and they had a home?
Mrs. MURRET - What's that?
Mr. JENNER - They had an automobile, you say, and they also had their own home on Alvar Street?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, they were buying the home on Alvar Street, and during that time was when Mr. Oswald was cutting the grass, I think, and he took a severe pain in his arm, and she gave him some aspirin, and in the meantime she called the doctor, and he said that was the right thing to do, to give him aspirin and to rub his arm, so then it seemed like he got worse, and while she was calling the doctor to come out, he just toppled over.
Of course, the house wasn't paid for, and it seems like they had insurance on their house that Lee never did take care of, or whatever it was, and I think if they had done that, I think they would have been safe in the house, but he neglected to do that, so they didn't have no insurance on the house, or whatever it was.
Then she lived in the house, I think, over 2 years while Lee was a baby, in this house, and then she sold it. I think she sold it, and she bought another smaller house somewhere in that area. I don't remember where, and then she sold that.
Mr. JENNER - Well, hold that for a minute. We will get to that later on. When Mr. Oswald had his heart attack and died in August of 1939, did your sister return to work?
Mrs. MURRET - Not right away.
Mr. JENNER - Not right away?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I think Lee was around 3 years old when she returned to work. I never did ask her, you know anything about the insurance, but he probably had a good amount of insurance on himself, being an insurance man himself, I imagine. I don't know about that.
Mr. JENNER - Well, was that your impression, anyhow, that she did return to work after a period of about 3 years?
Mrs. MURRET - About 3 years; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - That would have been around 1942, approximately; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - I guess so. Now, I can't recollect what happened with Lee after that, when she went to work, or where she worked. I know I took care of Lee when he was that age.
Mr. JENNER - All right, I would like for you to tell me about that.
Mrs. MURRET - When Lee was a very small child?
Mr. JENNER - Around that period when he was 3 years old, during that 3-year period, was that during the period you took care of him?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that's when I took care of him. I offered to take care of Lee for her. It seemed like he was--I don't know how that came along, but it seems like there was someone else, I think, some lady and her husband--I couldn't tell you who they were or anything like that, but they were crazy about the child. She had told me about that and so forth, but then I met her in town one day and she was telling me how they felt about the child, but I told her, I said, "Well, I'll keep Lee for a while, you know, as long as I could." I offered to keep Lee at an age when he was a very beautiful child. Now, I wouldn't say he was smarter than any other child his age. He might have been smarter than some 3-year-olds and so forth, but he was really a cute child, very friendly, and so I kept him and I would take him to town, and when I would he would have on one of these little sailor suits, and he really looked cute, and he would holler, "Hi," to everybody, and people in town would stop me and say, "What an adorable child he is," and so forth, and he was always so friendly, and, of course, I did the best I could with him. The children at home liked him. John Edward and Robert are the same age as my fourth and fifth children, so--in other words, I had five children in 7 years, making them all around the same age, from 7 to 19 months apart, so, of course, everybody was of school age, grammar school. I had to get my own five children ready for school, and I didn't have any help on that and it kept me pretty busy, and that's why I guess it was that Lee started slipping out of the house in his nightclothes and going down the block and sitting down in somebody's kitchen. He could slip out like nobody's business. You could have everything locked in the house, and he would still get out. We lived in a basement house, and we had gates up and everything, but he would still get out.
Mr. JENNER - What do you mean by a basement house?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, that's one that's raised off the ground. The house has a few steps going up to the door, and it has a basement underneath, which a lot of people make into living quarters, underneath.
Mr. JENNER - All right. He was 3 years old when he was living with you at your house, and at that time she had gone back to work; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - She had gone back to work; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - What sort of work did she do?
Mrs. MURRET - She was a saleswoman. I think she worked in quite a few of the stores in town.
Mr. JENNER - Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I assume her earnings were small?
Mrs. MURRET - What's that?
Mr. JENNER - I assume her earnings were small?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes; they don't pay too much.
Mr. JENNER - What did she do with John Edward and Robert at this time?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, at that time John Edward and Robert were placed in a home across the river some place. I wouldn't know the name of the home. I visited with her one time, and she didn't like it too much, and so she took them because they weren't keeping their clothes clean and so forth. The children didn't look the way she wanted them to, and she put them in the Bethlehem home. That's a Lutheran home.
Mr. JENNER - Is the Bethlehem home for Lutheran orphans?
Mrs. MURRET - No; it's not exactly an orphanage. It's for children who have one parent.
Mr. JENNER - I think we will take a recess now for lunch, and we can be back here at 2 o'clock. (Whereupon the proceeding was recessed.)

The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. JENNER - As I understand it now, Mrs. Murret, Marguerite maintained the house for approximately 2 or 3 years and reared the boy there and did not work, and at the end of that period of .time, she went to work, and she lodged Lee with you and your husband and your children; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And that extended over a period of how long? How long did you have him?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, I think it was pretty near the time that she married Mr. Ekdahl. I think she married him about that time.
Mr. JENNER - That was 1948; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - It might have been. Now, it might have been a little before she married Ekdahl. I really can't remember that. I really didn't know Mr. Ekdahl. I met him one time. Now, I am trying to orient myself.
Mr. JENNER - That's all right; take your time. Do you recall about when that was?
Mrs. MURRET - When she married Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. JENNER - No; that you had the care of Lee in your home.
Mrs. MURRET - That I had what?
Mr. JENNER - When Lee came to live with you temporarily; when was that?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, when he was about 3 years old.
Mr. JENNER - That would have been about 1942; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And he stayed with you until about the time that Marguerite married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Around that time, or a little before. She might have taken him a little bit before, a few months before she married Ekdahl. I don't recall exactly how that was now.
Mr. JENNER - She married Ekdahl in 1948; so at that time Lee would have been 9 years old; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that's right. Well, then I didn't have Lee that long; not from 3 years old. He wasn't with me all that time.
Mr. JENNER - How long do you think it was that you had Lee in your home on that occasion?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I might have had Lee about 2 years.
Mr. JENNER - Would that have been from 1942 to 1943, or 1944; somewhere in there?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes sir.
Mr. JENNER - He was 3 years old when he came with you; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - What's that?
Mr. JENNER - He was 3 years old?
Mrs. MURRET - About 3; yes.
Mr. JENNER - When he came with you?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - How old was he when he left?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he was about 5 or pretty near that age, when he left me.
Mr. JENNER - Well, that keys in with this information I have. When he was about 5 years old, did he join his brothers out at the Bethlehem orphanage?
Mrs. MURRET - He did. He was out there for a while.
Mr. JENNER - Did he come from your home to the orphanage?
Mrs. MURRET - I really don't know that.
Mr. JENNER - I thought there might have been some incident as to why he was placed in the orphanage with his two brothers.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, the incident could have been---I don't know if it was that or not, but maybe it was just that I couldn't take care of him any more, or something like that; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - You don't have any clear recollection on that score?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER - But you do have a sufficient recollection that he was about 5 years old?
Mrs. MURRET - About; yes.
Mr. JENNER - When he left your home?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you do remember Lee being lodged at the Bethlehem orphanage home with his two brothers, do you?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you visit the boys out there at any time?
Mrs. MURRET - I visited out there with Marguerite.
Mr. JENNER - And that was on what; a weekend?
Mrs. MURRET - I think it was. They had a party for the home out there, and the children themselves seemed to be very happy out there. It's an old place, but a very nice place, and it was run by a man and his wife. The children were included in everything, and the doors were kept open. In other words, the children were allowed to go out and play marbles on the outside, and they went to school, you know, to school in that neighborhood. I mean they weren't confined or shut in, and they seemed to have a good program of discipline. Even though they could go out and play in the immediate area, they would come in when the bell rang for supper, but I mean they were not closed in or kept locked up or anything. She also contributed to that home, I think. I don't think they would keep those boys there free.
Mr. JENNER - You're right. In the meantime she was working; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - What was that?
Mr. JENNER - She was working?
Mrs. MURRET - She was working; yes.
Mr. JENNER - In some department store or something like that here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - She at one time, but I don't know whether this was the time, ,but she worked at a hosiery shop on Canal Street. It might have been one of these Jean's--what they call Jean's Hosiery Shop over there on Canal Street. In fact, she was manager of that store at the time, as I recall, this hosiery store where she worked. I don't know what happened after she left that place. That was the time she married Ekdahl, in between there, and she left New Orleans and went to Texas.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know how long she had known Lee Oswald--that is, the father of Lee Harvey Oswald--before they were married?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, John Edward was 2 years old when she married him, so I figured she must have known him about a year or more. Myself, I knew him, because he collected at my house, but I don't know whether she knew him at that time or not.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know whether she knew him before she and her husband, Edward John Pic, separated?
Mrs. MURRET - I doubt it.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know whether she knew him during the period of the separation and before the divorce?
Mrs. MURRET - That must have been it. She must have known him during that time.
Mr. JENNER - Give me your reaction to Mr. Oswald a little more, if you will. What kind of man was he?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he was a very outward man, a man that smiled a lot, I might say. He smiled a lot, and he seemed aggressive.
Mr. JENNER - Would you say he was energetic?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes; very much. He was a good worker for Metropolitan, one of their top salesmen.
Mr. JENNER - And he was an outgoing person, you say?
Mrs. MURRET - He seemed to be.
Mr. JENNER - Would you call him an extrovert?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; of course, I don't know what happened at home. I can only tell you from what I noticed when I saw him, you know, but he seemed to be very aggressive and energetic, and they seemed to be getting along all right, so far as I could tell.
Mr. JENNER - During that period of time of her marriage to Lee Oswald, did you have much contact with your sister Marguerite?
Mrs. MURRET - No; not very much. Like I said, I had five children myself, and we didn't have a car; so we stayed at home a lot. Mr. Murret is a man who don't care to visit relatives too much, and we didn't visit them. They came over when they would be out riding around; in other words, they might stop by or something like that, but we didn't do much visiting.
Mr. JENNER - Your husband's given name is Charles F.; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; they call him "Dutz."
Mr. JENNER - That's his nickname?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is that D-u-t-z?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and they put it in the telephone book that way, because he was in the fight game years ago. He managed some fighters, and they have a lot of contact with sportswriters, and they knew him by the name of "Dutz," so that's why he went and put it in the telephone book, rather than Charles, so that they would know who he was, I guess.
Mr. JENNER - Does he still use that name?
Mrs. MURRET - He does.
Mr. JENNER - Is your telephone listed in that name?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that's what I said. It's still listed that way. His uncle gave him that nickname when he was a small child, and I always knew him by the name of "Dutz." I never call him anything else but that, but his family always called him Charles.
Mr. JENNER - What business is he in?
Mrs. MURRET - What's that?
Mr. JENNER - What is your husband's business again?
Mrs. MURRET - He works as a clerk.
Mr. JENNER - Is there anything else you can remember about Lee Oswald, the father of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't remember anything else; no. I didn't know anything about him at all other than being an insurance clerk and coming around the house to collect insurance. He sort of maybe seemed to be a little forward maybe, I thought, but, like a lot of insurance men, maybe it helps on the debits, you know.
Mr. JENNER - He was aggressive in collecting the accounts; do you mean?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - But not forward in any other respect?
Mrs. MURRET - No; not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER - I mean he was a gentleman?
Mrs. MURRET - As far as I know.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know anything about his family?
Mrs. MURRET - I know nothing about the Oswald family. I only met one brother who was the godfather of Lee---little Lee Oswald, you know--and I think his name was Harvey, maybe. I wouldn't be sure about that.
Mr. JENNER - Harvey?
Mrs. MURRET - I believe that's what it was, but that's about all I know about the Oswald family. He's the only one I knew or ever saw.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know where Harvey Oswald is now?
Mrs. MURRET - He's dead now. I just saw him one time, and that was after Lee was born. He came over to the house, and I think they were friendly with Marguerite and all, but all of a sudden there was no more friendship. I don't know why.
Mr. JENNER - Did this friendship terminate while the marriage still existed, or was it afterward?
Mrs. MURRET - I think afterward. I don't know whether there was any friendship with the Oswald family during this marriage or not. I couldn't say. She never spoke about it, but I do know, after the death of the brother, they had some dissension about something. I don't know what, but that ended that friendship with the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER - As far as you know or were advised, that was never repaired was it?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER - Your sister married Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And your recollection of that event is what?
Mrs. MURRET - What do you mean?
Mr. JENNER - What do you remember about that incident?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I don't know anything about the marriage at all, other than what you have told me about it. I only met Mr. Ekdahl one time, and they were about to. be married about that time it seems like, and they say that Mr. Ekdahl was a sick man and had a bad heart, and he was a little older than she was, and she didn't seem very enthusiastic about marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and that's when his sister came down here and she liked Marguerite a lot, and she said, "Why don't you go ahead and marry him? He is lonesome," and so forth, so she just decided, I guess, to marry Ed.
Mr. JENNER - His name was Edward Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; his name was Edward Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER - And it is your best recollection that you met him once before the marriage?
Mrs. MURRET - That's all I saw him; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Had your sister talked to you about him prior to the marriage?
Mrs. MURRET - She spoke to me about him, I think. He was a high salaried man, that I know, and he did research work for Texas Electric, I think, and of course I don't think things worked out maybe too well for them, I mean, about his way of giving her money and so forth.
I guess she thought things would be different after their marriage. You see, he was sort of tight, I think, with his money. She would go to the grocery store, but he would hold the money, and of course she didn't like that part of it, I guess you know, so then she went around with Mr. Ekdahl in his travels for the company and she also took Lee with her wherever she had to go. And then Lee became of school age, and she had these other two boys in the Chamberlin-Hunt College in Mississippi.
Mr. JENNER - Is that a military school?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and it's a high-priced military school, with beautiful uniforms and so forth, and she used her own money for these boys to go to military school. Mr. Ekdahl didn't take on that responsibility. He didn't take on any obligation like that at all, as far as I know. She said he didn't even take Lee as an obligation.
Now, whether this was all her idea or not, I don't know, because she is very independent about things. I don't know, but that's the way I understood it was, so then anyway, Lee traveled with her all over until he became of school age.
During the summertime she rented a place at Covington so that she could have her other two boys with her on vacation.
Mr. JENNER - Where is Covington?
Mrs. MURRET - Covington is right out of New Orleans, not too far away, over the causeway. People more or less use it as a summer resort, and they rent homes there, just like at Biloxi and Gulfport, and so forth.
Mr. JENNER - Oh, it's off in that direction?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; so she rented a place over there, and she stayed there with the boys in the summer.
Mr. JENNER - Now, this was when she was married to Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; she was married to Ekdahl then.
Mr. JENNER - Did they visit you once in a while?
Mrs. MURRET - With Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - No; never. She was living in Texas at that time, but this was during the summer that she stayed at Covington.
Mr. JENNER - Where was Mr. Ekdahl during the summer when she was at Covington?
Mrs. MURRET - Mr. Ekdahl was traveling for the company, but she couldn't travel with him because she had the boys during vacation time, and then Lee became of school age and he had to go to school. Now, at that time houses were hard to get, and even hotel rooms, I mean, when you were traveling and so forth, so she agreed to stay over in Covington and send Lee to school in Covington rather than go back to Texas. Now, whether she stayed with Lee when he went to school or not, I don't know.
The next I heard, well, she was back in Texas. Now, I don't know about that, how that came about, but she had this duplex. Now, if she had bought this duplex or not at one time herself, I don't know, but she had spoke something about buying a duplex.
Mr. JENNER - Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - No; in Texas, Fort Worth. So it seems like this is what she told me; that's how I knew so much of her family life, from what she told me. So then, she told me that when they left Covington, they went back to Texas to this duplex, and now, she lived either in the upper or lower part of this duplex, but anyway, one morning she was outside in the yard and this lady who lived either in the upper or lower, whichever way it was, came out into the yard and my sister introduced herself as Mrs. Ekdahl, and this lady answered instead, "You are not the Mrs. Ekdahl that I know."
Well, you can put two and two together there. Now, I am only repeating what she told me, so then she got sort of scouting around, you know what I mean, and she found out different things around there, and she accused him of having someone in this house while she was over in Covington. So then she got after him and he denied everything about that, so then she said, "Well," and she just kept eyeing up the situation, you know, and one time she found something in his pockets. He had a train ticket to go on one of his trips, and she called the place and found out that he had gotten two tickets, so she told him that she would drive him to the train station, and he insisted that she not drive him, that he could go alone, but she said, well, no, she wanted to take him, and he said, no, that that would be too much trouble and silly. Well, anyway, I think she did drive him there, and when they got to the train station, I think she thought that whoever it was holding the other ticket had already picked it up, this other ticket, and was already on the train, so Mr. Ekdahl picked up his ticket and went on, and I guess she always thought he wasn't true to her after that, you see, so she said one night she followed Mr. Ekdahl----
Mr. JENNER - Who?
Mrs. MURRET - She did in her car, or somebody's car, and John, and I don't know if it was one of John's friends or Robert's, but anyway they followed Mr. Ekdahl, and they saw him go into this house, and she waited a few minutes on the outside, and then she had one of the boys run up the steps, and he hollered, "Western Union," and when he hollered, "Western Union," this woman opened the door, and when she opened the door, pushed the door back, Mr. Ekdahl was sitting in the living room. When he left her, he was fully dressed, but his coat and tie and shirt was off, and he had his athletic shirt on. He had his coat and top shirt off and so forth, and he was sitting in there, so she questioned him about that, and he said he was there on business, which was absurd, because you know you don't disrobe yourself on business, so that's what started off the Ekdahl case, and then of course she wanted to get a divorce from him right away, you see, and that's why I say she's quick, you see, because I would not have gotten a divorce . I would have got a separation, because he was making a big salary, and so forth, but anyway, she wanted a divorce it seemed like, but it seemed like he had connections and he must have gone to get the divorce before she could get it, or whatever it was. She had gone to her pastor and told her pastor about it, and her pastor told her that if she would press this case against Ekdahl, that he would have a heart attack and that would make her a murderer, that she would be the cause of him dying, so he was in the hospital, I think, so she went to the hospital to see him, and I think they had a roarup there at the hospital. I don't know what that was all about because, you see, I don't know anything about all of that except what she told me. So then she got a divorce from Mr. Ekdahl, and she settled for not too very much and it wasn't very long before Mr. Ekdahl died, so that was the end of the Ekdahl affair.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, let me take you back to the beginning now for a few moments, if you will. We had Lee over at the Bethlehem orphanage after he left the house; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - He was there when he was five years old, and he stayed there until she married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he was in the home awhile first. I mean, he was at my house, I would say, between 1 1/2 and 2 years, and then I couldn't keep him any more. I guess there must have been some dissension or something.
Mr. JENNER - What kind of dissension?
Mrs. MURRET - She got angry or something, and I might have told her to take her child, you know, or whatever it was, so she put him in with the other two boys in the home then.
Mr. JENNER - She was quick tempered, would you say?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, that's what I mean; yes.
Mr. JENNER - She would flare up in a moment; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; you see, she was always right. She couldn't take anything from anybody, in other words, or you might say she was not reasonable, and especially in some things that are right, because you can keep doing and doing and doing, but then you get to the point where the other party never seems to be doing anything.
Mr. JENNER - She didn't seem to exhibit a full measure of appreciation that was warranted, is that what you mean?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I didn't keep the child for anything like that. I kept him for himself and for the love of God, and so forth, and we liked the child, but of course we had our own obligation with our own children, and this was her life. She made her own life.
Of course, I do say that maybe she made it, and then she didn't make it, because you see, it's just the way things happened. Now, whether she was the cause of these things happening or not, I don't know, but she seemed to be a victim of all these circumstances.
Mr. JENNER - But they kept repeating themselves, a number of them; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; they kept coming along; that's right.
Mr. JENNER - Now, she then married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you had met him only once, I believe you said?
Mrs. MURRET - Once; that's right.
Mr. JENNER - Were you at the wedding?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, no; I didn't go to the wedding. They were married in Texas.
Mr. JENNER - Were you advised that she was about to marry him?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think I knew that she was about to marry him; no, sir. I just received a picture of her and Ekdahl on their wedding trip, and she had written on it, "Happily married," and she sent a picture of the house that they lived in. It was a very nice place, and they seemed to be doing O.K., you know.
Mr. JENNER - Were they married here in New Orleans, or were they married in Texas?
Mrs. MURRET - I imagine they were married in Texas. Mr. Ekdahl was a divorced man. I guess he was a divorced man. He had to he. I don't know, but I don't think he could get married without being divorced. He had a son.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; I know he did, and his people were Boston people, were they not?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. I know she met his sister. It was her, his sister, that sort of persuaded her that she ought to go ahead and marry him. She went up to see them, I think.
Mr. JENNER - In Boston?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - You think his sister influenced her a lot?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER - But she was somewhat disappointed in Mr. Ekdahl insofar as his handling of the family funds was concerned; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I imagine she was.
Mr. JENNER - Well, I don't want you to imagine. What impression did you get from what she said to you?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, she just said that she thought things would be different, that since he was a high-salaried man, she didn't think she would have the kind of life she was living, like pinching pennies, and having to ask him for everything that she wanted. I think she was under the impression that he would give her so much, or I don't know anything about the amounts, you know, but that's what I gathered from what she told me.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, I think you said that he did not assume responsibility for any of the three children; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's what she said.
Mr. JENNER - And she told you when she placed her two boys, John and Robert, in the military school, what was the name of that?
Mrs. MURRET - Chamberlin-Hunt Academy.
Mr. JENNER - That she was assuming the responsibility of paying their way?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she did. She always had a lot of character. That I can say about her, you know, for a woman alone. She would have never done anything she wasn't supposed to do, even though she was in dire circumstances, and so forth, but one thing would come on like that, and she would just act up very quickly, like I told you, if she didn't like something happening or something you did or said, something like that. Of course, there are always two sides to every story, and I don't know the other side. I only know one side.
Mr. JENNER - Would you say that Lee lived with you from about 1939 to 1941?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I guess it was along in there. It's hard to remember those dates exactly, that's been so long ago.
Mr. JENNER - Did he live at any time at 1010 Bartholomew Street in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; they did. That's the house I was trying to recollect that she bought, I think, after she left this Alvar Street residence. She bought this house on Bartholomew.
Mr. JENNER - And she lived there about a year; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know how long she lived there.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall her living at 2136 Broadway in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - What street?
Mr. JENNER - Broadway.
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER - 2136 Broadway?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - That was just a month, about the middle of August to about the 10th of September 1942.
Mrs. MURRET - I know nothing of that.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall their residing at 227 Atlantic Avenue in Algiers?
Mrs. MURRET - No, I don't. That's possibly where the boys were over there. Is that an orphanage, or whatever it was?
Mr. JENNER - I don't know. Is there an orphanage over at Algiers?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - That's not the Bethlehem place, is it?
Mrs. MURRET - No, I don't know what orphanage that was, but they were over there in Algiers, and then they were transferred from Algiers to Bethlehem down here in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER - Where is Bethlehem located, this Bethlehem institution?
Mrs. MURRET - It's way down off of St. Claude Street somewhere, way down on the other end of town. I don't think it's there any more. It could be. It was a very old place.
Mr. JENNER - I have said that she married Mr. Ekdahl in 1948. I am afraid I am wrong about that. I think that was 1945 that she married him, which squares more with your recollection.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, I think so, because that's what I thought. Lee was around 5, and you had him down as 8, and I couldn't recollect having him at 8 years old.
Mr. JENNER - You were right in your recollection. Now, what town in Texas was it that they moved to?
Mrs. MURRET - I think it was Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER - They moved to Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, I think so.
Mr. JENNER - Was that address 4801 Victor? Does that refresh your recollection on that?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, she lived a couple of places, you know. Do you mean after she married Mr. Ekdahl and moves to Texas, to Fort Worth?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know the address at that time. I just don't recollect that address, because she lived in some other places too. I really don't know.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall whether she ever lived in Dallas?
Mrs. MURRET - I never knew she lived in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER - Is the town of Benbrook, Tex., familiar to you?
Mrs. MURRET - No; you see, I hadn't heard. from her. You see, she went from New York to Texas. That was about 2 years later, I think. I just don't know that I remember her saying that she bought some property some place in Texas, and she couldn't keep it up, and she probably mortgaged it to this man on a rental basis, or something like that, and they had some trouble with that; I don't know. Don't you get tired listening to this merry-go-round?
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Murret, lawyers don't get tired.
Mrs. MURRET - It would be too bad if you did.
Mr. JENNER - We are under the impression that they moved to Dallas, Tex., first and lived on Victor Street, 4801 Victor Street, in 1945 up until 1946, and then they moved to Fort Worth.
Mrs. MURRET - Oh.
Mr. JENNER - I am not attempting to give you information, now; I am just asking if you recall that, or if you ever knew that?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, that could be; yes, sir; but I thought they had gone to Fort Worth myself. That's what I thought.
Mr. JENNER - You didn't hear much from her during that time, did you?
Mrs. MURRET - No; during those years I didn't hear much from her. Maybe she would send a card or a picture or something like that, but we didn't correspond.
Mr. JENNER - You say she sent you a picture of the house where she was living with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and she sent me a picture of herself and the boys around Christmas time, and that's about all.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have any pictures of the family, album pictures or snapshots of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. MURRET - Of Lee Harvey?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER - Or Mr. Ekdahl.
Mrs. MURRET - I have her picture with Mr. Ekdahl when they were married.
Mr. JENNER - I wonder if you would give that to your husband and let him bring that in the morning when he comes in?
Mrs. MURRET - The snapshot?
Mr. JENNER - Yes; and will you look hard and see if you have any other pictures with your children taken when they were small with Lee, and that sort of thing?
(The snapshot of Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl was produced by Mrs. Murret and was marked and admitted in evidence on her affidavit as Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1.)
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't have any of my children with Lee when he was living with us. I have Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl. She sent that picture, where she wrote on it, "Happily married." Like I say, I can't recollect her living in Dallas, in that home in Dallas. I always thought it was Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER - It appears now that at least during or sometime in 1946, she lived in Covington, La., at 600 West 24th Street, and at 311 Vermont Street in Covington. Now, your recollection of that is that this was in the summer of 1946; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And she brought her three boys together with her there; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - At this time, her husband Ekdahl had not joined her, had he?
Mrs. MURRET - Not that I know of. I assume he was out on his business, you know, while they were spending the summer over there. He came in periodically every 2 weeks, or every week, or whatever it was; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression that he was a research man for what company?
Mrs. MURRET - A sick man?
Mr. JENNER - No; a research man.
Mrs. MURRET - He did research for Texas Electric, and she told me his salary was over $1,000 a month.
Mr. JENNER - Which is a substantial amount of money; right?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, I imagine so, but sometimes you can get along on $250 better than $1,000.
Mr. JENNER - That's right. Now, let me delve into that a little bit. If it was $1,000 a month, she at that time regarded it as a very substantial income; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you people as well would regard that as a substantial income; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - We people?
Mr. JENNER - Yes, the Murret family.
Mrs. MURRET - My family?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; we would think we were millionaires if we had that much money, but still I think we always did a lot with our money. Our main reason was for our family. That's why my husband wanted to educate his children. That was his main reason, because he knew how tough it is in the outside world, so he wanted them at least to have that much. Of course, these are children who liked to go to school and who liked to study. You take this girl out there, she is studying all the time.
Mr. JENNER - You mean your daughter who is outside waiting for you now?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; she is still studying, and Gene he is still studying. Like I said before, we all worked together to see that everybody got his chance. John was a top athlete in school, and then he went to St. Louis U.
Mr. JENNER - St. Louis?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he was one of the few boys that ever got a scholarship to St. Louis U. for basketball, but he only went there for about a year, and they wanted him to play at Loyola, and they kept after him when he came here on a visit, so he left St. Louis and went to Loyola.
Mr. JENNER - Loyola of Chicago?
Mrs. MURRET - No; Loyola of New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER - I see.
Mrs. MURRET - St. Louis University, the coach there wouldn't let him play baseball, and baseball was his love. He was a very good basketball player too, but he loved to play ball. He even played with the St. Louis Cardinals on a farm team, but he saw he would never really get anywhere as an outfielder, so he quit.
Mr. JENNER - But he was good enough to play on one of the St. Louis Cardinals farm teams; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. He was a good athlete. He was good at ball, baseball and basketball, and in fact, he went to Murray, Ky. He was one of the boys selected from the South. They had a North and South game, and he was selected from the southern section. It was an all-star game of some kind. He just won a trip to Rome with the Swift Co.
Mr. JENNER - He works for the Swift Co. now?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. He and his wife are leaving this Saturday.
Mr. JENNER - How nice.
Mrs. MURRET - He earned it. I mean, he didn't win it; he earned it.
Mr. JENNER - Now, you say that while Marguerite was in Covington with the three boys in the summer of 1946, that Mr. Ekdahl continued in his travels in connection with his business?
Mrs. MURRET - I assume he did; that's what he said. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - At least he wasn't there with her and the boys?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - That was your information, that she had her boys at Covington in the summer of 1946, during vacation, but that her husband Mr. Ekdahl was not in Covington that summer; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think he was. I can't say whether he was or not, because I don't know, but she said he wasn't. I assume he was on one of these trips he made in his business, and that's why she was over there with the boys, but I don't know any of that myself. I don't think I even knew she was in Covington until I met her 1 day in town.
Mr. JENNER - Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And was that during that summer vacation period?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And she told you then that they were in Covington?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Had she not tried to reach you in the meantime?
Mrs. MURRET - No; she had not.
Mr. JENNER - Is Covington very far away?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - How far away is it?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, about 100-some-odd miles. It isn't very far away.
Mr. JENNER - Did she say anything to you at that time as to how she was getting along with her husband?
Mrs. MURRET - Nothing. She just mentioned the boys being on vacation over there, and Lee becoming of school age, and she thought she would just stay there while he went to school.
Mr. JENNER - You mean the fall term, when she would put him in school in Covington, La.?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And did she do that?
Mrs. MURRET - I couldn't say whether he went to school there or not. The next I heard is when she left Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER - When she left Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Then to summarize her life with Ekdahl, she married him and she took the boys out, the two older boys, out of the orphanage and put them in military school in Mississippi; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - At her own expense?
Mrs. MURRET - So she said.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; so she said. That's what she told you?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - She kept Lee with her; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Was he at that time around 5 years old?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Or maybe a little older?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And she had accompanied her husband at least for a time in his travels; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And she had the boy Lee with her and Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - It is your impression that Ekdahl did not support Lee, but that she had to support him; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - I thought, at least she told me, that he did not support Lee either. I thought she told me that. I may be wrong on that.
Mr. JENNER - Was Ekdahl a man of formal education beyond grammar school?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know anything about Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER - You don't know?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - But it was your impression that he was previously married and had a son; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - She met him here in New Orleans; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - You don't know under what circumstances, though, do you?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER - She spoke to you nothing about the fact that he had a bad heart?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, she told me that. She said he had a bad heart; a very bad heart, I believe she said.
Mr. JENNER - And the man's sister had come down from Boston, and she approved of Marguerite, and she urged Mr. Ekdahl to marry her; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And they did marry?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - No children were born of that marriage?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't think she was married to him very long.
Mr. JENNER - They were divorced in 1948, I believe; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I don't know about the date on that.
Mr. JENNER - But they weren't married very long, and that marriage was not, as far as you know, an entirely smooth one, was it?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I only know what she told me. She told me what went on.
Mr. JENNER - And you have already told us about that.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that was the reason for the divorce.
Mr. JENNER - Had she sold her house that she had here in New Orleans at the time she married Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I think she did. She sold the Alvar Street home and moved into the Bartholomew Street home, which was a small house. It was a very low-priced residence.
Mr. JENNER - At 1010 Bartholomew?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER - And then she sold that at a profit; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, that's what she said, and that was something else about her; she started sort of getting into the business of buying property and selling it and making money off of it and so forth, but things don't just work out the way you want them to sometimes, the way you would like them to work out.
Mr. JENNER - Did she also undertake to sell insurance at one time?
Mrs. MURRET - She said she did. The last time she was here, she said she was selling insurance, but whether or not she did I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - You mean last fall; when she was here last fall?
Mrs. MURRET - I guess it was in the fall that she was here; yes.
Mr. JENNER - That was before the assassination?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - She said then that she was selling insurance?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. That was after we hadn't heard from them for a very long time. I didn't even know that Lee was in the service, and so forth, and then one day he called me up from the bus station here, but during that time we hadn't heard from them until he called me from the bus station here and said he was in town and wanted a place to stay. Now, my daughter's husband was going over to Texas to a coaching school, I think to coach at Beaumont High, so we asked him if he would call them when he got over there and maybe visit and find out how they were getting along, and he did telephone, but he wasn't able to go out to the house, but they told him that there had been an accident; that she had been working in a candy shop and a glass jar fell on her nose, and that she had sustained other injuries. So he told us about that, and I wrote to her, and I sent her money, and I made up a box of clothing of whatever I thought she might need and so forth, a lot of things, and sent them to her, and every week I would send what I could, $5, $10, or whatever it was.
Mr. JENNER - When was that, Mrs. Murret? Was that in 1962 or 1963?
Mrs. MURRET - That was while he was in the Marines, still in the Marines, because she said at that time she was trying to get Lee out of the Marines, but his time was nearly up, and she was pleading a hardship case, to get Lee out so he could give her some support. Now, that was over the telephone, I think.
Mr. JENNER - That was a telephone conversation you had with her?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Was this then in this spring; the late spring of 1959?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER - Because he got out of the service in September of 1959.
Mrs. MURRET - That's right, because after he defected here, she visited here. Now, when I talked to her over the telephone, and she told me what it was costing her financially and everything, that's when they let him out of the service, right after that, I think.
Mr. JENNER - Yes; in September of 1959.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir, and so then Lee came home, and she was living in this one room; so Lee stayed there 1 or 2 days, whatever it was, and then he said, "Well, this is not for me."
Mr. JENNER - Who said that?
Mrs. MURRET - Lee said that. Lee had money that he had saved. He had saved over $1,000 or $1,400---I don't know the amount--but after he got home and stayed there I day, he said, "Well, this is not for me; I'm leaving."
Mr. JENNER - Lee said that?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; so he left. She thought he was coming to New Orleans; so she called me and she said that he had left by bus, and that she thought he was coming to New Orleans, and that he had worked as a runner when he was here for a while for Tujague's, and she thought he might be coming here for that reason, and that he may stop at my house, but not to tell him that she had called me, but Lee never did stop at the house. If he did, I didn't know it.
Mr. JENNER - Did he call you?
Mrs. MURRET - No; he didn't call. I never heard from him, and I was waiting, and I have always felt that if he had only stopped at the house, you know, this might not have happened.
Mr. JENNER - What do you think would have happened if he had stopped by or called?
Mrs. MURRET - I think we might have been able to help him get a job, or maybe we couldn't have done anything; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - Well, you would have tried, anyhow.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; anyway, we didn't see Lee, and I had to go out that afternoon and I was under the impression, I thought maybe he did come, you know, pass by, and I asked some children in the block if they had seen somebody in the house and they said yes, that they saw someone with a small suitcase, but afterward I thought it was the Fuller brush man. I thought that afterward.
So then I didn't know anything any more about Lee.
Mr. JENNER - Could we stop there a minute and go back over this? After the divorce from Ekdahl, did she continue to live in Texas?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, and that's another thing. We felt that if she could have gotten along with Ekdahl, that they would have all been together. Lee would have had someone to look up to as a father, and so forth, and things might have been different, but you can't go by what could have happened. I guess sometimes you make your own troubles.
Mr. JENNER - In any event, after Ekdahl left and they were divorced, then she remained in touch with you, but she didn't return here?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - And then, at that time, she would have had her son, Lee, and her son, John, and her son, Robert, with her; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - All living in in their home in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - What, if anything, did Marguerite tell you about the way she brought Lee up; I mean with regard to whether he was to stay in the house after school, and things like that?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she told me that she had trained Lee to stay in the house; to stay close to home when she wasn't there; and even to run home from school and remain in the house or near the house. She said she thought it would be safer to have him just do a few chores in the house, like taking the garbage cans out and things like that, than to have him outside playing when she wasn't there. She figured he wouldn't get in any trouble in the house. Maybe she thought she was making it safer for him by doing that, rather than being out with other children, but I don't know. I guess that's what happened. He just got in the habit of staying alone like that. That's probably the time that he got like that; he was with himself so much.
Mr. JENNER - I take it, however, you heard from your sister from time to time?
Mrs. MURRET - What's that?
Mr. JENNER - You heard from your sister from time to time during all of this period, didn't you?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, every now and then, but after she had left Ekdahl, I didn't hear from her too much. I don't know what went on. I think Robert worked at some supermarket, and so forth. He had to support the family, or whatever it was, and then I believe he graduated from high school, Robert did, and then I think he was in love with some little Italian girl who was a crippled girl, and she told me that the family liked Robert a lot and they were trying to get the two together to get married, but she wanted to break that up because the girl was crippled, but Robert said he loved the girl, but she was thinking that he was young and he just thought he loved the girl, and maybe if he did marry her he would find out that he didn't like her because of her being handicapped, and all that happened in there. I don't know all the details, but, anyway, Robert went in the Marines, and that ended that. He went in the Marines on his 17th birthday, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER - The same as Lee Harvey?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; that must have been right after graduation. Robert was sort of a nice-looking boy, I think, but, anyway, she told me that these Italian people were trying to make a marriage between Robert and this handicapped girl. That's what she said. I don't know anything about that, really; so then Robert went in the marines, and she got a job in New York. They went to New York about that time, and she got a job with the same people that she had been working for here.
Mr. JENNER - Hosiery?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; it was the same people, but Lee didn't want to go to school over there; so he was a sort of a problem by not going to school, and one day when she was at work they came to the apartment and they got him and they took him off and put him in this place, and she had to get a lawyer, and the lawyer got him out of the place, and he told her that she had better get out of New York as fast as she could with this boy, and that's all I know about that story. And then it must have been on the way back--I didn't even know she had went to New York, but anyway, on the way back she must have come looking for a place to stay here in New Orleans, and she came to my house and we put her up for I don't know how long. It was during that time that Robert was getting out of the marines, because Robert met her at my house after she had been staying there a couple of weeks or a month, or whatever it was, and they all went back to Texas, and I didn't hear from them for a while.
Mr. JENNER - Let me interrupt you here a minute, Mrs. Murret. I will get back to that again in a moment. According to your story, when Ekdahl died, they remained in Texas until they went to New York; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I imagine that was after she separated and after Robert graduated from high school. I assume that was the time she went to New York. I don't know if I'm right on that or not.
Mr. JENNER - Does the late summer of 1952 refresh your recollection as to when she went to New York?
Mrs. MURRET - 1952?
Mr. JENNER - Yes; 1952, when she went to New York.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, she was living here--let's see----
Mr. JENNER - Well, she was living in Fort Worth before going to New York, I believe. Do you think that would have been in the summer of 1952?
Mrs. MURRET - I can't recollect that. Maybe if you give me a lead, I might remember.
Mr. JENNER - Is the name of Ewing Street in Fort Worth, Tex. familiar to you?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't know that one.
Mr. JENNER - Does Eighth Avenue refresh your recollection any as to an address where they lived in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET - I never heard from her at that address, unless that was the house that she bought, and she was having trouble with the party that bought it.
Mr. JENNER - You mean she was having trouble with the purchaser?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he was supposed to pay rent to her. You see, she always wanted to do everything herself, and he wasn't paying her the rent, and I don't think they was paying the other, and they lost out on the deal.
Mr. JENNER - She reported that to you?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she told me about that. Now, I don't know if that's the same place, the same house or not, but that was one house that she spoke about.
Mr. JENNER - Is the name Mrs. Beverly Richardson familiar to you?
Mrs. MURRET - I never heard of her.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Llewellyn Merritt?
Mrs. MURRET - I never heard of her
Mr. JENNER - Patricia Aarons?
Mrs. MURRET - I never heard of her.
Mr. JENNER - Herman Conway?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - Thomas W. Turner?
Mrs. MURRET - I never heard of him.
Mr. JENNER - While Mr. Ekdahl was living with her, of course, he was supporting the family, but after he left, then that was left up to her; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - What?
Mr. JENNER - She had to support the family when Mr. Ekdahl left; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - She got some assistance from her sons, did she?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I think Robert was working at a supermarket, and she had to make him give her his salary, and I don't know whether John was in the Coast Guard at the time or not. I don't think he contributed anything--John, but I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - Was it your impression that about that time she was becoming increasingly despondent with life?
Mrs. MURRET - I wouldn't say that. She seemed to be a person, or rather, she was a person who adjusted very easily to situations.
Mr. JENNER - She adjusted easily?
Mrs. MURRET - She knew she had to do something about these things; that she had to get out and work, and so forth, to buy these boys things that they needed and to keep them going. Of course, I guess it was hard, naturally. It's hard for any woman, you know, to try to support three boys, and I don't think they ever appreciate what you do for them.
Mr. JENNER - What makes you say that?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, she told me that the boys weren't helping out, I mean, John. Now, I don't know if John was married right about then or not, but I don't think he was helping out at home at all. If it had been my son, I know he would have stayed with me. He wouldn't have run out. Of course, maybe John had a family and maybe he couldn't help, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - Did she talk to you about that, or seem despondent because her children didn't help her?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she told me about it. Now, after Robert got married, she stayed with Robert for a while, but I think there was a little friction between her and his wife, or something. I don't know about that, except what she told me. Of course, there are always two sides to every story. I don't know. You can only repeat what one party tells you. In a way, I don't think those children showed the proper respect for their mother, and I don't think that's right regardless of the hard time she was having raising them, because I guess she was a little demanding on them at times, and I think children should have the proper respect for their parents. I know no matter what my children did, I would still love them. Mr. Murret is a good family man too, and there's nothing he wouldn't do for his children, and I have heard him tell them that no matter what happens don't you ever talk about anybody's mother, and things like that.
Mr. JENNER - Was it during this period before she moved to New York that she told you she had, as you put it, trained Lee to stay in the house?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I don't know exactly when you would say that was, but I think that's one reason why I know that Lee was so quiet; he was so much by himself, without playing with other children. She did tell me that she told Robert to come right home from school and things like that, because she thought it would be safer than being outside playing, but I don't know exactly when it was she was telling me that. I think that was while they were living over in Fort Worth, but anyway, she was having a hard time of it over there, and she either wrote me or called me--I don't remember which, but anyway, I told her that I would help her out, to send Lee down here for a while, and she sent Lee by train over here, and the train was about 2 hours late.
Mr. JENNER - Where did he come from at that time, from Texas?
Mrs. MURRET - From Texas; yes, sir, and I asked him, I said, "Lee did you meet anyone on the train? Did you talk to anybody?" And he said, "No, I didn't talk to anybody. My mother told me not to talk to anybody." Of course, that's a good thing sometimes, not to talk to strangers, but I guess that was one of the reasons he was so much by himself. Anyway, he stayed with us for a while.
Mr. JENNER - For how long?
Mrs. MURRET - About 2 weeks, 3 weeks, maybe more, until she got on her feet, and we took Lee out to ball games and bought him things, and we tried to make him happy, but it seemed like he just didn't want to get out of the house. I mean, he wouldn't go out and play. He would just rather stay in the house and read or something.
Mr. JENNER - He wouldn't want to go out and play with the other children?
Mrs. MURRET - No, he wouldn't. We didn't have a television. Even though I had a husband, my sister always seemed to have more than I had. She was working, and somehow she had an automobile and a television and things that I didn't have. It was years after television had come out before we had one. We did have a radio, and Lee would take it in the back room and listen to the radio and read. He would read funnybooks and I would try to get him to go outside and play with the other children, but he wouldn't go out, so finally I just made him get out, so he did for a day or so, but then he came right back in and would go right back to reading and listening to the radio, and I practically pushed him out again, because I didn't think it was healthy for him to stay in the house all the time, just to stay in that room by himself, but finally I decided that that was what he wanted, that that was his way of life, what he wanted to do, and there wasn't much I could do about it.
We took him out after that, but he didn't seem to enjoy himself, so finally I told her to come and get him, that we didn't like for him to be there any more, because we had tried to do all we could for him. Now, maybe she thought we didn't like him, but that wasn't it. It was just that he wouldn't go out and play, and he wanted to be alone in that room all the time, and he wouldn't even talk to the other children, and he was obviously very unhappy, but anyway she came down and got him. In fact, he told her to come and get him.
Mr. JENNER - How do you know that?
Mrs. MURRET - Because I saw the letter.
Mr. JENNER - He wrote a letter to her asking her to come and get him?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I wasn't supposed to see the letter, but I did.
Mr. JENNER - You saw the letter before it was mailed?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And he expressed in that letter some discomfort in being at your home, did he?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And he was under the impression that you didn't like him?
Mrs. MURRET - I guess so, because he wrote and told her that nobody around there liked him, and here everyone was knocking themselves out for him.
Mr. JENNER - Where was your sister living at that time, in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET - I think so; yes.
Mr. JENNER - On the occasion that she came from New York and stopped off in New Orleans, did she stay with you for a few days?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, she stayed with me until she found an apartment.
Mr. JENNER - That was in your home at 757 French Street?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; and that address was changed to 809 French Street.
Mr. JENNER - How was that?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, it was the same house, but they changed the numbering of that block, but it was the same residence. They changed it to the 700 block.
Mr. JENNER - And how long did she stay with you on that occasion?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, that must have been 2 weeks, 3 weeks. She was looking for a place to stay, and Robert was coming out of the service, and so that's when she found this place over on Exchange Alley before Robert came in, and she met Robert at my house, and they went right over to the apartment at Exchange Alley that she had found, but Robert left. He wouldn't stay in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER - How many days were you looking for an apartment for her?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, I would say about a week.
Mr. JENNER - Until she found this place on Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - What was Lee doing during that time?
Mrs. MURRET - He was going to school.
Mr. JENNER - When they came back from New York and stopped at your home and lived with you temporarily, did he go to school?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he did. That's when she enrolled him at Beauregard Junior High.
Mr. JENNER - Would that have been in January 1954?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - Well, they left New York City, I think, either on the fifth or the seventh of January 1954. Now, we have an address here in New Orleans of 1464 St. Mary Street.
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, that was before the Exchange Place. She rented that from this lady who was a friend of hers.
Mr. JENNER - Was that Myrtle Evans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; Myrtle Evans. She was a friend of hers.
Mr. JENNER - I believe she also lived for a time at 1910 Prytania, didn't she?
Mrs. MURRET - I think that's right. I'm not sure about those different places, I mean, how she would move from one to the other, but she was at several places up in there before she went to Exchange Place.
Mr. JENNER - Well, we appear from our records to have them living on St. Mary Street in New Orleans in May or June of 1954, until about February 1955.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I don't know anything about that. I know Myrtle Evans was managing that apartment where she lived.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know how it was that she went to live at 126 Exchange Place in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Was that 1954 or 1955?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know--whatever you have down there probably is the right year, but they lived at Myrtle's house first.
Mr. JENNER - Could it have been that Myrtle Evans lived, in the spring of 1954, at 1454 St. Mary Street?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know. Maybe that's right. I know this was a very old house where she lived. I was told that she had a family home---Myrtle and that she had renovated it into a lot of apartments for tenants.
Mr. JENNER - How long did they stay at your house?
Mrs. MURRET - At my house?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, like I said, 2 weeks or 3 weeks at the most, somewhere in there.
Mr. JENNER - And you are pretty sure that they moved directly from your house into this place on Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, either there or to Myrtle's apartment. I don't know which, to be truthful with you.
Mr. JENNER - Now, tell me about Lee Harvey Oswald during the couple of weeks that he spent at your house. Did you notice any change in him from the time you had known him previously? He would now have been about 3 years older; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; like I said, they had just come from New York, and she had told me about him not wanting to go to school, but she enrolled him over at Beauregard School, which wasn't too far from my home. It's a school on Canal Street, and it's just a few blocks after you get off of the bus from Lakeview, so she enrolled him there, and she gave him my address for the school, and I think, or I'm quite sure, that while he was there he was having trouble with some of the boys at the school.
Mr. JENNER - Now, will you tell me about that? Just tell me what you are referring to now with relation to that school.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I can only tell you what I was told. I don't know anything myself that happened, but I can tell you what he told me, or what he told her of what happened. He said they were calling him "Yankee," and so forth, names like that, and this one time he got into the bus and he sat in a seat in the Negro section, which he didn't know, because he had come from New York, and he didn't know that they sat in special seats, so he just got on the bus and sat down where he could. The bus stopped in front of the school, and you can hardly get a seat anyway, so he just ran to the bus and jumped on and got a seat, like I said, in the Negro section, and the boys jumped him at the end of the line. They jumped on him, and he took on all of them, and of course they beat him up, and so he came home, and that was the end of that. He didn't say anything to me about that.
Another time they were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there were boys in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, "Lee," and when he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip, so she had to go over to the school and take him to the dentist, and I paid for the dentist bill myself, and that's all I know about that, and he was not supposed to have started any of that at that time.
Now, at the Beauregard School at that time, they had a very low standard, and I had no children going there and never did. My children went to Jesuit High and Loyola University, but they did have a very bad bunch of boys going to Beauregard and they were always having fights and ganging up on other boys, and I guess Lee wouldn't take anything, so he got in several scrapes like that.
Mr. JENNER - These were things that Mrs. Oswald told you; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; most of it, except when he was in my home, and I observed the way he acted. He was a lonely boy most of the time, I think.
Mr. JENNER - Your children were all entered in school, were they?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And did they study pretty hard?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have the impression that Lee Harvey was doing well in school, or what was your feeling along that line?
Mrs. MURRET - I think he was doing very poor work in school most of the time. Then he got to the point where he just didn't think he ought to have to go to school, and that seemed to be his whole attitude, and when I mentioned that to Marguerite, that seemed to be the beginning of our misunderstanding. She didn't think her child could do anything wrong, and I could see that he wasn't interested in going to school, because I have had children of my own going to school and they always done real well in their grades. They actually seemed to like school, but I can't say that Lee ever showed that he liked school.
Mr. JENNER - When he came with his mother from New York, did he ever discuss anything with you relative to his trip to New York?
Mrs. MURRET - No; he never said anything, but my sister told me about the time they had to take him out of the apartment, when she was working, and put him in that place, and she had to get a lawyer to get him out.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, this boy was about 14 years of age at that time; is that right, after they returned from New York and stayed at your place?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and then the next I heard was when he came here, and he didn't want to go to school because he thought he already knew all that they had to teach him, so she must have allowed him to go to work for Tujague's, because he had a job as a runner, going from building to building, delivering messages and things like that.
Mr. JENNER - That was in 1955, would that be about right?
Mrs. MURRET - When he was here; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did this boy come over to visit you occasionally when they were living in Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he did. Before he got the job with Tujague's, he liked seafood, you see, and he used to come over from school on a Friday afternoon to get his Friday dinner, because he knew I always cooked seafood on Friday, so he always came on Friday, and then he would come again on Saturday morning and I would give him money to rent a bike at City Park, and you know, he thought that was one of the greatest things he could do, and he was very happy riding a bike up in City Park. My children had a bike, but it seemed like he wanted to go up in the park rather than ride their bicycles, and sometimes I would have to get my children back or something, and I would have to give him more money so that he could keep his bike another hour.
Now, when he was going to Beauregard, Joyce, one of my daughters who lives in Beaumont----
Mr. JENNER - Beaumont, Tex.?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; well, I don't think Joyce was married then. I can't think whether she was or not, but anyway, we went to the store and we bought Lee a lot of clothes that we thought he might need so he would look presentable to go to school, you know, whatever a boy needs, and when we gave them to him, he said, "Well, why are you all doing this for me?" And we said, "Well, Lee, for one thing, we love you, and another thing we want you to look nice when you go to school, like the other children." So that was that.
Mr. JENNER - Did he wear this clothing to school?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes; he wore the clothing that we bought him.
Mr. JENNER - Did he say anything else with regard to your purchasing this clothing for him?
Mrs. MURRET - No; he never would discuss anything. He was very independent. Like one time I remember asking him a question about something, and he said, "I don't need anything from anybody," and that's when I told him, I said, "Now listen, Lee, don't you get so independent that you don't think you need anyone, because we all need somebody at one time or other," I said, "so don't you ever get that independent, that you should feel that you don't need anybody, because you do need somebody, sometime you will."
Mr. JENNER - Do you think that a little of this independence might have rubbed off from his mother, in the light of your experiences with your sister?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, she was independent herself all right. She didn't think she needed anybody either, so I guess he sort of got that from her, but I know that there are times when we always need somebody, and if you don't have somebody to turn to, then you don't know what to do sometimes. I would hate to feel that I never needed anybody.
Mr. JENNER - Did Lee seem to have that propensity, that when you did things for him, that he didn't seem to want you doing anything for him?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think he seemed to be very appreciative for anything you did for him. Now, I will say this, at the time he was receiving something, like these clothes, he seemed to be very happy about it, but it didn't last any time, and he never would put it in words at least anyway. We were probably the only people that he knew as relatives. I don't think he knew anyone else in the family.
Mr. JENNER - In the Oswald family, do you mean?
Mrs. MURRET - In the Oswald family or any other family. I mean, we were the only ones he knew, and I got to know him pretty well since I took care of him while she had the other two boys in this place, after she gave birth to Lee, but along with him I had these five children of my own to take care of, and I had a colored girl working for me. When John was born, I had a child that was just a few months older than John Edward, but I gave her my girl for weeks, and I was struggling along with my five, and a baby the same age as she had, you know. I tried to do all I could to help her.
Mr. JENNER - Would you recognize Lee's handwriting if you saw it?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't say that I would. I may. I may have expressed it before, but I thought he had a very childish handwriting.
Mr. JENNER - Did you see his handwriting often?
Mrs. MURRET - Only at the time when he was going to Beauregard School, with his homework.
Mr. JENNER - Without noting that you have Commission Exhibit No. 540 before you, do you recognize that handwriting?
Mrs. MURRET - Wait till I get my glasses.
Mr. JENNER - All right; take your time.
Mrs. MURRET - I couldn't say I recognized it. It looks a little like, something like his writing, I mean, the way he would write, but I couldn't say for sure--I couldn't swear that that was his writing.
Mr. JENNER - You couldn't swear that he wrote this?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - Does it look like what you recall his handwriting was?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, if it's anything, it's even a little better than I knew him to write, I might say. I never thought he wrote very well for his age, and he was 14 then, you know. Of course, a lot of boys don't write good. Girls, you will find, are better at penmanship than boys. You ought to see my son's writing. He graduated from law school, and he don't write good either. Now, I think he was left handed.
Mr. JENNER - Now, you have caused me complications, Mrs. Murret. Commission Exhibit 540 has a series of pages which are numbered at the bottom, 148 through 157, both inclusive, purporting to be photostatic copies of a diary or the memoirs of Lee Harvey Oswald, written in his hand, and found by Irving, Tex., police and the city of Dallas police, or at least certainly by the city of Dallas police; in his room.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, here's one that says that he was--you see, when he stopped in that Saturday, you know, we didn't know where he was going, but he said he was going to be stationed at Keesler Field----
Mr. JENNER - Is that Keesler Field at Biloxi?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. But someone else said that they thought that when he came to my house on that Saturday, when he stopped there, that he was coming from Atlanta, Ga., that day, but anyway, we took Lee to lunch that day and then dropped him off, if I remember right, by the customhouse up here by the river, and that's all I remember about that, and I never saw him any more after that until he turned up in Russia.
Mr. JENNER - After he defected to Russia?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir. I told him, I said, "Lee, if you are going to be stationed over there, you can come over weekends."
Mr. JENNER - Did he say he was going to be stationed there?
Mrs. MURRET - At Keesler Field?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he said he was going to be.
Mr. JENNER - And that is over at Biloxi, Miss.?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; but he never did come over and see us, and he never did write. I asked him to write, but he didn't write, and I never heard any more from him. I didn't even know that he was back from Russia.
Mr. JENNER - And you didn't know that he had gone to Russia either; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right; I didn't know he had gone over there at all. I didn't know he went until after he went.
Mr. JENNER - How did you learn he was in Russia? Did his mother tell you that he was in Russia?
Mrs. MURRET - That he had defected, yes. That was about the time she had this accident, I remember, and then he got out of the Marines.
Mr. JENNER - Now, that was before he defected; right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that was before he went to Russia. He got out of the Marines and he came to see her, and he had all that money, but he didn't give her any of it, I don't think, but $10. I think he gave her $10, she told me and then he left, supposedly to come to New Orleans, so she thought, so I didn't hear from her any more until she learned by him from letter that he was in Russia.
Mr. JENNER - So she told you that; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - She told me; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Was the fact that he had defected prominently displayed in the New Orleans papers?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, not here so much, but in Fort Worth and so forth, over there, they mentioned it; they made quite a to do about it.
Mr. JENNER - There was nothing in the New Orleans papers about it?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think. There might have been.
Mr. JENNER - Well, at least it didn't come to your attention?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think they had anything here about that at all, but they did have it a lot in the Fort Worth paper.
Mr. JENNER - Did she send any of those newspaper clippings to you?
Mrs. MURRET - No; she came down here.
Mr. JENNER - To New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And she told you all about it?
Mrs. MURRET - She told me all about it, what she knew about it. She didn't know too much about it, she said, why he did it or anything like that, but she said that he had a right to go any place he wanted to go, I believe.
Mr. JENNER - Did she seem to think he was living in the pattern that she had brought him up in?
Mrs. MURRET - What's that?
Mr. JENNER - Did she seem to think that he was living in the pattern that she had brought him up in, that is, to be independent?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, it's hard to judge that. When you only have one person, or one child, maybe you do have a tendency to feel that way, but who knows what's in a person's mind. I think your mind is what really belongs to you, and I don't think anyone knows what's running through your mind. I really believe that, so I couldn't tell you how she felt about it, or how he felt about it, or what made him do the things he did. I can only tell you what I think, but that doesn't mean that I know, because I really don't. You just can't tell what's running through a person's mind. You may think you know their mind, but you don't, I don't think. I think he went over there because he wasn't satisfied with the life he was living, and maybe he wanted to see how it was over there, I guess; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have any conversations with him about it?
Mrs. MURRET - After he came back?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - No. Oh, I spoke about it, and he might say something once in awhile about how they lived or something, but he never did discuss it.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have any talks with your sister or with him when he was working as a delivery boy or messenger boy for Tujague's?
Mrs. MURRET - No. I didn't know anything other than he was working there, and he was a runner, and that sort of thing, for them.
Mr. JENNER - Now, he had not yet graduated from high school; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't believe he had graduated from high school yet; no, sir. He came out of this junior high, and like I said, I didn't even know he went to Easton. I remember one morning he came over to the house, and he said that he wanted to get on the ball team, but he didn't have any shoes and he didn't have a glove, so I said, "Well, Lee, we can fix you up," and I gave him a glove, but I don't think we had shoes to fit him. Joyce's husband sent him a pair of shoes from Beaumont, a pair of baseball shoes, and I told Lee, I said, "Lee, when you need anything, just ask me for it, and if there's a way to get it for you, we will get it." So then he got on the team, I think, but he got off as quick as he got on. I don't know why. He never discussed that with us as to why that was, and we never found out.
Mr. JENNER - He never discussed that with you?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't think he got on the team though. He never did actually play on it, I don't think. For one thing, I don't think he was the type of boy who was too good an athlete.
Like a lot of boys, I guess they wanted him to be one of those that sit on the bench, and he didn't like to sit on the bench, so when they didn't let him play on the team and wanted him to sit on the bench, I guess he just left, I don't know that though.
Mr. JENNER - You think that's what happened to Lee, do you?
Mrs. MURRET - I think that's what might have happened to him. I don't know though.
Mr. JENNER - Was he a competitive person?
Mrs. MURRET - Was he what?
Mr. JENNER - Was he competitive?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't think so. Like I said, at school his only remark about that was that he didn't think he had to go to school to learn these subjects, because he knew all of them. He said he wasn't learning anything, and it was just a waste of time.
I told him, I said, "Lee, that's not the idea. It's not a waste of time. You have got to go through school in order to graduate, because you need to graduate to get anywhere in this world." I told him, "You are going to have to go on to college and make something out of yourself, even if you think you know all the subjects." I think that's one of the things that Marguerite got a little put out with me about. She always wanted to let Lee have his way about everything.
Even after he came back from Russia, I talked to him about that, but he answered me the same way. He said he didn't see any use in going to school, that he knew all the subjects.
Mr. JENNER - Did your children discuss Lee in your presence?
Mrs. MURRET - Did they discuss Lee?
Mr. JENNER - Yes. What did your children think of Lee?
Mrs. MURRET - They loved Lee, I think. He was in my home, and he acted like any other boy would act, no different, as far as that goes. I didn't have television then, so he would eat dinner and then listen to the radio and go to bed, and get up the next morning and do the same things. Actually, the children didn't have much contact with him, because he wouldn't go out and play at all. They really loved him a lot, though. They have always loved him.
Mr. JENNER - Then eventually they went to Texas; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, was that in the fall of 1956?
Mrs. MURRET - I think so; yes.
Mr. JENNER - They left New Orleans and went to Texas in 1956; right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right. That's when he joined the Marines. I don't know what that date is, but I know he joined the Marines after they left.
Mr. JENNER - Your sister didn't tell you and Lee didn't tell you that they were about to move to Texas?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I think that's about the time that Robert came in, because the next thing she said was that Robert didn't want to stay here. He didn't want to make his home here, he said. He said New Orleans was not his home, but that his friends were in Texas, so I don't know if Robert left first, or if they all left together. In fact, I didn't know she was leaving until she rang up one day--she had a sewing machine that belonged to us, a portable sewing machine that we had loaned her, and she called one day and said she was already packed and ready to go to the train station, or whatever it was the way she was going, and all she said was, "We're leaving; come get your machine." We never did get the machine. When we went up there, the place was locked up, and we never did get it back.
Mr. JENNER - This was a portable electric sewing machine?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she told us she was leaving right then, and to come and get it. She said she would leave it there in the house or something like that, or it's in the house or something, and that was it. Like I said, when we got over there the place was locked up and we didn't get the machine back. She had some furniture that belonged to her there, I think, so I don't know whether she took anything with her besides her clothing or not; but she left.
Mr. JENNER - And where was this she called you from, do you know?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, they were over on Exchange Place at that time.
Mr. JENNER - Exchange?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you go right over there to get the machine?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't. When we did go over the place was all locked up.
Mr. JENNER - So then that was the circumstance, as you knew it, after Robert got out of the service?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and came to New Orleans. She thought he might live here and work and help support the family.
Mr. JENNER - But he didn't like New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right. He said all his friends were in Texas, and he wanted to move over there.
Mr. JENNER - He said he wanted to live in Texas where his friends were?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that's what he said. He said Texas was his home, not New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER - And so they moved to Texas?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and shortly after that--I forget when--but Robert married, and I didn't even know he was married.
Mr. JENNER - You didn't even know that?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - What kind of boy was Robert?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know too much about Robert. After they moved away, I didn't know too much about Robert, and I didn't know John too well either. There's one thing. Robert and John, they never recognized one another as brothers.
Mr. JENNER - Tell me about that.
Mrs. MURRET - They were stepbrothers, but having lived together from real small children, you would think that they would love one another as brothers, you know. You would think being small children, they would accept each other as brothers and wouldn't think anything about being halfbrothers or stepbrothers.
Mr. JENNER - Except they had two different names, Pic and Oswald; right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER - Tell me this, Mrs. Murret: do you think that the fact that your sister Marguerite insisted on John Edward Pic retaining his Pic name despite the fact that her husband Oswald wanted to adopt him, contributed to that feeling between the two boys?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I don't think, because John was 2 years old when she married Oswald, and then Robert was born a few years after that, so I don't think that would bring that about, but that's what she told me, that Oswald wanted to adopt John, and she said, "No; John has a father, and his name is Pic, and let's leave it at Pic and let the father contribute to him."
Mr. JENNER - Well, perhaps I didn't frame my question right. You were under the impression that the boys were conscious of the difference in the name Pic as against Oswald, weren't you?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you do recall that each regarded the other as his brother; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I think Lee loved Robert a lot, but maybe he wasn't too fond of John. In a different way maybe he didn't love John as much as he did Robert. That's just what I think.
Mr. JENNER - How did John and Robert get along?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know. I was never in their presence too much at that age. I kept them when Mrs. Oswald gave birth to Lee, but they were little then, you know, and they seemed to be getting along all right. I had them for about a week, and I remember sitting outside and they were saying that it had better not be a girl. "Because we don't want any girls in this family."
Mr. JENNER - Oh well, that was boy talk, was it not?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes; but they did say, "It had better not be a girl."
Mr. JENNER - When did you first become aware that Lee had entered the Marines?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, not until he came in that Saturday.
Mr. JENNER - When he wanted to be stationed at Keesler Field?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right, that's what he said when he came through on a Saturday, but then I never heard any more from Lee at all.
Mr. JENNER - Now, you have already touched on some information regarding when he went to Russia. Marguerite communicated with you about the fact that he was in Russia; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, like I said, my son-in-law contacted her because we hadn't heard from her in a very long time, so he looked in the telephone book over there and found her number.
Mr. JENNER - What is your son-in-law's name?
Mrs. MURRET - Emile O'Brien. He called her and he told us that she said that she had this accident, like I told you before, so I called her, I think, or her brother--I can't remember which. Anyway, we sent her a box of clothes at Christmas time, anything that we could think of, and then I sent her money at different times during the week, as much as I could afford and so forth, and she said she was trying to get this hardship discharge for Lee so he could leave the Marines and come home.
It was pretty near time for him to get out, but when he came in, he only stayed there for 2 days at her house, or 1 day, or whatever it was, and he said, "Well, this is it; this is not for me," and he left, and that's when she called me and she said she thought he was coming to New Orleans and that he would be coming by bus, she thought, and that maybe he would be coming to my house, but for me not to tell him that she had called me, but I never saw Lee or anything.
Mr. JENNER - Did he contact you at all?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I never saw Lee or never heard any more from him until the next thing I knew was when she told me she received this letter, I think, from Russia.
Mr. JENNER - She called you and told you about that?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Now, during all this time that he was in the Marines, he didn't write you, did he?
Mrs. MURRET - I never heard from him; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER - The only time he saw you was on that one Saturday?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And when he was here on that Saturday, he told you he was going to be stationed at Keesler Field.
Mrs. MURRET - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - Did he say anything about what his experiences had been in the Marines?
Mrs. MURRET - He didn't say anything. It was a rush affair. He came up and rang the bell, and he was in uniform, and he said, "What do you think, the people on the bus thought I was a cadet, and here I am a big Marine." We took him out to lunch, and we left him off at the Custom House, like I said, and that was the end of that. But, maybe you might like to know this: before Lee went into the Marines, while he was in New Orleans and they were going to live on Exchange Alley, I think he tried to join the service then, a branch of the service. I don't know which branch or anything, but anyway, he must have gone to the induction station and they told him that he could sign up if his mother would sign. Now, he met her in town, I think, and he was all excited and he wanted to join the Marines or whatever it was he was going to join. I can't remember if it was the Marines, and he said, "If you will sign for me, I can go." And she said, "No; I am not going to sign for you," so he was very indignant about the whole thing, and h e told her that she was stopping him from going in, so then that went around for a while, and then he came back and told her that if she would sign an affidavit, go to the lawyer's office and sign an affidavit, that he would be able to get in, so she went around to the lawyer's office. with him, and I think it was in Mr. Sere's office--he has expired since then--and Mr. Sere told her, "Well, since you can't do anything with him, and if that's what he wants to do, well, go ahead and let him go." So the affidavit was signed for him to go in the service, so then the next step was that when he got over to the place--I don't know whether it was the auditorium or not that they sent him over with his suitcase but the person who was in charge there wouldn't let him sign up, wouldn't let him go, and that was that.
Mr. JENNER - You mean they wouldn't take the affidavit? They wouldn't admit him on the affidavit?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right, and so that upset him for a while, but he said very little about it. And then he met someone in this branch of the service who had taken a liking to him, and he used to go over there and converse with him about different things in the service and so forth. I don't know who he was or what they talked about or anything like that, though.
Mr. JENNER - Was Lee an industrious boy as a high school boy? He didn't seem to have worked much after school.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, of course, he was a young kid. I don't know what he did at home. I know I never did have anything for him to do at my house.
Mr. JENNER - Did your boys work after school when they did go to school?
Mrs. MURRET - My boys?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - My boys--let's see. They always went to school, and during vacation time, well, they had paper routes and things like that.
Mr. JENNER - That's what I mean.
Mrs. MURRET - One of my boys had a paper route, and he bought about $900 worth of bonds, because I figured that I didn't need his money to feed him, and by buying a bond every 2 weeks, he would have enough to go to school later on; and it really came in handy, and then he used to pass out public service bills. One of my boys had three jobs at one time. He used to go to Loyola, where he was studying sociology, and he was given a fellowship to work in Father Victor's office. He was a priest, and he helped the father write a book, so he was given a fellowship that last year, but he always worked his way, and Marilyn had went to school and she had worked her way through school too, and Joyce, we helped pay her way through, but she had to leave school for 1 year and go to work in order to get back again to school, but now Lee just didn't think he had to go to school. He said that he was smart enough and that he couldn't learn anything at school, that nobody could teach him anything. I think his mother thought he was very sm art too, evidently, you know, because she always upheld his brightness, and he was bright, you know.
Mr. JENNER - Did he do a lot of reading when he stayed at your home?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he didn't do much reading at my house, but she said he stayed in the room up there where they lived and read all the time, and that he had this little radio that he had taken apart and fixed, and so forth, things like that, and he said he didn't have any friends because it was no use, because they didn't like to do the things he liked to do.
Mr. JENNER - Who didn't like to do the things he liked to do?
Mrs. MURRET - Lee's friends wouldn't like to do the things Lee liked to do. Lee said that. Most of the boys had money, you know, and went out on the weekends with girls and so forth, but Lee couldn't afford those things, so he didn't mix, but he did like to visit the museums and walk around the front and go to the park and do things like that, and you very seldom can get a teenager to do that kind of thing these days not even then. They don't all like that type of life, you know, but that's what he liked.
Mr. JENNER - Was he inclined to want to be by himself?
Mrs. MURRET - What's that?
Mr. JENNER - Was he inclined to want to be by himself?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he said that that was the reason why, because I asked him, "Why don't you go out with the boys from school?" and so forth, and he said, "Well, they don't like the same things I like." But I do remember when he was at my house he used to call some little girl all the time and talk to her quite a long time on the telephone, and I think he made friends with some boy at Beauregard School when he was in the Sea Scouts for a while. He had a uniform and everything. He didn't stay in there too long, I don't think.
Mr. JENNER - He wasn't in the Sea Scouts too long?
Mrs. MURRET - No; he wasn't.
Mr. JENNER - Is there a Liberty Hotel here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - There could be.
Mr. JENNER - Or the Hotel Liberty?
Mrs. MURRET - There might be; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - What kind of apartment was that that your sister Marguerite had on Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET - Well. that was a pretty nice apartment she had there.
Mr. JENNER - On Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that was a nice apartment that she had. A lot of people would be surprised, because with all those poolrooms and everything down below, it looks like a pretty rough section, but she had a real nice apartment. I know we read in the papers about, you know, condemning that section where the boy lived, and so forth, you know, and all that sort of stuff, but they would be surprised at how nice an apartment that was up there that they had. A lot of people like to live in the French Quarter just because it's the Vieux Carre, and because of that reason rents are pretty high.
Anyway, her rent was considered reasonable. She had her own bedroom, and she had a large living room, and breakfast room and bath. It was a very nice place, and she fixed it up real nice. Lee had the bedroom, and my sister used to sleep on the studio couch and she found the apartment really convenient, being right off of Canal Street and everything. If she wanted to go to the movie, it was just down the block, and if she wanted to go to any other stores, she was right in that area where she could go, so actually it was economical to live that close to Canal Street, so she actually saved money that way, she told me.
Of course, they had these poolrooms and so forth in that section, but I don't think that Lee ever went into those places, because he never was a boy that got into any trouble. For one thing, he never did go out. We all knew that he should have been going out, but he stayed in and read or something. The average teenager who was going to school at Beauregard would have probably been in there shooting pool and things like that, but he didn't do that. His morals were very good. His character seemed to be good, and he was very polite and refined. There was one thing he did: he walked very straight. He always did, and some people thought that was part of his attitude, that he was arrogant or something like that, but of course you can't please everybody.
Mr. JENNER - But he did have a good opinion of himself, did he not?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER - Did you hear from him when he was in Russia?
Mrs. MURRET - One time I heard--it was a postcard, and I think it was the last Christmas that he spent in Russia, and he wrote this postcard, and all he had on it was, "Merry Christmas," and he said on it, "Write to my mother," and he gave me the box number on the card. Now, I wanted to keep this card, but I had the children at the house at the time, and I laid the card on the side, and I didn't copy the address when I did write out a postcard to send to him, and in the meantime Gene----
Mr. JENNER - That's your son Gene?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he was at the seminary, and they were saving foreign stamps in connection with something over at the seminary, so he took that card with him, and after I had written the card to Lee, the children tore it up, so I didn't have the address any more.
When I wrote to Lee I didn't want to write anything in a letter, you know, so I just wrote it on an open card, but the children tore that up and I lost the address, so I couldn't write to him at that point.
Mr. JENNER - You did write a card, but your children tore it up?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, my grandchildren; it was just a postcard, you know.
Mr. JENNER - So there wasn't any communication between you or any member of your family and Lee while he was in Russia, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right. We just got that one card from Lee, and I never answered it because the card was destroyed before I could mail it.
Mr. JENNER - When next did you hear about Lee? I mean now, before you saw him, when next did you hear about him?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I just heard that he was over in Russia, that he had defected to that country, but they came to New Orleans after that, and then they went back to Texas.
Mr. JENNER - You mean Marguerite?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; they were over here after that.
Mr. JENNER - Did she live in New Orleans for a while then?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - She just came for a visit?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did she stay with you?
Mrs. MURRET - She stayed with me; yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you had discussions during that time about his going to Russia?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, not too much.
Mr. JENNER - What statements were made, if any? I mean, what was your impression?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, she seemed kind of upset about it. I mean, she tried to get him to get back to the States, but she said he didn't talk to her over the telephone.
Mr. JENNER - You mean she tried to reach him by telephone?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir. The paper office over there in Fort Worth was the one who contacted Lee at the hotel over there, but he didn't talk. He hung up. I believe Robbie tried to get him back, and so forth, but that's all I know about it. So then we didn't hear any more from her after she left here. She said she was going to get lost.
Mr. JENNER - She said that to you?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. She said nobody was going to know where she was going.
Mr. JENNER - Why?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know why, so then I didn't hear from her any more until one day the telephone rang and I answered the phone, and Lee said, "Hello, Aunt Lillian," and I didn't recognize his voice, and not thinking about Lee, you know, and I have other nephews, and I said, "Who is this?" and he said, "This is Lee," and I said, "Lee?" and he said, "Yes."
I said, "When did you get out? When did you get back? What are you doing?" He said, "I have been back since about a year-and-a-half now," and I said, "Well, I'm glad you got back," and he said, "I'm married, and I got a baby." I think he said she was 14 months old, so anyway, he said, "Would you put me up for a while?" And he said, "I am down here trying to find a job; would you put me up for a while?" And I said, "Well, we will be glad to, Lee," but then I started thinking, because if he had a wife and child, I would have to make other arrangements maybe, and so I asked him, I said, "Lee, are you alone?" and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Well, come right on out."
Mr. JENNER - This was in May or April 1963; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Just about a year ago?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Do you remember whether it was May or April, which month it was.
Mrs. MURRET - It was way after Easter, I know. It was possibly the week after Easter.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, he arrived at your home; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, he took the streetcar and bus, I suppose, to be coming to my house, and he came out to the house and he was very poorly dressed.
Mr. JENNER - How was he dressed?
Mrs. MURRET - He just had on a sportshirt, and a very poorly pair of pants.
Mr. JENNER - Did he have a suit coat on?
Mrs. MURRET - A suit coat?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - No, he didn't.
Mr. JENNER - Was your husband home?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - Was anybody other than you home?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - What luggage did he have when he arrived at your home?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think he came with anything over to the house. He could have one of these bags, I mean when he came to my home from the bus station.
Mr. JENNER - Now, this is particularly important to us. Let me take you back now to just a year ago, and tell me first of all, as to your recollection of whether he had any luggage with him when he arrived at your house.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I asked him over the telephone where he was, and he said he was at the bus station, and when I asked him to come out, he came right on out, and when he came into my house, I think he was only carrying just a little handbag, they call it.
Mr. JENNER - What color was it?
Mrs. MURRET - Possibly it was brown.
Mr. JENNER - Brown?
Mrs. MURRET - I think so.
Mr. JENNER - What kind of material was it?
Mrs. MURRET - What the handbag was made of?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - I think it was just cloth.
Mr. JENNER - A cloth bag?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did he have it in just one hand?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - It was not a Marine duffelbag or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER - It wasn't too large, then?
Mrs. MURRET - No; it was small.
Mr. JENNER - The witness indicates about 14 inches.
Mrs. MURRET - It was just an ordinary bag, like athletes use to put their clothes in, something like that.
Mr. JENNER - And that's all he had on that occasion? You are sure of that?
Mrs. MURRET - When he arrived at the house; yes, sir. But he had things over at the bus station.
Mr. JENNER - I see.
Mrs. MURRET - He had a duffelbag and some boxes over there, I know.
Mr. JENNER - How do you know that?
Mrs. MURRET - How do I know that?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - Because I asked Mr. Murret to go over to the bus station and pick up all that stuff and bring it back to the house, which he did, and they put it in the garage. He wanted to leave it there until he found an apartment.
Mr. JENNER - And did Mr. Murret go to the bus station with Lee?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - That evening?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - In your automobile?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And he picked up the materials at the bus station and other packages; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Were you home when they came back from the bus station?
Mrs. MURRET - I might have been inside. I didn't go into the garage, if that's what you mean, but that's where they put the things, in the garage.
Mr. JENNER - Did you see anything in the garage eventually?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I saw a duffelbag out there, and I saw ordinary cardboard boxes with things in them, and I don't know what was in anything. It had U.S. Marine written over it.
Mr. JENNER - Over the duffelbag?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - How many duffelbags were there?
Mrs. MURRET - Quite a few, I think.
Mr. JENNER - More than two duffelbags?
Mrs. MURRET - I could be wrong, but I think there were more.
Mr. JENNER - Would you say that there were at least two duffelbags, and that there could have been more than two?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. I think some of the boxes must have contained baby clothes and things like that, and in fact, I was wondering how in the world he got all of that stuff on the bus. I never did ask him, but he really had a load of stuff with him. It was all there at the bus station though.
Mr. JENNER - Did he have any long packages with him?
Mrs. MURRET - I wouldn't know that. Do you mean any visible long packages?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - I didn't see any.
Mr. JENNER - These cardboard boxes, were they ordinary cardboard boxes that a person would pack things in?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I guess there were clothes in those.
Mr. JENNER - Did he have any long flat package with him?
Mrs. MURRET - I didn't see any.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever see any package wrapped in unbroken or tan wrapping paper?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think. Like I said, I knew there were all kinds of things back in there, all bunched up, more or less. Everything was in such a little space back there, but it was all together, and my washing machine is out there, but I never one time pried into or disarranged any of that stuff or anything like that. I figured that wasn't any of my business.
Mr. JENNER - Did you see any package that stood up on end at all?
Mrs. MURRET - I didn't see any like that; no.
Mr. JENNER - Anything that looked like, oh, say, a tent pole, long and hard?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't see anything that looked like that. There were just some boxes and duffelbags and bundles that I saw, and I do know one time he was back there when I was back there and he pulled out a Russian cap that they wear in Russia, and boots, you know, these leather Russian boots, but that's all I saw.
Mr. JENNER - Did the Russian cap have any insignia on it, or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; the Russian cap had fur on it, like the Russians wear in cold weather.
Mr. JENNER - Did it have any insignia on it, or a Red star, or hammer and sickle or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET - No; not that I saw. What struck me as odd that was that Lee didn't seem to have anything to wear. I told him, "Lee, you don't look too presentable. I am going to buy you some clothes." My boys were all big all over 6 feet, so nothing they had would fit Lee, so he said no, that he had a lot of things, but that they were all packed. He said that's all right, but all he had on at the time was a T-shirt and pants, and I think he had only about two T-shirts with him.
Mr. JENNER - You say he had no suit coat?
Mrs. MURRET - No; and only one pair of shoes. I even offered to buy him a pair of shoes, but he said no, that he had some shoes packed away.
Mr. JENNER - Did he ever get them out?
Mrs. MURRET - No, he didn't get them out. He said he just wanted to put up there for a few days, you see, because he was trying to find a job, he told me, and then he said he would send for Marina, his wife, and the child. and I asked him to tell us what she looks like, you know, to describe her, and he said, "Well, she's just like any other American housewife." He said, "She wears shorts," and so forth, just like any other American housewife, and he said he would have to have a newspaper so he could scan the want ads and try to find himself a job, and so every morning he would get up and go through the newspaper looking for a job, and he would go out every morning with his newspaper, and he wouldn't come back until the afternoon, until supper time. I had supper anywhere from 5:30 to 6 o'clock, and he was there on time every day for supper, and after supper he didn't leave the house. He would sit down about 6:30 or 7 o'clock, and look at some television programs, and then he would go right to bed, and he did that every day while he was at the house, and so then on the first Sunday he was there, he was talking--we were talking about relatives, and he said to me, "Do you know anything about the Oswalds?" and I said, no, I said that I didn't. I said, "I don't know any of them other than your father, and I saw your uncle one time." I said, "I don't know anything about the family; I don't know them," so he said, "Well, you know, I don't know any of my relatives." He said, "You are the only one I know."
Now, this was on a Sunday, and Lee had come to my house on a Monday.
Now what he didn't tell me was that on Sunday he must have gone to the cemetery where his father was buried. That's right at the end of the Lakeview line, where I live. He went to the cemetery. I guess he went to ask the person in charge about the grave. Anyway, he found it, and while he was there he saw someone who knew the Oswalds. I didn't get whether she was related or not, but they got to talking about the family some way. I don't know what all they talked about, but anyway, Lee looked in the paper and finally he found this job--I don't know where it was, but it was up on Rampart Street, and they wanted someone to letter.
Mr. JENNER - To letter?
Mrs. MURRET - To do lettering work, yes, and so he called this man and the man said to come on out, so he went on out there to see about this job.
First, while he was waiting for the appointment time, he sat down and tried to letter, and well, it was a little sad, because he couldn't letter as well as my next door neighbor's 6-year-old child, but I didn't say anything, so when he got back he said, "Well, I didn't get the job." He said, "They want someone who can letter, and I don't know how to do that."
So that's when he got into the subject of the Oswald family again, and he sat down and took the telephone book, and he called all the Oswalds in the telephone book until he came to the one person who was the right Oswald, and this was an elderly lady living in Metairie. She was the wife of one of the Oswalds, so he told her--he had a map; he always carried a map with him to find directions. If he wanted to go to a certain place, he would never ask you how to get there. He would always take this map and mark the route out himself.
So he went to see this lady, and she was the wife of one of the brothers in the Oswald family, and she told him that everybody was dead, I think, and she gave him a picture of his father, and she gave him some other pictures, and then she invited him back. He said she was a very nice lady, and was very, very happy, but I don't think he ever went back to see her.
So the next day, Monday, well, he went back to his job hunting again, and he continued that way until one morning he saw this job with the Riley Coffee Co., and he went down and applied and he got the job, and he came home waving the newspaper, and he grabbed me around the neck, and he even kissed me, and he said, "I got it; I got it!"
Mr. JENNER - He was quite happy that he had gotten work?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I said, "Well, Lee, how much does it pay?" and he said, "Well, it don't pay very much." He said, "It don't pay very much, but I will get along on it."
I said, "Well, you know, Lee, you are really not qualified to do anything too much. If you don't like this job, why don't you try to go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." And he said, "No, I don't have to go back to school. I don't have to learn anything. I know everything." So that's the way it was. I couldn't tell him any more. I had told him what I thought he should do, but if he thought he was smart enough, then there was nothing else I could do.
Mr. JENNER - Did you get the impression when you were talking along these lines that he really believed he was that smart?
Mrs. MURRET - He believed that he was smart; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - You don't think he was spoofing you?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I think he really thought he was smart, and I don't think he envied anybody else. He thought he was very smart, and I don't think he envied anyone else, because he thought he knew it all, I guess. He didn't think he had to have a profession or anything else. We didn't even know when he left this job.
Mr. JENNER - Well, before we get to that, while he was living with you, did he read while he was home at night?
Mrs. MURRET - Did he read?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - He didn't read any books?
Mrs. MURRET - You see, he went out all day. He would get up and leave early in the morning. He wouldn't eat any breakfast. I would try to fix him an egg and bacon or something like that, but he didn't want anything to eat for breakfast and he wouldn't take a thing. We always eat a big breakfast in our family, but he wouldn't eat a thing. He would just get dressed and go out with his newspaper to look for a job, and come home in time for supper and then he would sit around a while and watch television and then go to bed, and he followed that same pattern all while he was with us, until he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co.
Mr. JENNER - Did he ever talk to you about Russia during that time, his life in Russia, and how he felt about it?
Mrs. MURRET - No; the only thing he spoke about was the relatives. He said in Russia all the relatives knew one another and he said they all lived together, and he said if one comes in and he wants to stay overnight, that they will put him up in a corner, or help him out with clothes and so forth, but of course he worked in a factory while he was over there.
Mr. JENNER - Did he tell you that?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he did tell me he worked in a factory and he did work around the machinery, but that's all he told me about that, but then when he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co. and started to work there, he said, well, that was no different than any other factory in Russia. I said, "Well, what do you mean by that?" He said, "Well, the equipment was just as bad, the machines, and the work conditions were not any different from Russia," but that's all he would say about it. We didn't talk about it too much.
Mr. JENNER - Do you mean he inferred that the machinery at the Riley Coffee Co. was outdated as compared with the machinery in Russia?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; as compared with the machinery in Russia, and he said you had to work hard. He said they work you hard at the plant.
Mr. JENNER - Did he say anything about his reaction to Russia?
Mrs. MURRET - No; he never spoke about Russia that way. He would only talk when you would ask him a question, that's all. He wouldn't ever tell you anything. When he first came in and stayed with us. I asked him a few things about Russia, but he wouldn't talk much about it. He never expressed an opinion about Russia at all. About all he would say was that they were just about like any other people. That's about all he would say.
Mr. JENNER - He didn't talk then about his views on the Russian government?
Mrs. MURRET - No; not to me. There was no time really. The way things were, like I said, he would come home in time for supper and then watch a little television and go to bed, and he never spoke about anything.
Mr. JENNER - Did he ever discuss his life in the Marines with you?
Mrs. MURRET - No; he never talked about that either. He did say that he was wanting to get out of Russia so that he could bring his wife and child over to this country, and he said the Immigration Department loaned him $365 and some odd cents, to use to get out of Russia, and he said he worked for the Dallas or Fort Worth, for some photographer in there, one of those places--I forget which--but he did say that he worked until he paid it all back, and I said, "If you made that much money on that job, why did they let you go?" And he said, "Well, they didn't want a third man on the job," or something like that.
Mr. JENNER - They didn't want a third man on the job?
Mrs. MURRET - That's what he said, that they didn't want a third man on the job.
Mr. JENNER - And you say that was in Dallas that he worked for this photographer?
Mrs. MURRET - I think it was Dallas that he said; yes. It was either Dallas or Fort Worth. I think it was Dallas. He said he liked the job all right, but he said they let him go because they didn't want a third man. Now, I don't know if that's a true story or not. So then he came here to look for a job, and he said when he found a job, that he would have Marina and the child to come over here. I think before that time Marina had called, but he hadn't found anything then, so when he called and told her he had this job, she must have been all packed and everything, because they got here so quick.
Mr. JENNER - Well, did you hear him talk to her over the telephone.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he spoke in Russian, in the Russian language.
Mr. JENNER - Did you say anything to him about that?
Mrs. MURRET - Did I say anything about him speaking to her in Russian?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't, but I did wonder about it, here was a man speaking in Russian who was an American, and he had had his wife over in this country for a year and a half, he said, and I did wonder why he didn't try to teach her English, but anyway, he called her after he got the job, and he got right off the phone and said, "I am going out and look for an apartment." So sure enough he found an apartment the very first day, and he came back and he said, "I have found an apartment," and I think it was $65 a month, he said the rent was. Then he told me about a Mrs. Paine who he said had been very nice to Marina who was going to bring Marina on down with the baby, and he said, "I would like to get a very nice apartment with an extra room so if Mrs. Paine wants to stay a few days, we will have a place for her to stay." And I wondered about that too, renting an expensive apartment like he had in mind, but apartments were hard to find about that time, and I told him, "If you have a nice apartment, I think you had bett er keep it, because it's just temporary," and it was a nice apartment, or at least that's what he told me. He said, "Do you know how I got that apartment?" And I said, "No, I don't," and he said, "Well, I'll tell you. I rode around a while, and I decided to stop at Myrtle's house ."
Mr. JENNER - That's Myrtle Evans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - All right, go ahead.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he said he stopped at Myrtle's house and went up to the door, and she came to the door but she didn't recognize him, she didn't recognize Lee.
Mr. JENNER - He was telling you this; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he told me how he did that, and he said he asked Myrtle did she have an apartment, that he was looking for an apartment for his wife and baby who were coming from Texas, and so Myrtle said, "Well, I'm sorry, but I only have an apartment on the second floor, and I don't think that would be good, you know, for your wife." Lee said to her, "Do you know who I am?" and she said, "No." And he said, "I am Lee Oswald." She said, "Well, don't tell me! Lee, I would never have recognized you." She said, "The last I heard of you from your aunt, she told me you were in Russia," because I did see Myrtle one day and she knew me. I never was what you would call a friend of Myrtle, but of course she knew who I was, because we got to know each other at a card party where I was working at Jesuit's, and she asked about Lee at that time, and I told her that Lee had defected to Russia. So she told Lee that the last time she had heard of him, he was in Russia, and he said, "Well, but I am back, and I am married to a Russia n girl." So Myrtle says, "Well, come on, Lee," and I think she gave Lee some lunch, and then she decided to help him find an apartment.
She told him, "We are not going to a real estate office, because prices are high, and I know because I manage apartments myself, so we will just ride in and out the streets and see what we can find." So they got in her car and went riding up Magazine Street, and there was a sign on a house, apartment for rent, and so they went and knocked and inquired about the apartment, and the lady said how much it was, and it was very clean with a new stove and a new refrigerator, and it was newly wall papered and it had a floor furnace and a large living room and a bedroom and bath connecting the bedroom, and another small room and kitchen and a front porch, and a closed-in yard, and so Myrtle said to Lee, "Lee, this is great. You had better take this place." Well, Lee said, "Well, I don't know. The ceilings are high and Marina doesn't like high ceilings," but she said, "Well, I think you had better get this place, because it's all you can afford," so he said he would take it. But I don't think Marina ever liked high cei lings, but anyway, after he called Marina, then they came in on Saturday.
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me for interrupting, but before we get them coming in, did he ever say anything to you as to why he left Russia?
Mrs. MURRET - Did he say why he left Russia?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - He never did say why; no, sir. I was always under the impression that he was just tired of being over there and wanted to come back. We were trying to find out how in the world he got out with a Russian wife, and I asked him that question, and he told me that Immigration had loaned him the money, and he said that Marina's uncle had helped them to get out, and that he was a retired army general.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have the impression that he was, oh, never quite satisfied with anything when he was in Russia, that when he was over there, he didn't like it?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he didn't say that to me.
Mr. JENNER - All right, now you say that Marina then came to New Orleans after he had called and said that he had found a job; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she came with Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER - Did Mrs. Paine drive her?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; they came in Mrs. Paine's car. In fact, I think he got that apartment possibly on a Thursday.
Mr. JENNER - At 4905 Magazine Street?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; Thursday or Friday, or whatever it was.
Mr. JENNER - That was the ninth of September 1963; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - I guess that was the date.
Mr. JENNER - Did Lee move in on Monday?
Mrs. MURRET - No; Lee moved in right away, on Saturday. In fact, he moved in on the 10th, I think, or the 9th. Anyway after he got it, he moved in himself the next day, and then Marina came in on the Saturday.
Mr. JENNER - Well, Saturday was the seventh, Sunday was the eighth, and Monday was the ninth.
Mrs. MURRET - Of May?
Mr. JENNER - Oh, I am looking at September; I'm sorry. Now, let's see. The 9th of May was on a Thursday, and that's when he got the apartment, the 9th of May, and he moved in the next day; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right, and he came back to my house on that Saturday morning.
Mr. JENNER - That's the 11th?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and Marina and Mrs. Paine were coming in on Saturday, and they arrived there about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, around that time, and then he took all the things he had out in the garage over to the apartment.
Mr. JENNER - Were you present when he did that?
Mrs. MURRET - I went to see the apartment.
Mr. JENNER - But were you present when he took the things out of your garage?
Mrs. MURRET - You mean in the garage?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - No; I ,wasn't.
Mr. JENNER - You didn't get any better look at all the things that he had in the garage than you had that first day when your husband brought that stuff from the bus station and it was put in the corner of the garage?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't. I was busy on the inside of the house when he took all that stuff over to the apartment, because we were all anxious to see---not all, but Marilyn and myself, wanted to see the apartment, so inasmuch as we had to bring the things up there, he loaded the car.
Mr. JENNER - Your car?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; our car. Mr. Murret drove the car up there.
Mr. JENNER - Did you see them put the things in the car?
Mrs. MURRET - No; but they did put everything in the car.
Mr. JENNER - Did you see them do that?
Mrs. MURRET - No; but Mr. Murret helped. I knew he was doing that. He had to do that. I didn't do it. I just wanted to go over there that first day and see the apartment, so I was trying to finish up inside, and I just noticed that he was loading the car, and that's something else, the reason why Mr. Murret is considered just such a gentleman. No woman in his presence ever picks up a package or anything like that.
Mr. JENNER - A woman never picks up a package in the presence of your husband?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right, he always does it. So anyway, we brought Lee up to the apartment, and he was so happy about the place. He thought it was a most beautiful place, and we thought it was nice too, but after they got everything out of the car, we just left.
Mr. JENNER - Did you see them taking things out of the car and bringing them into the apartment?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; but we didn't help them.
Mr. JENNER - Was your husband helping to unload the car?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes; he was taking the things out himself.
Mr. JENNER - You saw him doing that?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes; they had a lot of locker space in that apartment, and Lee was putting everything in this one big locker, I think.
Mr. JENNER - Did your husband have any luggage?
Mrs. MURRET - Luggage?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I think he had some suitcases.
Mr. JENNER - He had some suitcases?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; they looked like Marina's suitcase, for one, because he didn't come into my house with any suitcase. Like I said, he just had that little bag with him. In fact, he only had maybe two pairs of socks and two T-shirts, and two pairs of pants, and nothing else.
Mr. JENNER - But you did see a suitcase or more than one suitcase in the garage; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - I think I did. I think he did have a suitcase in the garage, and maybe two; yes, sir. I seem to remember those.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have a ready recollection of that?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I do. I think, if I remember right, that I saw two suitcases there, and that they were very nice suitcases.
Mr. JENNER - Of ordinary size, would you say?
Mrs. MURRET - I think they were of ordinary size; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Regular suitcases with the handle in the center?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Would you say they were straight sided and oblong rather than square?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; just ordinary regular clothing suitcases.
Mr. JENNER - About 28 inches long?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - But you didn't see any long package?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER - By long, I mean something in the neighborhood of 45 inches long, or something like that.
Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't see anything like that. The only reason I noticed these suitcases was because my washing machine was in the garage, and I had to go out there to wash, to do my washing, and those suitcases were standing up, sitting right next to one another, and there were boxes, a bunch of stuff.
Mr. JENNER - There were two suitcases, as far as you know?
Mrs. MURRET - As far as I know; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Could there have been three?
Mrs. MURRET - There could have been. There could have been four; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER - But your immediate recollection is that there were two?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that's right. There were at least two suitcases.
Mr. JENNER - But you didn't notice any wrapped package, any brown butcher paper, or regular delicatessen store paper?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't see anything like that. Like I said, though, when they put his things in the car, I was inside the house.
Mr. JENNER - Did your boy do any hunting?
Mrs. MURRET - My boys?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, the boy that's in the seminary, he did a little duck hunting occasionally, but that's about all.
Mr. JENNER - Did your boys ever have shotguns or rifles around your house?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, they had a small rifle in my locker.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know what that rifle looked like?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; just an ordinary rifle. It wasn't an expensive rifle. It could have been just a plain shotgun, I guess. In fact, I think, if I can remember back, I think Gene, when he was duck hunting once, almost shot his hand off.
Mr. JENNER - But you don't remember seeing any package, any oblong package, out in the garage among those things that Lee had brought in there?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER - Would you have any conception of what a rifle would look like when it is disassembled, what the barrel separated from the stock looked like, and so forth?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I'm afraid I don't know anything about rifles.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, we are on the 11th of September, and Marina and Mrs. Paine have arrived at your home. Now, will you tell me about that?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, they arrived that afternoon. We brought Lee to the apartment that morning, and Lee stayed at the apartment and came back later during the day, and I said to Lee, "Well, suppose we go out and buy some eggs and have your refrigerator stocked," and he had said "Oh, don't worry about that; I will get all of that. I will have all of that in." In other words, you couldn't help him, so then he came over to the house, and I planned on having a lunch for Marina and Mrs. Paine, and they came on in with the baby, so there was Mrs. Paine with her two children, Mr. Murret, and I guess Marilyn was in the back getting ready to go out.
Mr. JENNER - Marilyn is your daughter?
Mrs. MURRET - Marilyn is my daughter; yes.
Mr. JENNER - She is a young lady who was here this morning with you?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, she was getting ready to go out. She had an appointment with someone, so they came in and when I saw the baby, I forgot who else was there. I said, "Well, she's darling," you know, and the baby began to cry and it cried and cried, and Marina took it to the kitchen and took care of her, and I think John was there.
Mr. JENNER - You mean your son John?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I think he was there.
Mr. JENNER - Had Lee arrived in the meantime?
Mrs. MURRET - Lee had arrived; oh, yes, he was there. So finally Lee said, "Well, let's go over to the apartment," and so they all got ready to leave, and Mr. Murret said he would lead the way because they didn't know the way. He said, "I will lead the way to this place," so that's the way they went over there. Mr. Murret, my husband, took Lee with him, I think that's right, and Mrs. Paine drove the others over in her car.
Mr. JENNER - From the time that Mrs. Paine drove off from your home, did you see Mrs. Paine any more?
Mrs. MURRET - No, sir; I never saw Mrs. Paine any more.
Mr. JENNER - How soon after that did you see Lee and Marina and the baby?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, you see, I don't drive myself, and I wanted them to come over, but they didn't have a car and they didn't want my husband to go and get them, so it was 2 weeks before I saw them again. But one Saturday morning about 2 weeks after they moved over there, Lee came over with Marina and the baby, which is a very long way they had to come by streetcar and bus, and it must have taken them a long time, because they were living up on Magazine Street, and that's a pretty long way out to my house. From Canal Street up to the 4900 block of Magazine Street, that's 49 blocks, and then from my house to Canal it must be 50 blocks.
Mr. JENNER - You mean it was 99 blocks distance from your house to their house?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - All right, go ahead.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, they made this trip by streetcar and bus, and we didn't even know they were coming, and they had the baby stroller and everything that belonged to the baby with them.
Mr. JENNER - This is Lee and Marina, now?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - That was 2 weeks later that they came out to your house?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and the baby. I was trying to make friends with the baby and the baby was crying. It looked like the poor child never saw anyone before in her life.
Mr. JENNER - You had this feeling, did you?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - You have reared some fine children, and you have grandchildren?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I take it you have a knack with babies and children?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you seemed to have trouble with Lee's baby, with this baby?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; naturally she had never seen me before, and she didn't speak the English language. Marina made her understand things in Russian, and so I took the baby outside with me to make friends with the baby and she kept crying, and Marina kept telling her to look at me, and after a while she made friends, you know, and so then Lee decided that they would go out.
I had a baby bed in the house which I have for all my children, and my daughter still uses the baby bed, so anyway, Marina and Lee wanted to go to the lakeside which isn't too far from my home.
Mr. JENNER - What is the lakeside?
Mrs. MURRET - Pontchartrain Lake. I guess that would be about 12 blocks from where I live.
Mr. JENNER - About a mile-and-a-half?
Mrs. MURRET - About that. They decided to go crabbing, and so they got a net and some crab bait, and the baby meantime went to sleep, so Lee left the baby with me in the crib, and they went out to the lake.
Mr. JENNER - How did they get out there?
Mrs. MURRET - Marilyn drove them.
Mr. JENNER - Your daughter Marilyn?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she drove them out to the lake.
Mr. JENNER - Did Lee know how to drive a car?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think he did. I never saw him drive a car.
Mr. JENNER - You have never seen Lee behind the wheel of a car, operating an automobile?
Mrs. MURRET - Never.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever hear that he did know how to drive an automobile, though?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't think he did, because when they went to New York, when he went with his mother, she drove. She always drove. I never knew him to drive.
Mr. JENNER - So anyway, Marilyn took them out to Pontchartrain Beach, and they went crabbing; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right; and they didn't get any crabs, so on the way back Marina was fussing at Lee in Russian, and Marilyn must have said, "Well, what is she saying?" you know, so Lee said, "Oh, she's just like a woman; she's no different. They are no different whether they come from Russia or France or some place in Louisiana. They are all alike. They don't appreciate what you do for them." Marina was telling him that it was so stupid for them to be taking these crab nets, spending $1, I guess it was, for everything, when he could have gone to the French Market and bought a dozen crabs for $1.25 or $1.50. She didn't see any sense in spending money and going out and not catching any crabs when you could go and buy them at the French Market. She missed the point where the boy liked to do that for pleasure. She thought it was a bum idea. She told Lee it would be better to just go and buy some crabs and not go through all that trouble, but anyway they came back home, and they stayed until about 10 o'clock. They ate s upper, and so forth, and the baby got a little friendlier. They played ball with the baby, and she came around a little bit, and I think Mr. Murret drove them home, and that was it.
When they left, we told them that at anytime when they wanted to come over again to let us know, and Mr. Murret would be glad to come and get them, but Lee said, "No, we don't mind coming on the bus," but then I don't think they came around for a while after that. In the meantime he must have lost his job at the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr. JENNER - How did you learn that?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he told me.
Mr. JENNER - How did he come to tell you that?
Mrs. MURRET - He called me and again he said they just didn't need another person on the job, that they had too many. That seemed to be the only excuse he gave for losing a job.
Mr. JENNER - That was what he told you?
Mrs. MURRET - Why he had lost his position?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. That's why he said he lost it in Texas. He asked me if he could use my telephone number, because he would be out looking for a job, and if anybody would call, then he could call every afternoon to find out if anyone called, and I could give him the message, so he had his name in at the Louisiana Employment Service.
Mr. JENNER - The Louisiana Employment Service?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is that State?
Mrs. MURRET - State employment, yes.
Mr. JENNER - All right; go ahead.
Mrs. MURRET - During that time he was getting State employment from Texas, from that job, when he first got here, because he got one of those checks when he was at my house, and then he was collecting State employment while he was off of this job here, when he got out of work, so he was probably collecting both checks at the same time. I don't think he ever found a job even though he supposedly was trying, after that one, I mean. He said he was looking for a darkroom.
Mr. JENNER - A what?
Mrs. MURRET - A photographer's job, or something like that, so he went down to a place in Metairie, but he had to drive a truck for that job, and he told me he couldn't take the job because he didn't know how to drive.
Mr. JENNER - He did tell you that?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - When was that?
Mrs. MURRET - That was when he was out looking for a job.
Mr. JENNER - He told you he couldn't drive then?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; he said he couldn't take that job because he would have to drive a truck.
Mr. JENNER - That would have been in the summer of 1963 now; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes; while he was here. I don't think he ever found any other job after that here.
Mr. JENNER - Do you know how long he stayed on this job at the coffee plant?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't. There's something else. Before he got this job at the coffee plant, I think he had Mr. Murret loan him $30, or maybe $40, to pay part of his house rent, but after he got that job at the coffee plant, he paid that back to Mr. Murret. I told him, "If you need anything, Lee, ask for it," because sometimes I felt guilty. I thought maybe when people like that need something, we should go ahead and get it for them, but then I told myself, "Well, no, since he is the type of person who is so independent," so I just stood back and waited to see if he could bring himself to come to me for something, because it was apparent that they needed a lot of things, him and Marina, but he never did, except for that loan he made from my husband to pay part of the house rent and the time he asked if we could put him up for a week while he looked for a job, but otherwise it seemed like he didn't want anybody to do anything for him. I did ask him several times if there was anything we could do for them, or get for t hem, and he would say, "No; we have everything," and then one time I offered him a spread, and he said, "No; we have everything," and the funny thing was that when they came that Saturday, he said to me, he said, "Marina says we will take that spread now; we don't have a spread," so Marina must have bawled him out for not taking the spread in the first place. I mean, she must have thought he ought to have accepted it. So they went home with the spread after all.
Mr. JENNER - This was when they first came?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. So then he would call in to find out if anybody had called from the employment agency. He had his names in at a private agency, besides the State employment, and he did get several calls and I gave him the message. One time I remember the man left his name, but I wouldn't remember that now.
Mr. JENNER - Might your husband remember that?
Mrs. MURRET - No. My husband was never around when all this was going on. My husband couldn't tell you anything, so then I went away. I went to Texas for 2 weeks. I left on July 1 and I returned on July 14.
Mr. JENNER - To visit your son?
Mrs. MURRET - No; my daughter, in Beaumont--Joyce. That was on July 1.
Mr. JENNER - Had Lee lost his job by that time?
Mrs. MURRET - He must have. I didn't know it, but he must have in between that time.
Mr. JENNER - While you were away, he lost his job?
Mrs. MURRET - It could have been in between that time; yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did he say anything to you about losing his job, that you recall?
Mrs. MURRET - No; it was a long time after that that he said anything to me about that.
Mr. JENNER - He didn't say anything to you for quite a while?
Mrs. MURRET - No; he didn't say anything to me about losing his job for a long time, so then Joyce came back. She had two adopted children.
Mr. JENNER - Joyce is your daughter, who lived in Beaumont?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. You see, Joyce can't have any children, so she adopted two children. One is 4 and one is 5, but she got them when they were a month old, and they really are adorable. Now, Joyce, hadn't seen Lee before, you see, or anything, and so then Lee and Marina came over one day while Joyce was at the house with the children. They had come at about 9 o'clock that morning, and stayed till 9 or 10 o'clock that night. I was exhausted trying to entertain Marina, you know, and not knowing how to speak Russian, or make any signs that she would understand, and so forth, but she liked the dinner, and she wanted to know how to cook some of the things that I had, and Lee wrote the recipes down on paper for her, and I asked them how she could tell to pick out cans when she went to the store if she couldn't read English, and Lee said she could tell by the pictures on the cans what she wants, but I don't think Lee liked too much variety in food, just certain things.
Mr. JENNER - Did you say anything to her at any time, or to Lee, about the fact that she wasn't speaking more English than she evidenced?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I asked Lee about that. I said, "Lee, how does Marina like America?" and he said to me, "Well, you can ask Marina yourself," so I said to Marina, "How do you like America?" and she said, "Oh, I like America!" She said, "I like it; I like it!" Now, we always did think it strange that Lee didn't seem to care whether Marina learned to speak English or not. He was always talking to her in Russian, and we didn't know what was going on, you see. I asked him, "Why don't you teach Marina more English?" but he didn't pick it up, so then--in August, I think it was, I was operated on for my ear, and during that time Joyce was home. They had been at the house before the operation. They knew I was going to be operated on, and he came up there to see me, which I thought was very nice.
Mr. JENNER - You mean Lee?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. I was at that time at the eye, ear, nose, and throat hospital, and he said, "How are you feeling?" and I said, "All right." He stayed just a couple of minutes really, and he seemed to be nervous--like, you know--and I thanked him for coming, and then he went off, so that night Joyce came back to the hospital again. That was a Thursday, I think, and I got out on a Saturday--that following Saturday, so Mr. Murret was not there for my operation. He wanted to stay, but he was supposed to go to a retreat at Manresa, and he missed last year, because he couldn't get off from work, so I said, "Well, don't miss it this year, because this isn't serious, and there are no after effects." I said, "Go on to the retreat, and it will be all right," so he went, and John, my son, was in town, and he came up, and of course Joyce couldn't do too much, because she had two children of her own to take care of, but anyway I had the operation, and Joyce was to come up and. get me on Saturday at about 11 o'clock, so then Lee called, and this was before Joyce left home to come up to the hospital, and he told Joyce that he was over at the Parish jail, or something, the one on Rampart over there, and he told her he wanted her to bring some money up and get him out, and she said, "Mother, I don't want to." She said she had been there twice with the money in her hand, and each time she came back out again. She told me, "I don't know what to do." I said, "Well, Joyce, I don't know what he's in there for; do you know?" and she told me that she had talked to this officer up there, and she asked him, "What's that kid in there for, before I bail him out?" She was going to give the money to this officer to get Lee out, but the man told her not to be foolish and give her money up like that, because she might not get it back. She said he told her, "Don't give up your cash because you may never get it back." He said, "Have somebody parole him." So Joyce didn't know what to do. She had been out of New Orleans a long time, so she didn't know wha t to do. This officer showed her the sign that they said Lee was carrying, and on it it had, "Viva El Castro," so when Joyce saw that, she said, "Oh, my God," she said, "I am not about to get him out of here if he's like that," so she didn't know what to do, but she didn't give up her money. She said, "Here he was supposed to be out looking for a job, and he was doing things like that, walking up and down Canal Street all day long with signs and everything."
This officer told her that he had told Lee, "If you want to carry these 'Fair Play for Cuba' signs around, you are going to have to rent yourself a hall, and have your meetings in the hall," and he said, "But you can't carry signs like that in the business district."
The officer said that what he was doing wasn't so bad, but Joyce thought it was terrible, you see, so Joyce came on out to the hospital. She didn't get him out of jail. She didn't give up her money. So when we got back home, it wasn't long until he called on the phone again, and the first thing he did was get kind of rude with Joyce. He wanted to know how come she hadn't gotten him out yet, and didn't she have the money, and she said, "No, I don't have any money." She said that she had just gotten her mother out of the hospital and used up the money, and she told him, "I don't have any money to get you out of there."
Also, Joyce had found out that he had been in there since Friday. You see, Joyce was under the impression that he had just gotten in jail, so Joyce asked him, "How long have you been in here?" and he said, "I don't know how long I have been in here," and Joyce said, "I know; you have been in here all night," and he said, "Well, just come and get me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I don't know; I'll have to think this thing over," and then she said, "I don't have any money," and then he said, "Well, I'll tell you what you do." He said, "I want you to go out to the apartment and see Marina, because Marina has $70.00 and you tell Marina to get that money and come and get me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I have to get mother into bed, and I have no one to keep my two children while I run up there," and he said, "Well, ask one of the neighbors to mind the children," so in the meantime Joyce told me what he had said, and I told her, "Well, I don't know. I don't like to exactly ask for favors from the neighbors like tha t," so she said she didn't know what to do, so we talked about it awhile, and then we decided to call this man that we knew, and we called him, and he told us what had happened, that Lee had had a fight with some Cubans, and everything, and we were still wondering what to do about Lee being in jail and everything when, a little while after that, he called back and said that everything was all right, that Lee was out.
Now, we didn't see Lee though. I guess he went on home. Then Mr. Murret came back from Manresa on Sunday evening, or Sunday night I believe it was, and when we told him about it, he was horrified, you know. He went right out to their apartment to talk to Lee, and he asked Lee in a fatherly way, what was he doing, you know, who he was connected with, and so forth, and whether he was with any Commie group, and Lee said no, he wasn't, and Mr. Murret told him, he said, "You be sure you show up at that courthouse for the trial," and Lee said, "Don't worry, I'll show up," and he told Lee, he said, "You ought to get out and find yourself a job." "You have a wife and child and one coming," and so forth, and then we didn't see Lee any more until Labor Day, I believe it was.
Lee called up that morning, and he said he and Marina wanted to come over that day and spend the day, and I said, not right away, but suppose they come over around 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, because I think I was busy that morning, or something, so they did. They came on the bus, and Mr. Murret happened to be passing by, and he picked them up and brought them to the house, and I asked them if they had had dinner, and they said yes, but I don't think they had. I told them I would go up to the store and get some rolls, and we could have some coffee and rolls, so I did, and I made coffee, and we sat down and ate the rolls, and to tell you the truth, I don't think they had eaten anything, because they ate up all the rolls.
I made hamburgers too that night, and they each ate two hamburgers. John was there too. After they finished eating, it was time to take them home, and John brought them home.
Mr. JENNER - In his car?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. I might say too that Mr. Murret talked to Lee quite a bit about him not trying to teach Marina how to speak the English language. He said, "Lee, we love Marina very much, but we feel very bad that we can't converse with Marina, because you speak to her all the time in Russian, and we don't know what is going on, and she doesn't know what is going on with us. Don't you think you should teach her the English language?" and Lee said, "No." Then he said, "I'll tell you right now, I will never teach it to her," and then he said, "I don't care if she wants to learn, but she is not going to learn from me." He said, "I am not going to teach her, because I don't want to lose my Russian," but he said he didn't object to her learning the English language, but at the same time he kept on talking in Russian to her.
I asked him, "Why do you want to keep up your Russian, Lee; do you intend to go back to Russia?" but something happened right then--somebody did something or other, and he never did answer that question, so that was all of that. So we brought them home. John brought them home in his car, but before he took them home, he drove them out and showed them the church that he was going to be married in, and he also took them up on Palmer Avenue and showed them the home where he was going to have the reception with his girl friend, at her house. It's a large home on Palmer Avenue, so he took them and showed them all of that, and then he took them home, and we didn't see them any more.
Mr. JENNER - Is that the last time you saw either one of them?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you have any contact with them by letter, telephone, postcard, or otherwise?
Mrs. MURRET - No, nothing. Then the next day or the day following that, two men came to the house from the FBI.
Mr. JENNER - That was Labor Day, was it?
Mrs. MURRET - No. Labor Day was the last day I saw them. This was a few days after Labor Day, I think.
Mr. JENNER - After Labor Day?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. They came to the house and knocked at the door, and I went to the door, and they didn't tell me who they were at first, but they approached me, and asked me, "Does a young couple live here?" and I said, "No; no young couple lives here, nor did any young couple ever live here," and then they asked me, "Do you know Lee Oswald?" and I said, "Yes, I do; he's my nephew," and he said, "Well, do you know where he lives?" and I said, "Well, yes, he lives in the 4900 block of Magazine Street. I don't know the number, but it's in the 4900 block," and then they told me who they were.
Mr. JENNER - That's when they told you they were FBI agents?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. Then the next day they came back, and they told me that a lady, a neighbor, or whoever they heard it from, said that a lady with a station wagon was there. I said, "Well, probably that's the same lady who brought Marina here from Texas, and took them back to Texas."
Mr. JENNER - This was the 20th of September, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, I think so, and that's the last I knew of them. I never heard anything else about them, but now, I skipped over something--in between that time he called one time, and he said Mrs. Paine was going up to see her relatives, I think, and that she was going to pass through New Orleans and visit with them, but he didn't say that they were leaving with her and going back to Texas, or anything like that. He just said Mrs. Paine was going to come through here and visit with them. He also said that Mrs. Paine knew a Tulane professor.
Mr. JENNER - A Tulane professor?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir; a Tulane professor. He could have been a language professor, I imagine, because I remember him saying that he had a daughter that was attending the university in Moscow, and they either went to his home or they came over to Lee's house. That I didn't get straight, and he showed slides, and so forth, on Russia, the way I understand it.
Mr. JENNER - Who showed the slides?
Mrs. MURRET - The professor, but I think Mrs. Paine was the one who knew the professor and all that.
Mr. JENNER - You say his daughter is in school in Moscow?
Mrs. MURRET - He is supposed to have a daughter in the university over there, yes, sir; or he did have. That was my understanding.
Mr. JENNER - In Moscow?
Mrs. MURRET - I think he said Moscow, but that's the last I heard from Lee Oswald and Marina.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, tell me one thing you left out?
Mrs. MURRET - What's that?
Mr. JENNER - The trip over to Mobile.
Mrs. MURRET - Oh. Well, that came in--I don't remember the date.
Mr. JENNER - Was it sometime in July or August of 1963, somewhere around there?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, Lee wasn't working about that time, and my son Gene was over in Mobile, and he hadn't seen Lee for a long time, and he had asked if we could bring Lee over so he could see him. Gene had graduated from Loyola and had went into the Service. He was in there for about 3 years, and when they were activated, they went into Germany and everything, and when he came back he entered law school and went to law school.
Mr. JENNER - At Loyola?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, for 3 years, and then he decided to become a Jesuit.
Mr. JENNER - A Jesuit priest?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. So he was over at Mobile by then, and naturally when I wrote to him I told him about Lee, and he said he would like very much to see Lee, and that he would like for Lee to come up there and bring Marina up and visit him, so we arranged to take Marina and Lee up to Mobile. We left on a Saturday around noon, and I believe Joyce was with us, and also her two children.
Mr. JENNER - How long were you gone on that trip?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, we came back that Sunday afternoon, or, we left there about 2 o'clock, I think it was.
Mr. JENNER - Had there been any discussion in advance about Lee giving a lecture or anything to the boys there at that school?
Mrs. MURRET - Not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER - What's the name of that school, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs. MURRET - What school is that?
Mr. JENNER - At Mobile?
Mrs. MURRET - Where Gene was?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - The Jesuit House of Study.
Mr. JENNER - The Jesuit House of Study at Mobile, Ala.?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, Mobile. So Gene asked us to bring Lee and Marina over, and, you see, they allow a speaker over there at that school so many times a year, and he said maybe Lee could speak on his experiences in Russia.
Mr. JENNER - Then there was a discussion in advance of Lee's going over there about his speaking, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Only that he might speak about his experiences in Russia is all. There wasn't anything else arranged that I know of, I don't think.
Mr. JENNER - Was this m a conversation between you and your son?
Mrs. MURRET - No, by letter that was.
Mr. JENNER - By letter?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes. We never would get to see Gene, you see, unless we would go over there. He wasn't supposed to call us on the phone or anything like that. But they do allow you to visit every so often.
Mr. JENNER - Is he allowed to call you by telephone if it's important and he gets permission?
Mrs. MURRET - No, he's not supposed to use the phone to call home.
Mr. JENNER - But he may write you?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, and then we visit so many times a year--I mean, we go up there, but that's all. Now, we call him, like on holidays and things like that. We are allowed to do that.
Mr. JENNER - But he can't call you?
Mrs. MURRET - No, he can't call us.
Mr. JENNER - Why is that?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, they just don't like it.
Mr. JENNER - Do they like you to call up there? In other words, do they mind if you call him?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't think they like it, but, like I said, on holidays or something we can do it.
Mr. JENNER - Was that one of the rules of the school authorities over there?
Mrs. MURRET - I guess so, because otherwise Gene would call us.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Now, tell me about your trip over there just what happened?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, when I saw Lee coming out of the house to get in the car, it was a hot day, and he had this flannel shirt on, and I said, "Oh, Lee, let me give you another shirt that won't be so uncomfortable," but be wouldn't accept another shirt. He kept the flannel shirt on, and that's the way he went over there. He didn't want me to get him another shirt. He just wouldn't accept favors from anybody. He was so independent. Well, anyway, we got over there, and that night we were going to meet.
Mr. JENNER - That's you and your husband?
Mrs. MURRET - And Joyce.
Mr. JENNER - Joyce, your daughter?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And her two children?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And Lee and Marina, and their child June?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, and Ron and Jill.
Mr. JENNER - And Ron and Jill?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, they are Joyce's children, and Mr. Murret paid all the expenses, including the motel rooms and the meals, and so forth. Now, when Lee and Marina came out from freshening up, they looked real nice. I was really surprised, especially at Marina. She had got herself all dressed up, and she looked like a different person, and he was very attentive too to Marina.
Mr. JENNER - Always?
Mrs. MURRET - Always. Now, what he did at home how he acted around her there, I don't know, but when he was in my presence he was very attentive to her and very well mannered. He would, I mean, open the car door for her, and so forth--very attentive. He would pull the chair out for her and things like that. He was very well mannered. I have to say that for him.
Mr. JENNER - What was her attitude toward him?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, she seemed the same way. They seemed to get along very nicely together, I thought, when they were here in New Orleans. They would take a ride out the French Market and buy some crabs and some shrimp and come home and boil and cook them. They got a big bang out of doing things like that.
Now, Marina was pregnant about that time, and we asked them if we could do anything for her in the way of getting some sort of treatment before the birth of the baby, but Marina didn't want any treatment. She said she didn't need any, and it seemed like Lee must have had her at Charity Hospital, I think at least one time, because he said they told him that when she was ready to have the child, to just come right on in.
Mr. JENNER - Was there any discussion of a rifle at any time in your presence?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - No discussion about anything like that by anybody?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever see a rifle around in the garage where this stuff was stored?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I never did.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever see a package out there that looked like it might contain a rifle?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I never did see one around there.
Mr. JENNER - You never saw anything that looked like a rifle or shotgun at all among his belongings that he had put in the garage in the corner?
Mrs. MURRET - No; but I didn't really pay too much attention to all that stuff. The only thing I remember him ever taking out of there was these boots and this hat.
Mr. JENNER - Did you attend this lecture that Lee gave over in Mobile?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, no; women couldn't attend.
Mr. JENNER - Was that on a Saturday night?
Mrs. MURRET - It was on a Saturday night; yes, sir, because we came back the next afternoon.
Mr. JENNER - It was just for the boys from the House of Study, is that your understanding?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right. No women were allowed, and during that time they had one of the boys there that spoke Russian, and he never got a chance to talk with the other boys in Russian, of course, so Gene told him that Marina was outside that night, so he came out, and he spoke with Marina in Russian, and so he and Marina had a very nice conversation about different things, and we walked up to the chapel, and he showed Marina the chapel, and so forth, and I don't know what he was saying to her, because they were both talking in Russian. So I don't know what all they were talking about. So then after they talked for a while, he left. Now, after the talk Lee gave at the meeting, I asked Gene, "Well, how was it?" and he said, "Well, it was all right."
Previous to that time, I had said to Lee---I knew that Lee was going to talk about being in Russia, so I said to Lee, "Maybe you had better map out some thoughts for your talk, just what you might be going to say, so you won't be too nervous," and he said, "Oh, don't worry about me; I give talks all the time."
Mr. JENNER - He said he gave talks all the time?
Mrs. MURRET - That's what he said. He said, "I'm used to that." He said, "I give talks all the time." I asked Marina later on one day if she would like to attend mass the next morning with me, and she said yes, she would, and she asked Lee about it, so they were talking it over in Russian, so I don't know what they were saying.
Mr. JENNER - Did she go with you to mass the next morning?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she did.
Mr. JENNER - Did she say she liked it, or what did she say?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; she said, "I like your church very much."
Mr. JENNER - Marina said that?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I said, "Marina, I'm sorry you don't live near me; we could go to church together," and I said to her, "I wish you would become a Catholic."
Mr. JENNER - Marina could converse to some extent in English, could she not? She could communicate with you to some extent, couldn't she?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I could make her understand most things, you know, about what I was talking about. Now, another thing, Lee didn't want the baby to be baptized.
Mr. JENNER - Who didn't?
Mrs. MURRET - Lee. He told me that the baby was baptized, but in the orthodox religion, and he wanted the baby to be baptized in the Lutheran religion. Marina wanted the baby to be baptized in the Orthodox Church, and she went ahead and did it, and I think that's something he probably resented--not the baptism itself but the church.
Mr. JENNER - Had this occurred before they came to New Orleans? Had the baby been baptized before that?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I think it was in Dallas or Fort Worth. I don't know which.
Mr. JENNER - Did any other incident arise that you can think of between Marina and Lee that might help the Commission in its investigation?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, his attitude was pretty bad about certain things, like the time he asked her to pass him the catsup. He just said, "Give me that," and she said, "Don't ask it in that manner," and he said, "Well, I'm the Commander around here," but of course I don't think he really meant that the way it sounded.
Mr. JENNER - You think that was just a passing remark, just a figure of speech?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; with no meaning. In fact, I didn't think anything about it.
Mr. JENNER - Do you think that Lee was arrogant?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't think that. I think with a lot of people, it depends on whether they like you or they don't like you, I mean, in the way they act toward you, and with Lee, most people would dislike him because of the fact that he was not a mixer and he did seem to be arrogant, I guess you would call it, but he wasn't. I think it all depends on whether you like a person like that. Me, I don't like a man who yap, yap, yaps all the time. Lee was a person who didn't feel that he ought to say anything unless it was important. Some people thought he had an arrogance about him, I suppose, from the way he carried himself the way he walked, but he just walked very straight all the time. That was his natural walk. Some people passed remarks about Lee's mouth, the way it looked, but that's the way his mouth was, and he couldn't help that, and after you knew him for a while, you didn't pay any attention to that.
Mr. JENNER - What was there about his mouth that you noticed particularly?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, it sort of set back a little bit--a little different from most people, but it really wasn't that bad. It just looked like he was holding his mouth that way, but he really wasn't. That just the way it was, but a lot of people didn't like him for it. Like that time he ran into this place on Magazine and asked the man there to let him look at television, and the man right away refused to let him, refused to let him turn on the television. He said who did he think he was, and things like that, and he thought Lee was a little smart aleck or something, I guess, but I took it the other way, that here's a kid that doesn't have a television set in his house, and he doesn't have anything to do, and he's alone, and he has come to me thinking I will be nice enough to turn on the television for him, and so I would do it. But I guess all people don't think alike about things like that. A lot of people take that sort of thing the wrong way, I think.
Mr. JENNER - Now, Mrs. Murret, there are some records from Beauregard School indicating either Beauregard or Easton, showing that his address was 809 French Street. Now, that was your old address, before they changed the numbering on your street, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER - I wonder if you would tell me how that came about, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, it came about--they only had one house in the 700 block, from Canal Boulevard----
Mr. JENNER - No; I don't mean that. I mean, how did it come about that Lee gave your home address as his address?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, well, they changed all the numbers in that block. We had been in the 800 block, but they changed it to the 700 block.
Mr. JENNER - I understand that, Mrs. Murret, but tell me, if you will, how it came about that Lee registered at either Beauregard School or Warren Easton as living at your address, at 809 French Street, which was your address?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, that was brought about when he first came back from New York with his mother, and they stayed at my house for 2 weeks, and that was when they registered him at Beauregard, because she didn't have a place yet, and she gave them my address. In fact, if she hadn't given them my address and given some other address in another district, he would have had to go to another school, and she wanted him to go to Beauregard School. It had a good reputation as a good school, and she said she would like to have him enrolled there.
Mr. JENNER - Tell me, how did Lee act when he came in from New York with his mother and lived at your home for those 2 weeks? What was his conduct generally, as you recall it?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he didn't act any different than any other child, I don't think. He was in school all day long, and he came home in the afternoon, and just sort of hung around inside, and he would eat supper and go to bed, and the same thing the next day. He didn't talk much. He never really did talk unless you said something to him.
Mr. JENNER - The same old pattern, would you say?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; but there are a lot of people that don't like to talk. It's just that some people are inclined to talk a lot, and others just aren't. You run across that every day.
Mr. JENNER - I agree with you on that. Do you recall an occasion or a situation in which Lee was a member of, or at least attended some activity of the Civil Air Patrol?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know anything about that other than my sister Marguerite told me that he was a friend of this boy at Beauregard, and that through him he had joined the Civil Air Patrol, and he had to have a uniform and so forth, but that's about all I know about it. They were living on Exchange Alley, or Exchange whatever that is, at the time.
Mr. JENNER - Exchange Place?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I think that's it, Exchange Place.
Mr. JENNER - Do you remember your son John giving Lee a white shirt and tie on one occasion?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; Lee was getting ready to go on this job, and John was in the back getting dressed to go to work, I think, and he didn't think Lee looked presentable. John is such a big boy, and he said it in such a nice way--he can do it, you know, but he asked Lee, he said, "Lee, here's a shirt; take it; it doesn't fit me. You put it on, and here's a nice tie to go with it." He said, "Come on, kid, you want to look good when you go for that job, you know," and so he gave the white shirt and the tie to Lee to go after the job, and Lee took them, and when his picture was taken for that "Fair Play for Cuba" business, he had that same shirt and tie on.
Mr. JENNER - He had the same shirt and tie on that your son John had given him when he had his picture taken on that occasion?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; the same white shirt and the tie. They belonged to John, and he had given them to Lee to go after a job. Now, John felt sorry for Lee in a way, and he was trying to help him. John was good that way around anybody who he felt sorry for, like one time he said, "Come on, Lee, let's go for a ride, and I'll let you drive the car," and I think he sat next to Lee and let Lee steer the car, or something, but I don't know anything about that. I don't think Lee ever did know how to drive a car. Maybe he did, but as far as I know, he didn't know how to drive.
Mr. JENNER - I believe you said during the course of this discussion that you thought Lee was left handed. What led you to say that?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, as a child, when he was a small child, I knew he ate with his left hand, and I always thought that he did things with his left hand. Now, whether he used both hands or not, I don't know, but he did use his left hand as a child. I remember that.
Mr. JENNER - In fact, children are often ambidextrous, aren't they?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - They eat with either hand, don't they?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; they do. I have known of cases where children have started out eating with their left hands, and they switch over as they grow older to their right hands, but then there are some children who never use their right hand, I don't think.
Mr. JENNER - This was an impression you had of him as a very small boy though, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever see Lee write left handed?
Mrs. MURRET - When?
Mr. JENNER - After he reached, say, high school age?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER - You never noticed it one way or the other?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER - When he was living with you during those 2 weeks, when they came back from New York, did you ever see him use his left hand?
Mrs. MURRET - I never noticed really.
Mr. JENNER - Your boys are all right handed, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - I remember you told me earlier today that Lee wanted to go out and play ball, and perhaps get on some team, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you gave him, you said, a glove that belonged to one of your boys, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Well, wasn't that glove for a right-handed player, if it belonged to one of your boys, and they were all right handed?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER - It was one of your boy's gloves, wasn't it?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Did you listen to the debate over the radio between Lee and the Cuban boy?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he called.
Mr. JENNER - Who, Lee?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; Lee called and said he was going to talk on the radio, so--we were getting supper ready, because it was supposed to come on about then, but we forgot about it until after it started, but then we turned it on and did hear some of it.
Mr. JENNER - You heard some of it?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Was there any discussion at any time about Lee's political views?
Mrs. MURRET - Not in my home.
Mr. JENNER - And not with you?
Mrs. MURRET - No; and I don't think with any other member of my family.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever observe Lee, as far as his manual dexterity was concerned, his coordination?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I never paid too much attention to that. I know he wasn't prepared to do anything in life.
Mr. JENNER - Was your son John attempting to teach him to drive an automobile? Did your son talk to you about that?
Mrs. MURRET - No ; he didn't say anything about that. I don't know what John had in mind. Anyway, they went riding, but they weren't gone too long, and then they came back.
Mr. JENNER - Would it have been as long as a couple of hours?
Mrs. MURRET - No; not a couple of hours; just a spin around.
Mr. JENNER - Did John report that, Lee could or could not drive? Did he say anything either way as to that?
Mrs. MURRET - You mean on that day?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, we always felt that Lee didn't know how to drive.
Mr. JENNER - As far as you know, he couldn't drive?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - Let's see if I have your family right now, if you will bear with me. You have a daughter, Mrs. Emile, and her given name is Joyce, and her husband's name is O'Brien, and they live at 1615 Fairway, Beaumont, Tex., is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Right.
Mr. JENNER - You have a son, Dr. Charles W. Murrett, a dentist, who has an office at 1207 West Bernard, Chalmette, La.; you have a son Gene, and that's spelled E-u-g-e-n-e. who is studying for the priesthood, and who lives at 3959 Loyola Avenue, Mobile, Ala., is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Right.
Mr. JENNER - Now, he has a desigation of S.J. What is that?
Mrs. MURRET - Society of Jesus.
Mr. JENNER - And he's the boy who attended law school, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And a fine student?
Mrs. MURRET - He certainly was.
Mr. JENNER - And he is unmarried?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, you can't be married and be a Jesuit.
Mr. JENNER - And your son John lives at 6622 Louis XIV, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Right.
Mr. JENNER - In New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And then your daughter Marilyn, she lives with you, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Right.
Mr. JENNER - She's unmarried?
Mrs. MURRET - Unmarried. She says you have to want to get married to get married.
Mr. JENNER - She doesn't want to get married?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right. She says that's not for her. Now, Charles didn't see Lee at all.
Mr. JENNER - Charles is your dentist son?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - But your daughter Marilyn did, and John did, and you have told us about Gene and your daughter Joyce they did, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And of course your husband?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Were you ever in their apartment on Magazine Street, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs. MURRET - Just that morning when we went there.
Mr. JENNER - That's the morning that they arrived, Mrs. Paine and Marina--arrived from Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. MURRET - Right. We took them home that night, and I was there then.
Mr. JENNER - Did Lee ever speak of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy or Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy?
Mrs. MURRET - He said one time that he thought Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy was a very fine person, and that he admired her for going around with her husband, and so forth, but he never spoke about that again, or never said anything about it. In fact, I think he said he liked him.
Mr. JENNER - Liked President Kennedy?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - What about Lee Oswald's habits? Was he a drinking man, for example?
Mrs. MURRET - I never knew of Lee to drink or smoke. In fact, when I read about, you know, after the assassination, about finding cigarettes there in that room, I was surprised, because I have never known of Lee to smoke. Now, Marina said he didn't want her to smoke. She said she had learned to smoke in Russia when other Americans had given her cigarettes, but that Lee didn't want her to smoke at all. We see nothing wrong in smoking, except that Lee just didn't want her to smoke. I see now where Dr. Ochsner doesn't want anybody to smoke. My boys don't smoke.
Mr. JENNER - As far as you know, did Lee ever live in a rooming house around here?
Mrs. MURRET - No.
Mr. JENNER - Did he have any communistic literature or Russian literature that you know of?
Mrs. MURRET - I didn't see any. All he showed me was pictures of Marina and the baby when he first came, and some of Marina's family, but that's about all.
Mr. JENNER - Did you ever hear Lee discuss anybody by name, like Jack Ruby, or Rubenstein?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I never did.
Mr. JENNER - No one else ever discussed him in your presence?
Mrs. MURRET - No. Lee only spoke when he was spoken to.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Murret, is there anything that occurs to you at the end of this long day, and I know you are tired, that I haven't brought out, either because I don't know about it or haven't thought of it, anything that you think might be of some assistance to the Commission in its work of investigating all the facts and circumstances involving the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mrs. MURRET - No; I wish I could think of something else, but I don't think I can. I can only say this. Lee appeared to be very kind to Marina, and I thought it was very nice of him to come up to the hospital to see me; and about my sister Marguerite, I could only tell you what she has already told in her life story, I guess, but I will say that I have never found her to tell an untruth. She's a woman with a lot of character and good morals, and I'm sure that what she was doing for her boys, she thought was the best at the time. Now, whether it was or not is something else, I guess.
Mr. JENNER - What was your impression of the morality of Lee Oswald during his lifetime?
Mrs. MURRET - His morality, as far as I know, was very good. That's what baffles me, being the type of boy he was, I just couldn't see how he could do anything like that, but it's hard to judge a person that way.
Mr. JENNER - During the years that you knew him, did he ever have fits of temper, that you thought were unusual?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he visited with me often, and he did a lot of things that I wondered about at the time, but there were times when I think he was just like any other person. It was just that he was always so quiet, and he was hard to get close to. He just wouldn't talk unless you would talk to him first, and, like I say, he was kind to Marina. Of course now, I don't know, what went on in their home, but he always treated her like a gentleman at our house.
Mr. JENNER - But you had no impression of him as being a violent person?
Mrs. MURRET - No; not at all.
Mr. JENNER - All right, Mrs. Murret. I very much appreciate your help. This has been a long and a hard day, and I know that you are tired. There is just one other thing now, Mrs. Murret. You have the privilege of reading your deposition and signing it, if you wish, but you also may waive that, in which case the reporter will go ahead and transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on to Washington. If you elect to read the deposition, then we would want to know that now, so that the U.S. attorney can call you and tell you when it is ready to be read and signed by you. Do you have any preference, one way or the other?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, I don't think so. I will just waive it.
Mr. JENNER - You want to waive the reading and signing of the deposition then?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - All right; thank you, Mrs. Murret