Testimony Of Michael R. Paine

The testimony of Michael R. Paine was taken at 2:30 p.m. on March 17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Wesley J. Liebeler and Norman Redlich, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PAINE - I do.
Mr. LIEBELER - We have asked you to come here so we can take your deposition to find out some of the background information that you have about Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of your knowing him throughout part of 1963, up to the time of the assassination.
We particularly want to ask you this afternoon about your knowledge of the possible possession by Lee Harvey Oswald of the weapon that was allegedly used to assassinate the President, or of any other weapon at the time while he had some of his effects stored as we understand it in your garage in Texas.
I also want to inquire of you this afternoon concerning your knowledge of Lee Oswald's financial affairs, whether you have lent him any money or whether he ever, he or his wife ever, obtained any money through you or your wife, and we will also ask you about other matters relating to the general subject of the assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
I want to go first, Mr. Paine, to the period September of 1963, but before I do that, will you state your name for the record.
Mr. PAINE - Michael Paine.
Mr. LIEBELER - What is your address?
Mr. PAINE - 2515 West Fifth, Irving, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER - By whom are you employed?
Mr. PAINE - Bell Helicopter.
Mr. LIEBELER - Where are they located?
Mr. PAINE - Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which that occurred?
Mr. PAINE - My wife invited Lee and his wife over to supper one evening.
Mr. LIEBELER - Will you tell us approximately when that was?
Mr. PAINE - I think it was in April.
Mr. LIEBELER - Of 1963?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I have depended upon my wife for all the dates. She has kept a calendar.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you discuss with your wife the, after the assassination the, approximate time when you first met the Oswalds?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, yes, we did. Or at least she had to .report that to other people and I was listening in but I have forgotten the dates.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did your wife meet the Oswalds at the same time?
Mr. PAINE - No; she met them at a party that was held at a friend's house and we were invited to, both of us were invited to, go meet this couple who were represented as he having been an American who had defected to Russia, and came back with a Russian wife. I think I was sick or something and for some reason I couldn't go so I didn't meet him at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell us approximately when that was?
Mr. PAINE - It would be much more sensible to get all the exact dates from my wife but I think that was in February.
Mr. LIEBELER - 1963?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, after you first met Oswald, and we will go into the conversation that you had with him when you met him and after that more in detail to him before the Commission, when was the next time that you met him?
Mr. PAINE - I don't think I met him again until he joined Marina at our house in September or the beginning of October, I guess it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you tell us briefly the circumstances surrounding the second meeting with Oswald?
Mr. PAINE - Well, Ruth had invited Marina to come and have her baby early in the summer when she knew that she was pregnant, to come have her baby, if she wished, at our house, where she would have the help of another woman who could speak Russian. Ruth stopped by from her visit on the east coast, stopped on her way back to Texas, stopped in New Orleans to see them, and found that Lee was out of work again, and picked up Marina at that time and brought her back to Dallas which was the end of September, and Marina then and her child stayed there and had another child, and stayed there until the assassination. And about a week later Marina was there for about a week before Lee called up, and I guess Lee came out.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you there when he came out?
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember. I would come normally, I was not living at the house at the time, and I would normally appear on, regularly on, Fridays, and generally some other day in the week, I think it was a Wednesday, Tuesday or Wednesday, for supper.
So I would have seen him if it was a Friday but I don't happen to recall the particular occasion. I think perhaps I wasn't there because I recall Ruth telling me how glad Marina was to see him or hear his voice on the telephone.

Mr. LIEBELER - You and your wife were separated at that time?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell us approximately when you were first separated?
Mr. PAINE - Oh, we have been living apart about a year, I suppose .
Mr. LIEBELER - At that time, you mean in October?
Mr. PAINE - It had been a year; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - So it would have been in October of 1962?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I guess it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you living in Grand Prairie?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - How often would you visit your wife during the period that you were separated particularly during the period of September-October?
Mr. PAINE - Well, as I say it was 2 nights a week, 2 evenings a week was a regular thing, and I would frequently come around weekends. The garage had been my shop, with my tools that I occasionally used and I would stop by on weekends, on Sunday anyways, Friday for sure, Sunday accidentally generally, I think, on a Tuesday or Wednesday.
Mr. LIEBELER - When you came to the house did you stay there overnight or did you just come----
Mr. PAINE - No; I would just stay for supper in the evening.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you were residing entirely, spending your evenings in your own apartment in Grand Prairie during this period of time?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you recall that your wife went on a trip to the eastern part of the United States in the fall of 1963, summer-fall of 1963?
Mr. PAINE - It was mostly the summer. She went about July and she spent a couple of months, the end of July, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know approximately when she got back to Irving?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I think she came by around September 24 is the date, I don't remember whether that was the date she arrived in New Orleans or the date she arrived at Irving.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, after she did return to Irving, and as you said brought Marina and the child with her, do you recall whether she also brought Oswald's personal and household effects?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I do remember she asked me to unpack or take some of the heavy things out of the car. I think that was only dufflebags but whatever it was it was so easy, I didn't really notice what it was to take out.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was shortly after she returned from her trip?
Mr. PAINE - That would suggest either the same day or the next day.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now----
Mr. PAINE - Go ahead.
Mr. LIEBELER - Go ahead.
Mr. PAINE - I was thinking it would be much better to get, if it is important at all, to, she probably remembers these dates exactly and we could judge that I would be there. It happened the 24th was a Friday. If that was the date she got back, then I would know that I arrived the date they came back.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, did you ever have occasion to go into the garage toward the end of September after your wife had returned for any reason?
Mr. PAINE - Yes. As I say that was, I still had a number of things there, and the tools were there.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you used the tools from time to time?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - During the time that you used the tools, did you ever see a package wrapped in a blanket lying in the garage?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; that is one of the clearest things in my mind. I had had to move that. The garage is rather crowded especially with their things in it. It had degenerated from a shop into a storage place and in order to use the tools at all I would have to move things out of the way, and one of the packages was this blanket wrapped with a string and I had had to move it several times. I knew it belonged to the Oswalds. I am polite so I don't look into a package or even I wouldn't look into a letter if it were in an envelope which was unsealed. But I picked up this package and the first time I picked it up I thought it was a camping equipment and thought to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron any more, and at another time I think I picked it up at least twice or three times, and one time I had to put it on the floor, and there was a--I was a little ashamed because I didn't know what I was putting on the floor and I was going to get it covered with sawdust but I again supposed that it was camping equipment that wouldn't be injured by it, being on the floor. I supposed it was camping equipment because it was wrapped in this greenish rustic blanket and that was the reason I thought it was a rustic thing.
I had also going a little further thought what kind of camping equipment has something this way and one going off 45b0, a short stub like that. Then there was also a certain wideness at one end and then I thought of a folding tool I had in the Army, a folding shovel and I was trying to think how a folding shovel fit with the rest of this because that wasn't quite, the folding shovel was too symmetrical. That was as far as my thinking went on the subject but at one time or another those various thoughts would occur before I got to using the tools myself.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever think there were tent poles in the package?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I supposed they were tent poles, I first thought it was tent poles and then I thought there are not enough poles here, enough to make a tent. I didn't think very elaborately about it but just kind of in the back of my mind before I got on to the next thing I visualized a pipe or possibly two, and with something coming off, that must come off kind of abruptly a few inches at 45b0 angle. I can draw you a picture of the thing as I had it. You know I wasn't thinking of a rifle. Definitely that thought never occurred to me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you draw us a picture for it and I hand you a yellow pad and let me get you a pen. Would you draw a picture for us of what you visualized to be in the package?
Mr. PAINE - Also this was--I visualized after I put the package down. I would lift the package up, move it, put the package down and one time I was trying to puzzle how you could make camping equipment out of something--this is only one pipe in the package. That is the only thing. Then a little shovel which I am speaking is an Army shovel which looks something like so, and it has a folding handle on it.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you have drawn on this piece of paper two different pictures, one of which you indicate as the shovel.
Mr. PAINE - I was trying to put these in the package to make something that I thought was a pipe about 30 inches long. Of course; that actual package as I visualized it--that is the outline, that is how it lay in the package.
Mr. LIEBELER - You have drawn a dotted line, outline around his first picture that you drew which you indicated you thought, you conceived of as an iron pipe of some sort.
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you mark this. I hand this to the reporter and ask him to mark this as Exhibit 1.

(The drawing was marked "Michael Paine Exhibit No. 1".)

Mr. LIEBELER - When you moved this package around, did it appear to you that there was more than one object inside of it or did it appear to be a solid piece or just what was your feeling?
Mr. PAINE - I didn't think. It remained in the package--nothing jelled. I think I thought about it more than once because my thoughts didn't hold together enough.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did it rattle at all when you moved it?
Mr. PAINE - No; it didn't rattle.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now----
Mr. PAINE - I kind of rejected the shovel idea because that was not, that was two symmetrical.
Mr. LIEBELER - What was too symmetrical?
Mr. PAINE - The shovel the shaft and the blade of the shovel are symmetrical, the shaft is on the center line of the shovel and here this wider area had to be offset somehow.
Mr. LIEBELER - You said you thought it was about 30 inches long?
Mr. PAINE - No; I am just telling you, I picked up a package which I first thought camping equipment, heavy iron pipes, and then I tried, then later, maybe when I had left. I tried to think, well, what kind of camping equipment has that little stub on it that goes off at an angle or asymmetric like that, and the flat end down there and I tried to put a shovel in there to fill out the bag, and with the camping equipment, to the shape of the thing.

I never--I didn't put these in words, they were just kind of thoughts in the back part of my mind. I wasn't particularly curious about it. I just had to move this object and I think I have told you about the full extent of my thinking.
Mr. LIEBELER - How long would you estimate the package to be?
Mr. PAINE - The package was about that long. That is 40 inches long.
Mr. LIEBELER - Let's get a ruler and have you indicate. Would you indicate Mr. Paine, on the edge of the desk here approximately how long you think the package was and then I will measure what you have indicated.
Mr. PAINE - I guess about that. That is including the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER - The witness has indicated a length of 37 1/2 inches.
Mr. PAINE - You had two twelves. All right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, you say that was including the blanket, what do you mean by that?
Mr. PAINE - Well, the blanket was wrapped around the end of it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was it wrapped tightly?
Mr. PAINE - Pretty snug.
Mr. LIEBELER - When you moved it did you have the impression that there might have been any paper inside of it?
Mr. PAINE - No; I would have said no; I didn't have that impression. Nothing crinkled, no sound.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you moved it several times?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there any indication by a crinkling or otherwise that there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket?
Mr. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, you said before that you had thought that they didn't make camping equipment out of iron anymore. What do you mean by that?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I had had camping equipment, of course, camping equipment we had was a tent with iron pipes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What prompted you to think of that thought in connection with this particular package?
Mr. PAINE - I suppose it was the--I had a .22 when I was a kid.
Mr. LIEBELER - A .22 caliber rifle?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I had two of them. I kept that in better condition, I mean, this was a rustic looking blanket, it looked as though it had been kicked around. It was dusty, and it seemed to me it was wrapped with a twine or something tied up with a twine. So I thought of, it looked to me like the kind of blanket I had used for a bed roll on the ground.
I suppose that is the thought that started me thinking in the line of camping equipment. And then I suppose I must have felt, I felt a pipe, at least, and maybe some sense of there being more than one pipe but I drew that picture that I drew, I didn't sense that there being another pipe I didn't put it in because I never did place another pipe around it.
Mr. LIEBELER - You never placed another pipe----
Mr. PAINE - I had the idea there might have been more than one pipe here or I didn't know where the other pipe might be.
Mr. LIEBELER - At the time you picked it up, at any time that you picked it up, did you have the idea that there might be more than two pipes inside the package.
Mr. PAINE - Well, I would never have mentioned camping equipment, you see, without, you can't make anything without more than one pipe.
Mr. LIEBELER - Think of the configuration of the package or of the way it acted when you moved it, was there any indication in that sense that there was more than one pipe inside.
Mr. PAINE - No; I think it was a homogenous, that is to say it didn't move one part with respect to another.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was it tied tightly?
Mr. PAINE - It was tied quite firmly. It seemed to me the blanket was wrapped double or something that the blanket itself would have made two pipes trying to hold still in the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER - How wide was the package?
Mr. PAINE - Well, apparently, it was lopsided because I remember not being able to fit the shovel in it, but if you are to draw that outline or something, I think that would go around the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you want to draw something additional here?
Mr. PAINE - It was smaller at this end. It was smaller at this one end and that was generally the end that I carried in my right hand.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you mark the area on the drawing that you are indicating, mark it with an "A" on the drawing. And you indicate that it was smaller at the end marked "A" than at the other end or it was not as wide?

Mr. PAINE - I can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because I could grab my hand around the paper whereas this end, I think was folded over.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say that the blanket, you think the blanket was folded over at the other end opposite from "A"?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I don't know, there were two separate different thoughts at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now you have drawn a solid line completely around the first drawing that you made on No. 1?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I don't think I made this one, my solid line should be much longer. It should have gone out there. I will scratch it out.
Mr. LIEBELER - Okay. The witness is scratching out the first line at end "B" and drawing in another line.
Mr. PAINE - This is the widest dimension here, and I was indicating, between 7 and 8 inches.
Mr. LIEBELER - Mark that "C".
Mr. PAINE - All right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now the witness has stated that the dimension marked "C" on the drawing was approximately 7 or 8 inches. Would you mark a "B" at the end opposite from "A" on the drawing so we can keep the record straight as to what we have been talking about?
Mr. PAINE - [Marking.]
Mr. LIEBELER - We have now gotten two dimensions roughly of the package, the length and the height.
Mr. PAINE - My hand went around it pretty well, It didn't close around it but it went around it to the grabbing of the fashion where the pipe went actually through my fingers and thumb.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did your hand actually close around it?
Mr. PAINE - It did not close around it. At the other end I grabbed it when I picked it up, grabbing it, I will draw my fingers here. This is the thumb.
Mr. LIEBELER - The witness has sketched-----
Mr. PAINE - In that fashion there. That was, say, 2 inches thick with the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER - Witness has drawn at the end marked "'B" his hand indicating how he picked it up and said that at that end it was about 2 inches thick, including the blanket.
When you grabbed it at that end could you tell whether the blanket was wrapped tight up around the object that was inside or whether it was just a fold of the blanket at that end?
Mr. PAINE - I thought it was, my impression was that it was all tightly wrapped and that the blanket had strings around it--I can't recall exactly but it was tied with strings, I don't remember where the strings were and I thought the fold of in the blanket came up along here somewhere. I thought it was wrapped, the blanket was folded over.
Mr. LIEBELER - In other words, your testimony is that at end "B"?
Mr. PAINE - But my memory there is so feeble, so uncertain. I remember this measurement of the pipe because I pictured that in my mind at the time so I was thinking about that.
I was trying to fit the shovel in and I remember saying that is too asymmetric. My impression was I would have said that there would have been a fold over it. I have read since that Marina looked in the end of this package and saw the butt end of a rifle Now I didn't remember that it was something easy to look into like that. I though it was well wrapped up.
Mr. LIEBELER - In the testimony you have just given you have indicated that the blanket was folded over the end of the object marked "B" on our drawing.
Would you indicate approximately by a line which I will ask you to mark "D" how far the blanket came up on the object itself, after it was folded over, the "B" end, can you do that for us?
Mr. PAINE - This is totally unreliable as a memory. It was only based on an impression that I thought it was well wrapped, in other words, dirt wouldn't be sifting into the inside of the package. I put it under the saw, right below where the saw sifts the sawdust out so I was concerned not getting these things dirty. So I will draw a line here.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, in the drawing you have made for us you have indicated this object inside the package, you have drawn an object and a package, and on your drawing the object ends before the end of the package does, the steel pipe that you have drawn.
What impression did you have of what was in the rest of the package?
Mr. PAINE - I must have drawn my outline incorrectly. The line of this pipe here shown didn't--the package, I must draw another package then. The package must have sloped.
Mr. LIEBELER - Well, do you remember how it was?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't remember the shape of the package. It was a blanket, I mean it was a--- reconstruct the blanket or something but this is not a continuous pipe because it was loose, it was stuck through the outline of the package, then I drew the package wrong then. I didn't think of it all at one time, you know, I just had these individual separate thoughts of trying to fit an object or objects that came to my mind into this package.
Mr. LIEBELER - Your testimony is then that instead of drawing a new package you think the object you have drawn inside the package should have gone right to the end of the blanket?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; that 30 inches of pipe would have come close to the edge of the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER - Let me show you a----
Mr. PAINE - But here, you see there may have been another pipe alongside of it, I didn't particularly arrange it.
Mr. LIEBELER - I show you a blanket which has been previously marked as Commission Exhibit 140, and ask you if that is the blanket that you saw in the garage?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I think it looks cleaner than it was, than it struck me then. And I may have said that it had more colors in it but that is the mood of the colors there.
I think I would have--I can't absolutely identify this blanket. But green and brown, it may have also had blue spots in it or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you say that this is not the blanket that was in the garage? Take your time and examine it as closely as you want to, do anything you want to with it.
Mr. PAINE - I would guess that--it looks a little, in here it looks cleaner than I remember but otherwise it looks--the light isn't very good in there and I always moved it around in the dark, I mean in the night time. I had an impression that it was, it was somewhat more mottling of the colors in it, that is to say, I can't identify this absolutely.
It is a very good substitute for it, a good resemblance or good candidate for, my memory of the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, there were lights in the garage, were there not?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you would have them on when you were working in there?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You said at one point you stored the blanket under your saw?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You had lights near your saw, didn't you?
Mr. PAINE - It is very dark there. There is a light on the saw but that shines on the table.
Mr. LIEBELER - There is no light directly over the saw?
Mr. PAINE - No; there is one light in the garage out in the middle of the room.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you say that at any time that you moved the blanket around in the garage that you would have had enough light to determine the colors of the blanket?
Mr. PAINE - The green and the brown, those colors were in that blanket. I had thought there was, it was dirtier, and I would have put blue spots with it, something like that to make it fully come up to the impression I had of the blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER - And those blue spots would have been a part of the pattern of the blanket?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember whether the design of this blanket, Commission Exhibit 148, is approximately the same as the design on the blanket which you saw in your garage or was it different?
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember the design of the blanket I saw in the garage. I think somewhat, I didn't, if I had been the least bit curious I could have at least felt of this blanket but I was aware of personal privacy, so I don't investigate something.
Now what comes to my hand from touching the thing unavoidably I am free to think about, but I think I was aware of not looking through his belongings, the moral dictate. I know I was aware of that, I remember. I remember that feeling.
Mr. LIEBELER - What about the texture of this blanket, does it seem like the blanket?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; that is a good----
Mr. LIEBELER - It is similar?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - This blanket we have here is sewn around the edges with brown thread, is it not?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Around some of the edges at any rate?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you recall seeing anything like that on the blanket that was in the garage?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't know, but I didn't look at it that closely.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, a part of that exhibit is a piece of string. When I unfolded the blanket, Commission Exhibit 140, a piece of string was found to be present, and I would like to ask the reporter to mark it as the next exhibit on this deposition.

(The string referred to was marked Michael Paine Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. LIEBELER - I ask you, Mr. Paine, whether that piece of string which has been marked as Exhibit 2 on this deposition is similar to or different from the string that was used to tie this package up when you saw it in the garage, if you remember?
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember exactly. I think this is a very good candidate again. I remember thinking it was wrapped in a twine, by which I meant it was not wrapped in a cotton, tight wound expensive cotton, string. I didn't think it was wrapped, didn't have in mind the manila type or sisal type. This is the right strength. I can't actually remember whether it was or not.
Mr. LIEBELER - It appears to be similar?
Mr. PAINE - That is about as good as could come to my memory.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there just one string wrapped on the blanket?
Mr. PAINE - No; I think it was wrapped at both ends.
Mr. LIEBELER - With two strings?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Well now this blanket has a pin in one end. I call your attention to that, the blanket which is Commission Exhibit 140. Did you notice that pin?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Present in the blanket at the time it was in your garage?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't think I do.
Mr. LIEBELER - I am going to lay the blanket out here on the conference table and I am going to produce Commission Exhibit 139 which is the rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, and I will ask you if you can construct out of these materials that we have here this rifle, and the blanket and the string something that resembles or duplicates the package that you saw in your garage?
Mr. PAINE - It seemed to me this end up here was not as bulky as the whole----
Mr. REDLICH - By "this end" what do you mean?
Mr. PAINE - "A", I have drawn as "A", was not as bulky as if I had wrapped it and pulled the blanket over.
Mr. LIEBELER - You are having difficulty in making it as small as when you remember it in the garage?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - We want you just to continue to work with it and take your time because we want you to be able to satisfy yourself to the fullest extent possible, on this question, one way or the other.
Mr. PAINE - It is getting fairly close but I don't know what he did with this end. This way of wrapping it seems to combine the functions. I also had a notion that it was somehow folded over but it seems too thick to do it that way.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, you have wrapped the rifle in the blanket. I will ask you if this appears to be, this wrapped package appears to be similar to the one you saw in your garage?
Mr. PAINE - I should say quite big enough here.
Mr. LIEBELER - When you say this end, you are referring to the end marked "B" on the drawing, which in the package is the end, the butt end of the rifle, isn't that right?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say that end is too thick.
Mr. PAINE - As I have it wrapped.
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; and you say in the center of the package in which we have the rifle wrapped you say that is not thick enough. But by thick enough do you mean the width or the actual thickness of the package?
Mr. PAINE - I thought of the package pretty much as all of the same thickness, calling the width from type calling the rifle and the scope of the rifle the width.
Mr. LIEBELER - The width?
Mr. PAINE - The width across the belt, the direction of the bolt as the thickness. So I thought of it as a more or less constant thickness of the package and not quite so--I would have to wrap it in some manner to move some of this bulk up into here, but I don't want to do it so much that I can't grab that feel of pipe.
That feels, it is quite a lot like it and there could almost have been two pipes there.
Mr. LIEBELER - When you say it is quite a lot like it you grasped the "A" end rifle or the muzzle of the rifle, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Are we saying now that its thickness is not as you remember the package in your garage or the same width?
Mr. PAINE - Well, most likely this end down here is perhaps, the butt end of the rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER - The "B" end?
Mr. PAINE - As I have it wrapped is a little bit too full.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you think that appears to be thicker----
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Than the package that was in your garage?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And as far as the middle is concerned, you say that is what, not as thick nor not as wide?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; somehow it should be a little wider, or a little fuller.
Mr. LIEBELER - It was a package which wasn't quite so tapering?
Mr. PAINE - Quite so tapered.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is that approximately the length of the package that you remember in your garage?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I think that is good, I grabbed it in some way or another, I don't know what he did with this end.
Mr. LIEBELER - Referring to the "A"?
Mr. PAINE - There was a string, there were two strings on it.
Mr. LIEBELER - When you estimated the length of the package before, would you have estimated it with the flap of the blanket that is now on the "A" end folded over or extended a little bit as it happens to be in this particular package?
Mr. PAINE - I don't think it was--I think the package is still all right if you fold it over, and I would not, the length I was estimating was the kind of length that I would grab there.
Mr. LIEBELER - So you think that the length would be more appropriate if you folded this flap over here at "A"?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you measure the length of that package and tell us what it is?
Mr. PAINE - That is 41 inches.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, after going through the process that we have gone through here, of trying to wrap this rifle in this blanket, do you think that the package that you saw in your garage could have been a package containing a rifle similar to the one we have here?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I think so. This has the right weight and solidness.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did you estimate, did you ever estimate, the weight of that package?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't think I did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever tell the FBI approximately how much you thought it weighed?
Mr. PAINE - Oh, I may have said 7 or 8 pounds. But that was all after the fact. I mean I didn't do it at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever discuss with the FBI the question of whether or not the object in the package that you saw, let's assume for the moment that it was a rifle, did you ever discuss with the FBI whether the rifle could have had a telescopic sight mounted on it or not?
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember whether I discussed that with the FBI. I haven't thought much about it. I didn't feel in the area of the package where the sight is. In my memory of the tubes, I did picture too more than one tube.
Mr. LIEBELER - You did picture more than one tube----
Mr. PAINE - I didn't picture it anywhere. I assumed there was going to be there was more than one tube. I hadn't placed it in any picture therefore that it was----
Mr. LIEBELER - When you say----
Mr. PAINE - I think I assumed that, I think, because this line along the top of the package was not straight enough to be the tube I have drawn there. I should say, in other words, either the bulk of the package as well as the out in the middle or there could have been a sight there.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to have been used to assassinate the President?
Mr. PAINE - They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you able to?
Mr. PAINE - I identified the place by the fine clapboard structure of the house.
Mr. LIEBELER - By the what?
Mr. PAINE - By the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually small clapboard.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did you identify the place as being?
Mr. PAINE - The Neely Street address. He didn't drive a car, so to have them over for dinner I had to go over and pick them up.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever tell the FBI that at first you felt if the object was a gun in the package it did not have a scope on it, but after seeing pictures of the gun and noting the small size of the scope on the weapon used to assassinate the President that the object you lifted could have been a rifle with the scope mounted on it?
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember saying that; no.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember being interviewed by FBI agents Odum and Peggs on November 24, 1963?
Mr. PAINE - Well, of course, I have seen Bob Odum frequently, Peggs is an unfamiliar name. It doesn't mean he couldn't have been there. That night I mostly went into the police station, spent much of it at the police station.
Mr. LIEBELER - On November 24?
Mr. PAINE - Is that a Sunday night or Monday?
Mr. LIEBELER - Sunday, the 24th would be a Sunday.
Mr. PAINE - I am too confused. Maybe it was on the next night that I spent at the police station.
Mr. LIEBELER - Well, let's go back and tell us about as best as you can recall how many times did the FBI interview you starting with the day of the assassination, the 22d of November. Did the FBI interview you on that day?

Mr. PAINE - There was someone at the police station, first the police took us to the station and asked us questions and we filled out an affidavit right in there.
Mr. LIEBELER - That is the Dallas Police Station?
Mr. PAINE - The Dallas police, and after they were finished someone from the FBI, I believe, asked me some questions. It was almost as though he had no--by leave of the police that he could do this.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember the name of that agent?
Mr. PAINE - Now, I don't believe I met, I was introduced to, Odum prior to the 22d. I do not remember that man, and it is possible that--I don't think it was Odum, but I wouldn't recall that out and I do not remember the name of that man. I don't know what he looks like.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you interviewed by the FBI on Saturday, November 23?
Mr. PAINE - I am not going to be able to remember when I was interviewed without being able to have something to hang it on. There were news reporters. First the news reporters were more in evidence, and then the police came out again, and both of them stick in my mind more because they are more objectionable. I mean there is more----
Mr. LIEBELER - Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name of Richard E. Harrison as an FBI agent who interviewed you on November 22, 1963, at the Dallas police station?
Mr. PAINE - No. I don't remember the name.
Mr. LIEBELER - Reconstruct for us the events of Saturday, November 23 as best you can. And perhaps I can help you if I ask you first, did you stay in your apartment in Grand Prairie the night of the assassination, the night of the 22d?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't think so. No, we had a late supper there, Life reporters , were there, and-----
Mr. LIEBELER - At Irving?
Mr. PAINE - At Irving, and then they came again early next morning and I was there with the family in the morning so I must have been there at night.
Mr. LIEBELER - And the Life reporters came on Saturday morning again?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - The 23d. What happened, how long did they stay and what happened after they left?
Mr. PAINE - Well, they left quite early, I think, it might have been 9 o'clock, relatively speaking, 9 or 9:30, talking to Marina Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did you do after they left?
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember. I think I went over to the Irving apartment, I mean the Grand Prairie apartment, at some time during the day, I don't remember what for. I had in mind, there was something I was trying to do, I can't remember now what it was, I mean something I would have been doing on the weekend. So, between, let's say, they left at 9:30, and about 5 o'clock, I don't remember what happened.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you go to your place of business at any time, to the Bell Helicopter plant on that day?
Mr. PAINE - Well, my apartment was close by it. I think somebody has asked me this question before and I think at the time I said no, and I don't remember now, that is my closest memory to that occasion.
Mr. LIEBELER - Your recollection is that you did not go to the helicopter plant?
Mr. PAINE - My recollection now is now fuzzier than ever but I recall previously I thought about it and I said, no.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you go to the police station in Dallas on Saturday?
Mr. PAINE - Yes. I recall the FBI came, not the FBI, the Dallas police came and took me in their car. We went back via Grand Prairie which was out of the way and the sun was about setting so that was about 5:30.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you come back to Irving after you left the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, probably 8 or 9 at night.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you stay at Irving that evening?
Mr. PAINE - I think I probably stayed Saturday evening and went back, spent Sunday evening in Grand Prairie so I could get to work easily the next morning.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember talking to your wife on the telephone on Saturday, November 23?
Mr. PAINE - I may have called her from the police station or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - I am going to unwrap the package with the rifle which was wrapped in the blanket, and I want to ask you if you had ever seen this rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, before?
Mr. PAINE - Not to my--the first time I saw a rifle, I didn't realize that he had a rifle. I thought, I knew he liked rifles because he spoke fondly of them in the Soviet Union although he regretted that he couldn't own a rifle, and I supposed that he still didn't have one so I didn't see a rifle until the night of the 22d when Marina was shown a rifle in an adjoining cubicle glass between us.
Mr. LIEBELER - You observed through the glass a rifle being shown to Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you hear any of the questions being asked her at that time?
Mr. PAINE - No; I couldn't hear.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did your wife see this rifle being shown to Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE - She was in the room with her.
Mr. LIEBELER - She was in the room with Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, after Marina Oswald was shown this rifle, did your wife tell you anything about the questions that were asked of Marina Oswald at that time?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; she said Marina couldn't, wasn't able to, identify the rifle. I can't remember now whether she said she knew it was a rifle because she had looked in and seen the butt end of a rifle but didn't--I think this is what she said at the time but----
Mr. LIEBELER - This is what----
Mr. PAINE - I will say it again. I think Ruth reported at that time or this is a recollection I have of a report that Ruth made and I think it was at that time, that Marina said she couldn't identify this rifle. She knew that Oswald had a rifle, and she knew that it was in a package wrapped in the blanket in the garage, but that she had only seen it accidentally when she had discovered what it was accidentally when she had looked in the corner of the package and saw the butt end of a rifle but she didn't like rifles, made her nervous or something to that effect so she didn't look at the whole rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Ruth tell you anything that Marina Oswald said about the presence or absence of a telescopic sight on the rifle at that interview with the Dallas police?
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember anything that she my have said about that.
Mr. LIEBELER - But you are quite clear that your wife told you that Marina had said that she could not identify the rifle that was shown to her as being the rifle that was owned by Oswald?
Mr. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, I want to draw your attention specifically to a sling or a device that serves the purpose of sling on this rifle, which is Commission Exhibit 139, and ask you if you have ever seen anything like that before?
Mr. PAINE - I am taking your question to mean did I see it on the rifle, a sling on the rifle I saw that was shown to Marina? I don't think I can truthfully remember.
Mr. LIEBELER - I also want you to consider whether you have ever seen a device----
Mr. PAINE - No; I have never seen a sling built like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you ever seen any device that looks like this at all whether it was designed for a rifle or for any other purpose? Do you have any idea what this might be?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't recognize it. I have never seen it.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't remember ever having seen anything like this around your own house or garage in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, we have here the parts of a rifle which is similar to the Commission Exhibit 139, and I will lay these on the blanket, and I will ask the reporter to indicate on the record that the counterpart rifle has been identified by FBI No. C-250. I want to ask you, Mr. Paine, to try to wrap this in the package, the broken down rifle and see if that works out any better or any worse than the attempt we made to wrap the complete rifle.
Mr. PAINE - I guess all that happened was I lifted up the thing in the same fashion. I don't think that is going to help the problem. It makes the package a little bit shorter but that other package--I wouldn't have got the sense of pipe.
Mr. LIEBELER - The witness indicates that because of the stock and the rifle barrel are separate when the rifle is broken down, it seems natural, does it not, Mr. Paine, to place the barrel and action of the rifle directly over the top of the stock when wrapping it this way?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - If you do that, you would not have the sense of grasping the muzzle of the rifle or of a pipe when you picked up the package?
Mr. PAINE - And this, putting the barrel below the stock, doesn't leave, offset the package in the way that gave me the problem with the folding shovel there. The symmetrical shovel if I wrapped that in some fashion Also it mustn't rattle. He is going to have to tie it firmly with string not to have it as monolithic or solid as it had been. The barrel, I must have just felt the barrel, I felt a pipe, and the barrel had to be sticking out beyond the stock.
Mr. LIEBELER - You think that because the barrel of the rifle had to be sticking out behind the stock and because when the rifle is placed in the package in two different pieces, it is difficult to tie it tightly enough to keep it rattling and you would infer that the rifle was put together when it was the package in your garage, assuming that there was a rifle in the package in the garage? Did you ever tell the FBI that you were sure in the light of recent events that you were sure it was a rifle in the package?
Mr. PAINE - I told the FBI the description or the suggestion of a rifle as the object brought together these loose pieces or loose concepts on the offset bulk which was the butt end, and the pipe, the 30-inch pipe I drew in the picture, so it made sense. The picture jelled when the rifle was suggested as an object.
Mr. LIEBELER - And so you concluded that it was likely that there was, in fact, a rifle in the package?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I thought that was so.
Mr. LIEBELER - I show you Commission Exhibit 364, which is a replica of a paper sack or package which was found in the School Book Depository, after the assassination. I point out to you that Commission 364 is merely a replica of the actual sack that was found. The actual sack that was found is Commission Exhibit 142, and it has now been discolored because it has been treated by the FBI for fingerprints.
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - But there is a part of the package that has not been treated, and I ask you if that part of 142 that has not been treated is similar to Commission Exhibit 364 as far as color and texture are concerned. I want you to examine both of these pieces of paper in any event.
Mr. PAINE - Well, it looks to me as if 364 is a more usual kind of paper, the difference is pretty slight.
Mr. LIEBELER - You do not notice a difference between the two papers, however?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; is seems to me that is unusually crisp; yes, I would say there is a difference.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you note that the difference is, 142 is more crisp than 364?
Mr. PAINE - Yes. It seems to me this is the kind of paper, it seems to me this is more common.
Mr. LIEBELER - Referring to 364?
Mr. PAINE - 364, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you think that is a more commonly observed type of paper?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; that is an unusual paper. You don't find paper bags made of that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Referring to 142. Now, examine after examining both 142 and 364, did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your garage or at your home in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - Well, most of the things that are paper have been added to the garage since I moved out, so I am not very familiar with them. We stored some rugs in, I think, in polyethylene, but I am not sure all of them were in polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or something like that which are still there. I don't know how they came.
Mr. LIEBELER - What kind of curtain rods?
Mr. PAINE - These expanding rods that are----
Mr. LIEBELER - And you have no idea where they came from?
Mr. PAINE - Let's see, no, those came down from--I think those were in the house, I guess they weren't bought. I think Ruth took them down because the children were allergic to something, and she was taking them down, took down the curtains, and left only shades. Bought shades, I guess, she bought curtain shades to go up, new shades. That is a question, well, of course, paper could have been--I don't remember any particular, I didn't have any rolls of this kind of paper or a supply of it, wrapping paper.
Mr. LIEBELER - Let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. You say they were in the house at the time in Irving when you purchased the house.
Mr. PAINE - Yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are junk that I try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work bench, and I think they were in our house and there were curtains on them and she took the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might be holding dust and put up instead some new curtains, new window shades in the bedrooms.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately when did she do that, do you remember?
Mr. PAINE - You will have to ask Ruth herself. She put down a new floor, also, getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and I thought it was in the fall, but I can't place when it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - In the fall of 1963?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you say the curtain rods are still in the garage?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately how long are they?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I think this is, when they expand, I guess the curtain rods themselves are 32 1/2 inches to 3 feet, but the two of them slide together to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately how long are they, would you say, when they are fitted together and in their collapsed state or their----
Mr. PAINE - As I say, those came out of house or she would not have, I was trying to think of some of the paper she might have had that resembles this, but the thing she bought new would be the shades, the window shades to go in place of those curtain rods.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might have been a package in which those shades came?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't recall any.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever have a conversation with your wife about these curtain rods in connection with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - No. I think we did both read that he had said he was, to Frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something to do with windows in my mind.
Mr. LIEBELER - But your wife didn't mention to you that Oswald ever mentioned to her anything about the curtains rods?
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, place yourself in the garage on or about November 21, 22, 1963, or shortly before that time, and tell me everything that you can remember as being in that garage.
Mr. PAINE - Well, there is a bench along, in front of, a fiberglass window panel. That bench is generally covered with boxes, there are boxes underneath that bench. On the end of the bench is a drill press. My recollection is confused by the fact I am much more familiar with it now that I have moved back and I have moved my stuff into that garage, so it is fuzzy in my memory.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you present on November 22 when the police or the FBI or any other authorities searched the garage?
Mr. PAINE - No, I wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - What time did you get to the Irving house on the 22d?
Mr. PAINE - I think just about 3 o'clock.
Mr. LIEBELER - 3 o'clock on Friday afternoon?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What were the circumstances under which you first heard of the assassination on that day?
Mr. PAINE - I was eating lunch in the bowling alley, and the waitress came and told me. I thought she was joking, and we went and listened to somebody's transistor, and then I went back to the lab.
Mr. LIEBELER - At that time you had heard only that the President had been shot, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, that is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER - There was no connection with Oswald?
Mr. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER - And the assassination at that time?
Mr. PAINE - That is right. Went back to the lab and then----
Mr. LIEBELER - Before you get back to the lab let me ask you this, who was with you at the first time you heard the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - Dave Noel.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was Mr. Krystinik with you?
Mr. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you hear during this first period of time when you first heard of the assassination, that the President had been shot near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. PAINE - I don't believe so. I think, I heard that he had been shot, I listened over some of the crowd's shoulders, a little cluster of people listening to a transistor radio thereby knowing it was no joke, so we went back to the lab where there is a radio. So I didn't hear it until I got back to the lab. As soon as I got back to the lab it was not very long after that that it was mentioned, that the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, and then I mentioned to Frank Krystinik that is where Lee worked, and, then in the course of the next half hour Frank and I were discussing whether to report to the FBI that Lee worked there, and----
Mr. LIEBELER - Tell me what you said and what he said.
Mr. PAINE - He was urging me to do it, and or asking whether I didn't think we should do it, and I was torn but I came up with the decision no, the FBI already knows he works there. Everybody will be jumping on him because he is a black sheep, and I didn't want to join the hysterical mob in his harassment. So I decided I wouldn't call, I didn't say that I couldn't but I said I wasn't going to call the FBI on it.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you told him that?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did he say?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I think he accepted it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did it occur to you at that time that Oswald had in fact had anything to do with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, of course, it did, I am sure it made by heart leap to hear that building mentioned. But I thought--I didn't see how it helped the causes that he presumably was concerned about, so I thought it unlikely on that account alone.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you think he was capable of doing that at that time?
Mr. PAINE - We heard or somewhere I read or heard a report, and an eye witness, presumably eye witness, report saying the man who was shooting the President took his good old time or, in other words, fired with deliberateness. This seemed in character.
Mr. LIEBELER - With Oswald?
Mr. PAINE - With Oswald, yes. I don't think he was a person with compassion, or--the only reason I didn't think he was because I didn't see how it fitted in with his philosophy or how it was going to forward his causes, not because it seemed--not because it was not possible to his nature or his character.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you call Ruth after you learned of the assassination and prior to the time that you heard Oswald----
Mr. PAINE - Yes, I did call her.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did you say and what did she say?
Mr. PAINE - We said very little. That must have been, I guess I called her immediately getting back to the lab, so she would be watching and listening and getting clued in to the news, start watching the news. That must have also been before the Texas Book Depository Building was mentioned because I would have mentioned that I didn't. I just--we said almost nothing except----
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to her after you learned that the TSBD was involved, but before you learned that Oswald was suspected of being involved?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't believe I called her again.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had been arrested?
Mr. PAINE - Yes. As soon as I heard his name mentioned, then I went home. His name, of course, was mentioned not in connection with the Texas Book Depository Building but simply as a person caught in the theatre. But that was enough connection for me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Because you knew he did work at the TSBD?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, of course, Frank and I were having this heart-wrenching discussion about the right thing to do. And justification for my action was based on the thought that he was probably not the one and, therefore, it was a cruelty to be adding to the harassment that he would inevitably encounter because anyone who knew him for very long surely knew his views. That is he would, he would be a black sheep in any crowd of Americans.
Mr. LIEBELER - Let's go back to the question of this paper. Do you have any recollection of ever seeing any paper like either one of these two samples in front of you, 142 and 364, in or about your place in Irving, Tex.?

And in connection with this question consider also the gummed wrapping tape with which the packages are reconstructed?
Mr. PAINE - We have a roll of gummed wrapping paper at home but this is 3 inches wide and we have 2-inch wide. Do you have a ruler here? Yes, this is 3-inch tape.
Now I don't remember for certain what the tape is we had at home, but I the impression it was a 2-inch tape.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you have any recollection that the authorities inquired about this question before?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't recall that question at all.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you still have that tape?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, we do.
Mr. LIEBELER - I would like to have you make sure that it doesn't get lost when we come down to Dallas within the next week or two. We will ask you some more questions about it.
Mr. PAINE - All right. Do you want me to make a note of it?
Mr. LIEBELER - In fact, I will ask you if you would, when you return to Irving, if you would take a sample of that tape and mail it to me at the Commission so that between now and the time I come to Texas the FBI will have an opportunity to examine it and compare it with the tape which has been used in making bags. Do you recall whether that tape was at your premises on November 22?
Mr. PAINE - I think so. It has been there for quite a long time. That is presumably, I don't think it has been used up. I was using it fairly recently. I didn't use much so it would still be there, and I think it had been a big roll and now it is a small roll. We don't use much.
Mr. LIEBELER - Where was it located on the 22d of November, do you remember?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; there is a drawer which it is possible he knew of. The desk---I think he helped us move the furniture around at that time the desk was moved to its present position, which is right beside the garage door. There is a kitchen-dining area and from that the door leads into the garage and it is right beside that door in the bottom drawer.
Mr. LIEBELER - What about the paper. Do you think that there is any possibility that Oswald could have gotten the paper from which he presumably made this bag at your place?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I don't recognize that paper.
Mr. LIEBELER - Referring to 142?
Mr. PAINE - Or as I say, this looks more common or cheaper grade of paper.
Mr. LIEBELER - Referring to 364.
Mr. PAINE - And I don't remember paper of either kind, of course, in the garage itself.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you have any recollection of the authorities inquiring about the presence or absence of paper like this at your place?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any discussions about any questions which the FBI or the other authorities may have asked your wife about this question?
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember anything on it. One way or the other about that.
Mr. LIEBELER - To the best of your recollection the subject has never been mentioned between yourself and your wife?
Mr. PAINE - I am certain that I have never discussed tape with anyone. I did know it was reported in the paper that Lee went to work that morning with something wrapped in brown paper, curtain rods, I guess he did call it. Whether we had some discussion or I think it is we may have had some discussion, I just don't remember the burden of it.
Mr. LIEBELER - I have a list of names of people who I think lived in the Dallas and Fort Worth area and I want to ask you whether you know them or whether their names are familiar to you. Mr. and Mrs. Peter Gregory?
Mr. PAINE - The name has been mentioned. Ruth, I think, Russian speaking people, Ruth has mentioned the name.
Mr. LIEBELER - You have never met them?
Mr. PAINE - Not to my knowledge.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you have any recollection of what Ruth told you about them?
Mr. PAINE - I don't believe she had met them either. No, I don't recall what she said about them.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you that she had called Mr. Peter Gregory in connection with some work she wanted to do in the Russian language, subsequent to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember the context in which she mentioned Peter Gregory's name.
Mr. LIEBELER - Max Clark.
Mr. PAINE - That is an unfamiliar name.
Mr. LIEBELER - Gali Clark?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't know that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Elena Hall, Mrs John Hall?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Mr. George Bouhe?
Mr. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Anna Meller?
Mr. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Anna Ray?
Mr. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - And that is Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?
Mr. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. PAINE - It was, the name there is familiar. I don't believe I have met them. They were friends of Everett Glover and then Everett Glover moved to their house later.
Mr. LIEBELER - Moved into De Mohrenschildt's house?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; they were, they had been in Haiti for a while, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Mr. Glover tell you that?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You never met De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. PAINE - I have--Everett gave some parties to which we went, it is possible that I--for practical purposes I had not met them.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't know anything about them?
Mr. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Oswald ever speak of them?
Mr. PAINE - I think he did, yes, yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember what he said?
Mr. PAINE - I remember, I don't remember what he said about them. I was--it is possibly because he said the name twice and I didn't catch it until after the second time he had spoken of it or it didn't ring a bell, De Mohrenschildt didn't ring a bell, or he didn't pronounce it with such clarity or something. So it didn't really register and I didn't connect it up with whatever he was saying at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Gary and Alexandra Taylor?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Tatiana Biggers?
Mr. PAINE - Everett had--Biggers doesn't sound like the right name. At one time Everett was--had a ballet dancer that had some kind of a name like that. He introduced me to a--I think we met at a theater and he introduced me to some let's say no; I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER - The name previously mentioned, Mr. Everett Glover, is he a close friend of yours?
Mr. PAINE - We have known him a long time since we have been in Dallas. We met the Glovers at madrigal singing, we liked to sing madrigals, and he was part of the group and his wife used to sing at the Unitarian Church in the choir where I sing, and they were separated two years ago probably and I have seen him only occasionally when he would go to the madrigals and once I went skating with him. Occasionally we have met also at the theater center. He has been there also. Occasionally also I have stopped by--there is a--he showed up once or twice at a single adult party dance of the Unitarian Church.
Mr. LIEBELER - He doesn't work with Bell Helicopter, does he?
Mr. PAINE - No; he works for an oil company, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER - He is a geologist?
Mr. PAINE - He may be something of that sort.
Mr. LIEBELER - Richard Pierce?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; he lived with Everett Glover.
Mr. LIEBELER - How well do you know him?
Mr. PAINE - I know him much less than Everett. When we visited Everett's house for a sing or something, I think I would meet him, and he also would come to these single adult parties--but I don't know----
Mr. LIEBELER - What about Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen?
Mr. PAINE - That name doesn't ring a bell either.
Mr. LIEBELER - Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr. PAINE - He is in that same category with Mr. Pierce living with Everett and occasionally showing up at the stag parties.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mr. PAINE - I don't think I know Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER - Ilya Mamantov?
Mr. PAINE - I suppose that is Mr. Mamantov whom I recognize by sight but I may have shaken his hand.
Mr. LIEBELER - How do you have occasion to recognize him by sight?
Mr. PAINE - Well, he is the son-in-law, if Ilya is the right name I don't know, I know him as Mr. Mamantov, Ruth's tutor, I have forgotten his name at this time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Dorothy Gravitis?
Mr. PAINE - That is right. And I have seen him around SMU and he was an interpreter at the police station.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know anybody by the name of Harten?
Mr. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Warner Kloepfer?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Has Ruth ever spoken to you of the Kloepfers?
Mr. PAINE - Not that I can recall.
Mr. LIEBELER - My understanding is they lived there in New Orleans.
Mr. PAINE - Oh, then I don't know them. No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know a Charles Edward Harris?
Mr. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Florence McDonald?
Mr. PAINE - I know Elizabeth MacDonald, I think it is.
Mr. LIEBELER - Who is she?
Mr. PAINE - She was a friend of---she would come to these madrigal groups and I think she was a friend of either of Everett or of Pierce or something like that. It was in connection with the madrigal sings and I think they were the ones who brought them into circulation.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know Col. J. D. Wilmeth?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't know him. A colleague at work lives nearby who shares a well with him and keeps it repaired.
Mr. LIEBELER - Who does?
Mr. PAINE - Clark Benham, another colleague at work, uses the water from Colonel Wilmeth's well and has to keep the well operating so I hear stories about Mr. Wilmeth and he lives with his old, ancient mother. I haven't met him myself, I don't believe.
Mr. LIEBELER - You mentioned that---did you mention that he called you at your office at one time?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I think he has, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you tell us the circumstances of that event?
Mr. PAINE - Well, he wanted to see Marina, I think, he wanted to hear, I think he said he wanted to hear the native tongue spoken or spoken by a native. And so he was quite eager to meet both Ruth and Marina and called me to ask how and when and what not. So, he may have called me more than once on that subject.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you have any idea why he called you at work? In order to contact these women?
Mr. PAINE - It seemed very appropriate. Maybe Clark, Clark, of course, sees him quite frequently, and maybe Clark told him that Marina was living with us. I cannot--I could be clued in. I remember at the time there was a reason for it. I mean it seemed appropriate, it wasn't out of the blue, but I can't--unless it was that I had been talking about Marina with Clark and then Clark told it to him.
Mr. LIEBELER - You never have met Colonel Wilmeth?
Mr. PAINE - I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Ruth ever tell you that Colonel Wilmeth had come to call on her and Marina?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; that call or one or two calls he made to the lab to me was asking me if I would make it possible for him to meet them and so I told Ruth, and either Ruth called or I told her that he was, he would like to come on the weekend or something or he would call, I forget, but anyway I was a go-between to help in a polite way to meet Ruth.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Ruth tell you about the meeting when he came?
Mr. PAINE - She did; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Tell us about it.
Mr. PAINE - I think she said she had a good time, I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember any of the details of what she said?
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember the details; no.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know a gentleman by the name of Clifton M. Shasteen?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER - He is a barber in Irving, Tex.
Mr. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you ordinarily get your hair cut in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - I used to get my hair cut, and I don't think that is the name of the person or where it used to be done but for the year that I was living in Grand Prairie, I found a barber I liked better over there and I had it done over there all the time, almost all the time. I guess I haven't in months. I had another barber down in Irving and got a bad haircut.
Mr. LIEBELER - How much does a haircut cost in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - I think more frequently it is a dollar fifty; when I get it over in Grand Prairie it is a dollar and a quarter.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is there a standard price so far as you know for barber shops in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - I would suppose a dollar and fifty was.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever know Oswald to associate with any young boys? There has been a report that he was seen in the presence of, in the company of a 14-year-old boy. Do you know of anyone fitting that description?

Mr. PAINE - I don't know of anyone with whom he associated. I didn't--I was aware of not asking him how he spent his free time.
Mr. LIEBELER - There has also been a report from Mr. Leonard Edwin Hutchison who apparently runs Hutch's Supermarket in Irving that Oswald came in there on a certain day and asked to cash a two-party check for $189. Have you ever heard anything about that?
Mr. PAINE - No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know Mr. Hutchison?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know, are you familiar with Hutch's Market, Supermarket?
Mr. PAINE - I am trying to think of the name of the market that is on Storey Road, not Storey, Shady Lane--Shady Grove Road or Lane, that is, if he isn't on that address then I don't know where it is.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever take Oswald to any supermarket?
Mr. PAINE - I didn't; no.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he ever use your automobile?
Mr. PAINE - Not to my knowledge. Presumably he couldn't drive. He couldn't have used my automobile very well because I don't believe he knew where my second key was, and I would always have the key.
Mr. LIEBELER - What kind of an automobile do you own?
Mr. PAINE - It is a French Citroen.
Mr. LIEBELER - What model?
Mr. PAINE - 1959; year 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER - Not a 2CV?
Mr. PAINE - No; it is an ID-19, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is that the only automobile that you own?
Mr. PAINE - While they were here I bought a second automobile; an Olds, '55 or '56 Oldsmobile, '56, I believe.
Mr. LIEBELER - When was this?
Mr. PAINE - During the time, sometime between September and November, I bought a secondhand '56 Oldsmobile.
Mr. LIEBELER - For your own personal use?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - So that you then had two cars?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And Ruth has a station wagon, doesn't she?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And that is her own car?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is that the only automobile that she owns?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What model is that?
Mr. PAINE - '55.
Mr. LIEBELER - Chevrolet station wagon?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether Oswald used that?
Mr. PAINE - Ruth took Oswald to practice driving in a parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you about that?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did she tell you?
Mr. PAINE - I can't remember whether she has told me so much more since November 22 and I can't remember whether she may have said before that. She was telling me how he was persistent, diligent in trying to learn, not very particularly skilled, and apparently quite pleased at the whole process. He was grateful to her and one of the nicest kinds of communication she had with him.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she say anything about his ability to drive a car?
Mr. PAINE - She thought it was pretty crude. He was having trouble operating the clutch, and over-controlling the stick, or the steering wheel. Those are my words. She didn't use "over-controlling" but put it in some other way.
Mr. LIEBELER - The station wagon has a straight transmission.
Mr. PAINE - No; it is an automatic transmission, power brakes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was he practicing on the station wagon or----
Mr. PAINE - Yes; over-controlling the stick, I was thinking of an airplane.
Mr. LIEBELER - I thought you mentioned the clutch.
Mr. PAINE - Maybe it was the brake; did I mention the clutch?
Mr. LIEBELER - At any event she wasn't overly impressed with his ability to manipulate the controls?
Mr. PAINE - She was impressed with how much a person has to learn when they learn to drive a car.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever lend Oswald any money?
Mr. PAINE - No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever give him any?
Mr. PAINE - No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether your wife did?
Mr. PAINE - I don't believe she gave Lee any money. She gave Marina pocket money.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you have any idea of how much she gave Marina?
Mr. PAINE - Generally she would pay for things that Marina needed, medicines and things like that. I think she also gave her pocket money. It may have been five dollars a week or something like that. It could have been ten dollars a week. I doubt if it would be that much.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you have any knowledge of Oswald spending any money for bus fare from Dallas, between Dallas and Irving or anywhere else?
Mr. PAINE - He would come out and I suppose by bus to Irving. I do remember that he came out a couple of times, and then wanted somebody to pick him up there.
Mr. LIEBELER - At the bus station in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - At the bus station in Irving.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you say it was just twice that he did that?
Mr. PAINE - I think that is about all.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you have any idea what the bus fare from Dallas to Irving is?
Mr. PAINE - No; I don't have any idea.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether Oswald spent any money for telephone calls?
Mr. PAINE - I never saw Oswald spend any money.
Mr. LIEBELER - For anything, under any circumstances at any time?
Mr. PAINE - Yes. Of course, that shouldn't be you construe that as you please, but if you think it is penny-pinching it may be. But I saw him at home and not in any position to spend money. He didn't have any money jingling in his pockets that I recalled.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether Oswald owned any cameras?
Mr. PAINE - I wasn't aware of it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether he ever bought any records, musical records?
Mr. PAINE - Well, they made some records for us, I thought they were Marina's records. We played some records for them and they wanted to play some for us or something, so they were records that were Russian singing or something, I can't remember what it was. It was rather poor fidelity so I didn't enjoy listening to them.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you know whether Oswald received any periodicals or mail at your address in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - Yes. The Daily Worker, or it is not the Daily Worker now but the Worker, what is it called now?
Mr. LIEBELER - The Worker.
Mr. PAINE - Would come. Ruth said he received all his, The Militant also there. I don't remember, recall, seeing The Militant there but generally, I didn't see the mail very much. She would put my mail apart, I had half my mail or more than half my mail would come to that address, since I didn't feel the one at Grand Prairie was a permanent address, so I didn't see most of the mail. She would separate my mail into a separate pile and I would pick it up.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about these periodicals?
Mr. PAINE - Yes. He said in regard to, I think, the Worker or at least it was the Worker he gave me to look at as the result of his conversation, he told me if you knew how to read the thing and read between the lines a little bit you could see what they wanted you to do.
Mr. LIEBELER - He said that?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - When did he say that?
Mr. PAINE - I think that was a week or two after he came, pretty soon after coming back. I talked to him rather less and less as the weeks rolled by.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ask him what he meant by that remark?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I certainly wish I had, no; I didn't. I took the issue he gave me just to make my eye go over it. I thought to myself instead here is a person who is pretty, well, out of it again if this is the way he gets his communications from headquarters.

Mr. LIEBELER - Tell us everything that you can remember about that conversation.
Mr. PAINE - That wasn't much of a conversation. It happened in an afternoon. I am afraid I can't remember anything more about it. I remember only the thoughts, I sort of smiled to myself when he said this.
Mr. PAINE - Thinking of the kind of person--what it said about him so it suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a group that had objectives. In other words, he wanted to be an activist of some sort. And he wasn't aware of--it seemed somewhat childish to me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Why do you say that?
Mr. PAINE - Well it would have seemed more competent to have more explicit communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine. And if you had more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't mention receiving your directions from the newspaper, reading between the lines of a newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that he had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding any subject in the political field?
Mr. PAINE - No; he didn't, and it was these various--there weren't many occasions. Another time at the ACLU, in this talk that he had with Frank or this argument that he had with Frank and a third person on the way home he asked me if I knew that third person and whether I thought he was a Communist, and he said he thought he was a Communist, Lee thought the third person was a Communist, and he gave me some reason and a receptivity to some words spoken about Castro. And I thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a Communist that again I thought to myself he must be out of it if that is the way he has to find his fellow travelers.
Mr. LIEBELER - When you use the expression "out of it" do you mean to convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any Communist group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality?
Mr. PAINE - No; I mean in this case he was not associated with a cell or a Communist group. This I didn't know. That was the impression and thought in the back of my mind from the things he had said.
Mr. LIEBELER - When he made this remark about the person at the ACLU meeting being a Communist how was the remark made, did he seem to indicate to you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to meet this person, to associate with him or was he just making a general remark or were you thinking in the perjurative sense, how did he speak, what impression did he give you?
Mr. PAINE - I had the impression that he hoped he would be a Communist and he would like to meet him again, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you notice the person. this third person?
Mr. PAINE - No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was he an elderly person?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know a Reverend Helligas?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - This was not him?
Mr. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you observe Oswald speak with Reverend Helligas that evening at the meeting?
Mr. PAINE - No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you ever learned the identity of this third person?
Mr. PAINE - No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you ever seen him again?
Mr. PAINE - I think that is the last ACLU meeting I have been to. They convene very infrequently.
Mr. LIEBELER - By that do you mean you have not seen this person again?
Mr. PAINE - Therefore, I have not seen him again. I expect he is a registered member of the ACLU. I had the impression he was an ACLU member. He is rather softspoken, a quiet man.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you recognize him again if you saw him?
Mr. PAINE - I probably would.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you discussed him with anybody else in the ACLU?
Mr. PAINE - I joined Frank to the ACLU now.
Mr. LIEBELER - You discussed him with Frank?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; that is Frank Krystinik.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you attempted to identify this third person?
Mr. PAINE - No; I never, I have not.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever know Oswald to give Marina any money during the time that Marina lived at your house?
Mr. PAINE - No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER - When Oswald stayed at your home in Irving on the weekends, did he eat all of his meals there?
Mr. PAINE - I came only for Friday's supper and would leave and would sometimes be there on Sunday. Therefore, I couldn't be--I was not in a position to say. I think he did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether he ever made any contribution in respect to those meals?
Mr. PAINE - Oh, no, he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he make any contribution to any of the other expenses of the household?
Mr. PAINE - No, he didn't. I for one didn't expect him to. I didn't--I would have been surprised had he done so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether he packed lunch in the morning when he left for work and took it with him or ate breakfast there before he left?
Mr. PAINE - He would eat breakfast there. This again was just what Ruth has told me, he would eat a breakfast consisting of coffee and maybe a piece of toast. I forget what it is. I don't believe he packed a lunch.
Mr. LIEBELER - You do believe?
Mr. PAINE - I don't believe he did.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't believe.
Mr. PAINE - I don't know of it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Oswald ever discuss finances with you or in your presence?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I raised the problem when he obtained the job at the Book Depository Building, I mentioned that one and a quarter, I wanted to confirm at one and a quarter, and I did somehow.
Mr. LIEBELER - Why did you want to confirm that?
Mr. PAINE - It seemed to me that is still a pretty slim pickings to live on, also I was concerned about how long the job might last, and I inquired, therefore, about the number of people working there and how come he was employed after all after the school year began so if he was employed then it was possible that it was a full year occupation. I would have normally expected the rush of employment to be prior to the school year. And then to lay off after the books had been sent. I was concerned in other words that he should be able to keep his job, but also I would have preferred had it been a little bit more money he would be a happier person.
Mr. LIEBELER - That later part is your own surmise?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; but it is my own experience.
Mr. LIEBELER - In terms of Oswald?
Mr. PAINE - He was pleased to get the job, and I avoided talking too directly about the possibility of his losing that job because I felt it was, he would be concerned about the same matter, and now perhaps I was projecting but I do remember not asking as many questions about that as were in my mind just because I didn't want to arouse the anxiety that he must feel in regard to the job.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he ever indicate to you that he felt that the FBI was responsible for his not being able to obtain a job?
Mr. PAINE - No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he ever indicate that he thought the FBI was responsible for his losing a job?
Mr. PAINE - No; he never mentioned losing a job with me. I surmised from the first time I met him, he was at the Neely Street address, and Marina was packing, took about half an hour to leave and Marina was packing things for Junie. And so he and I sat on the sofa and talked.
Mr. LIEBELER - This is before he went to New Orleans?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And they were packing to go to New Orleans?
Mr. PAINE - No, no; packing to come over to our house for dinner.
Mr. LIEBELER - I see.
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - This was the first time you met him?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did he say?
Mr. PAINE - And there he mentioned how he didn't have people at work, people who talked about this subject of politics and economics and he also mentioned with some bitterness how his employer made more money than he did and the things that his employer had that he did not have. It was the only time I observed personal animosity, and I thought to myself, he must be rather difficult, that animosity or resentment must show through to his employer.
This was just in what he said. It struck me that these things must happen. When he later lost his job, I don't know whether it was later or not but he may have lost the job already, I didn't realize it, I thought he was still employed there. These seemed to me adequate reasons, sub rosa reasons for his dismissal.
Mr. LIEBELER - You never had any indication from anyone that he felt the FBI was in any way responsible for his losing his job?
Mr. PAINE - He never mentioned the FBI to me. And I never talked with anyone else who knew him except Ruth. Ruth did, of course indicate, told me of his extreme allergy to the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER - But she didn't indicate that he felt that they had caused him to lose jobs?
Mr. PAINE - I think she mentioned this, she asked me not to mention this to other people but I guess you are not just other people. She read this note which he had left on her desk, I had the impression it was a couple of days; actually it was only a day or so. He had written, typed it but had written a rough draft which he left on her desk; she gave the note, her copy of it, perhaps, she copied it for me to read. I didn't really absorb it, I did read it, and I did read he spoke of the notorious FBI.
Ruth cited the letter to me as an example of how he could lie. She hadn't been aware of his lying before. She thought his trip to Mexico, which he mentioned his trip to Mexico in his letter hadn't been true and it was a fabrication, but it was, we talked, therefore, a little bit about his---also, I think----
Mr. LIEBELER - His feeling about the FBI?
Mr. PAINE - We talked a little bit about his abuse of the FBI there. And also I think it was mentioned that, Ruth mentioned to me that, the FBI had been out once or twice or had reported this to me, and that Lee seemed to resent that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Let's go back to this letter, when did Ruth first show you this letter, and I take it you are referring to a draft of a letter from Oswald to the Russian Embassy?
Mr. PAINE - I didn't know who it was written to.
Mr. LIEBELER - But the letter referred to the notorious FBI?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; I don't think it was the Russian Embassy. I thought it was a friend to whom he was speaking in a rather braggart way of what he had done. He had gone down to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico, and they had, I think this is the letter, I could be mixed up, and that they had not given him a visa--actually, I had made a mistake in the heading because I thought--it said, "Dear Sirs," but I though it said, "Dear Lisa." Ruth told me it had said, "Dear Sirs."
Mr. LIEBELER - This was in Russian or in English?
Mr. PAINE - She must have shown me the letter in his hand, therefore, yes. I thought it was "Dear Lisa," English.
Mr. LIEBELER - When did she show you this letter?
Mr. PAINE - This is a confusing matter, because I was reading some other magazine at the time, and she intruded this thing on my attention, and I didn't really shift attention too well.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was it before the assassination or afterwards?
Mr. PAINE - It was before, yes. No; afterwards, I would have paid close attention to it. Since recently, I have, Ruth has, figured out that it must have been, he must have started writing on Friday or something and she cleaned up or removed the desk, it was that time when we moved the furniture. It had been written just prior to that, and we did that on a Sunday night. Maybe she preserved his original draft, I don't remember what happened, because I would have guessed that in order to misread the "Dear Sirs" for "Dear Lisa," I would have seen it, I would have read it correctly in her hand.
Mr. LIEBELER - Recapitulate for me, if you can, the number of times and the dates on which you saw Oswald after he returned from New Orleans up until the time of the assassination. You said you saw him, I believe shortly after he returned from wherever he had been.

Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And that was around October 4, was it not?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - The first part of October. When was the next time you saw him?
Mr. PAINE - I think I probably saw him on each weekend except the one preceding the assassination. There were at least one or two, I think there were two before he had a job and then he had a job and a birthday party.

Mr. LIEBELER - That would have been October 18, would it not, approximately, when he had a birthday party or represented to you that his birthday was October 18?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; he may have celebrated the next day but----
Mr. LIEBELER - And your recollection is that you saw him each weekend after that except for the weekend immediately prior to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - The weekend of November 8, 9, and 10 was a long weekend, was it not?
Mr. PAINE - He was there then. I remember we didn't have a long weekend, Bell didn't. He had another day to sit in front of the TV.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was that the last weekend that you saw him then?
Mr. PAINE - If that is the one prior, two weekends, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, starting at November 8, 9, and 10, which was the last time you saw him, consider when your wife showed you the draft of the letter that we spoke of just before. Would it have been that weekend or after that?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I suppose it would be after that. They weren't in the house when she showed it to me or at least he wasn't. I don't remember when he wrote that letter or when we moved the furniture.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't remember whether you saw Oswald after you read the letter or not?
Mr. PAINE - That is a good question, I can see some point to it now. One would surmise that, and I would think it reasonable that I would have looked at him with somewhat different point of view after having read the letter, and I don't remember looking at him with that different point of view, so quite possibly I didn't see him again.
Mr. LIEBELER - So we would--the conclusion would be suggested that she showed you the letter sometime after November 8 or 9, 1963?
Mr. PAINE - Yes; yes, I would guess that she, as I say, I would come to a dinner when he was not there on either of the Tuesday or the Wednesday and that would have been a reasonable time that she would have shown me the letter.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have a discussion with her about this subject of his having gone to Mexico which was discussed in the letter, was it not?
Mr. PAINE - She thought it was a fabrication, a complete fabrication. And she did not discuss, she gave me the letter, and as I say I was reading some other magazine and I read the letter and went back to my magazine. How dense people can be. But anyway----
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she----
Mr. PAINE - So we did not talk about it until later, then she took the letter back and put it in an envelope or something, she didn't want me to see it. She was sort of irked that I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Look at it when she wanted you to look at it?
Mr. PAINE - Pay more attention to this thing, yes. But she didn't want me to see it again. "If You didn't see anything in it never mind looking at it."
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you about any discussions she had with Marina Oswald about Oswald's having been in Mexico?
Mr. PAINE - I was under the impression that Ruth didn't know he had been in Mexico until after the assassination and, therefore, and I think Ruth later said, was dismayed also that Marina had been apparently, had apparently known and deceived her in this matter.

Mr. LIEBELER - Well, did Ruth mention the fact that Marina had a little charm made out of Mexican peso.
Mr. PAINE - Yes; but we didn't put that two and two together there until the FBI came and we looked on our drill press to see if they had used the tools in the shop to mount the sights on the gun and we found these little metal filings and then Ruth remembered that he had drilled out a coin to give to Marina and she never--I can't remember whether she realized then that it was a peso or Ruth hadn't thought that much about it until afterward.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you didn't discuss that subject prior to the assassination, with your wife?
Mr. PAINE - I didn't know about this whole thing, this medallion.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did your wife mention the fact that Marina Oswald had a record of Mexican music?
Mr. PAINE - No; I didn't know that until now. I don't recall it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did your wife tell you anything about the nature of her relationship with Marina Oswald during this period from the first of October up to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - It all seemed perfectly reasonable to me. When Ruth had met Marina back in the spring, I had seen that Marina Oswald--when I met them in their apartment, Oswald had spoken very loudly and harshly to Marina, and I thought to myself, isn't it amazing to see a little fellow who insists on wearing the pants, strongly. And then later on in discussions which followed the discussion which followed, that evening at the house, our house, he would not let her have a contrary opinion, and I also saw she was allergic to gibes, and he would gibe frequently.
Mr. LIEBELER - She was allergic to them?
Mr. PAINE - It seemed to me so.
Mr. LIEBELER - They affected her greatly?
Mr. PAINE - Yes. This all went on in Russian, and I don't know what he was saying. But I could see the object about which the statement was made, and later Ruth also told me some of the things that he had said.
But I felt that he was keeping her a vassal, and since I was more eager to hear her opinions of Russia than his opinions of Russia, I was eager that she should learn English, and when--Ruth told me that Marina thought she must have to go back to the Soviet Union, and I thought out of largesse of this country it should be possible for her to stay here if she wanted to stay here and she quite apparently did, she struck me as a somewhat apolitical person and yet true, just, and conscientious, so it was agreeable to me to look forward to financing her stay until she could make her own way here.
It added--Ruth also wanted to learn Russian, this was a cheap way for her to learn Russian, than to pay tutoring. And, as it happened, it was costing me less. She didn't go out shopping so much.
Mr. LIEBELER - When she was home learning Russian from Marina?
Mr. PAINE - When Marina was there to keep her company. She would go mad with boredom, I would think. So that it--we were somewhat saddened, or I think Ruth was, I think we shared--Ruth, of course, didn't want to stand in the way of Marina and Lee if they were happy together, but would have been glad to see Marina break away and make her own way. And she was a nice companion for Ruth.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any impression of how Marina and Ruth got along together, what they did with their time during the day, that sort of thing?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER - Mr. Paine, you mentioned before these curtain rods that were in your garage. Can you tell us approximately how many curtain rods there were in the garage when you last saw them and tell us when you last saw them?
Mr. PAINE - I saw them quite recently, 2 weeks ago.
Mr. LIEBELER - How many curtain rods were there then?
Mr. PAINE - There might be as many as four.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were there ever any more than that?
Mr. PAINE - I don't believe so. These were normally up on the shelf above the bench, and for some reason, they recently, I had to take them down, or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember seeing them shortly before November 22 at any time?
Mr. PAINE - They never particularly impressed themselves on my recollection.
Mr. LIEBELER - Those are all the questions I have.