Testimony Of Ruth Hyde Paine

The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 11:15 a.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER -You are quite familiar with the proceedings of the Commission and with the Commission's rules governing the taking of testimony, since you have given testimony perhaps longer than any other witness we have had, so we won't go through all the rituals of explaining the purposes of why I am here, and I will come right to the point.
In the testimony that you gave before the Commission, Mr. Jenner asked you about the events of the evening of November 21, 1963, as regards the relations between Lee and Marina. There was also considerable testimony about their whereabouts and about the possibility that Oswald wrapped the rifle up that evening, but I am not particularly concerned about that. I do want to focus on your impression of the relations between Lee and Marina at that time.
As I recall, the preceding Sunday you had called Oswald at his roominghouse and asked for Lee Oswald and, of course, were not able to talk to him because he was living there under the alias of O. H. Lee. As I understand, on the following Monday Oswald called Marina, as was his custom, and they had a considerable discussion over the use of the alias, and after that conversation, or conversations that took place on Monday, Lee did not call Marina again that week; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's my impression.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember how many times Oswald called Marina on Monday?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, he called nearly every evening while he was working during the week--he usually called around 5:30, just to talk.
Mr. LIEBELER - But specifically, on this Monday following the Sunday on which you called the roominghouse and asked for him, the Monday on which they had the argument about his use of the alias, do you remember how many times he called and talked to Marina on that day?
Mrs. PAINE - On that particular Monday--only once, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER - Only one time?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina tell you, after she talked to him that Monday, what the conversation was about?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; she did.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did she tell you?
Mrs. PAINE - She said--and I believe I have testified to this--that she was clearly upset. You are asking me what she told me of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE - I, of course, could tell that she was upset while talking to him, although I didn't understand much of what she said to him, as I was in the same room. She said that he was living under a different name; was angry that we had tried to call him and she said that this is not the first time she had felt between two fires, and I judge that she meant between a loyalty to him and a feeling that what he was doing was not right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she say that this wasn't the first time that she felt between two fires, or did she use an expression that "this isn't the first time I felt 22 fires?"
Mrs. PAINE - "Between two fires," is my memory on that. Twenty-two fires? This is a common expression in Russsian; it's like between the Devil and the deep blue sea.
Mr. LIEBELER - Between two fires, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Well, the only problem that I have is that on page 45 of volume 3, of the page proofs your testimony indicates that.
Mrs. PAINE - That's why I would like to read my testimony. That's just incorrect. Between 22 fires--no, no-- this is not it. This should be, "This is not the first time I felt between two fires," which, as I say, is like our expression, "Between the Devil and the deep blue sea."
Mr. LIEBELER - I will correct the page proofs to reflect that on your previous testimony.
Mrs. PAINE - It occurs twice there, I see.
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes. Did she tell you of any detail of what the argument was about--what the situation was?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, she said that she felt he should not be using an alias. It wasn't contained in anything that was said, but I got the feeling that she was upset with his doing this or thinking that he should or could do it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you whether or not Oswald had told her why he was using the alias?
Mrs. PAINE - She did not tell me anything about why.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any ideas as to why he might be doing it?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I did suppose the possibility--it is possible that he was worried about it being found out at the School Book Depository that he had a Russian wife. He did ask me to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Frazier not to ask questions, not to discuss the fact that he had a Russian wife with the coworkers at the School Book Depository. I think he felt that, if this was known, it would also become known that he went to Russia and the circumstances of that, and he felt, and this was a sheer guess on my part, and I judge that he felt this would make his job tenure unsure.
Mr. LIEBELER - In other words, you do say, however, that Oswald did ask you to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Wesley Frazier not to talk about Oswald's Russian wife at the School Book Depository; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right; so that my impression is supported to that extent.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ask Mrs. Randle to ask Mr. Frazier to do that?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether or not she did?
Mrs. PAINE - She said she had already discussed it and she judged that they would not be talking about it.
Mr. LIEBELER - You. You don't know whether Mrs. Randle ever specifically mentioned it to Frazier after you talked to her?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I don't know that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember when Oswald asked you to do that?
Mrs. PAINE - It was very shortly after he got the job--it was in the first week, I would say.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina tell you that she was angry with Oswald for using this alias?
Mrs. PAINE - It was clear that she was angry--on the face of it.
Mr. LIEBELER - This was clear to you on Monday after the conversation she had with Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Oswald, of course, did not call Marina at any time during the rest of that week. Did you and Marina discuss the reasons for this?
Mrs. PAINE - We didn't discuss reasons. She did say on Wednesday, is my recollection, that she said, "He thinks he's punishing me," after I told her the fact that he was not calling as he usually did, and her comment was, "He thinks he's punishing me."
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you think that Marina continued to remain angry with Oswald throughout that week for his use of the alias?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't think she continued to remain angry--no. We did briefly discuss why he came on Thursday, with one another, after his arrival.
Mr. LIEBELER - Before we get to that, what was your impression of the relations, if Marina didn't tell you, between Marina and Oswald prior to the evening of Thursday, November 21?
Mrs. PAINE - They had a good many arguments and occasional heated words, and I felt this was--well, that Marina is not one to maintain a feeling of anger--I don't know about that.
Mr. LIEBELER - What makes you say that Marina is not one to maintain a feeling of anger? What is the basis for that judgment on your part?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I have very little basis. Perhaps--she did write me during the summer, and you have that correspondence, saying that things were better when she didn't argue, and that may be the outward circumstances that I'm talking about. She certainly was cordial to Lee when he arrived on Thursday, and relations were normal between them, I would say.
Mr. LIEBELER - That's really what I want to come to and I want to ask you about, and you did say that on page 47 of volume 3 in your previous testimony. Mr. Jenner asked you as regards the evening of November 21, "Was there a coolness between them?"
Mrs. PAINE - He went to bed very early. She stayed up and talked with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly on the lawn as we--
Then, Mr. Jenner said, "I mean coolness between himself and--between Lee and Marina."
Mrs. PAINE - I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat. I should interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just come in. I said to him, "Our President is coming to town."
You indicated specifically here that he was quite friendly on the lawn and that you noticed no coolness between them. Now, what was Marina's response to all this, the best you can recall?
Mrs. PAINE - You recall that he was there when I arrived from the grocery store. They had already met. Her response was really to me, as he had gone on into the house. She mentioned to me her embarrassment that he hadn't called and asked if he could come.
Mr. LIEBELER - What about Marina's response to Lee, did I understand from reading your previous testimony that both you and Marina were of the opinion that Oswald had come home that night to make up the argument that Marina and Lee had had on the telephone on Monday; isn't that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And Oswald acted in a manner that led you to believe that he had come home specifically to make up the argument?
Mrs. PAINE - That it was at least conciliatory.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did Oswald do that led you to believe that he wanted to make up the argument? Did he do anything different out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I would say just the contrary, that he proceeded as he might normally have done on a Friday night coming home or coming to the house for the weekend. I don't think--I would be certain that he made no apology, just from my judgment of the man.
Mr. LIEBELER - At least, you didn't hear him make any apology?
Mrs. PAINE - I certainly didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you hear him ask Marina to move into Dallas with him?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think that he might have asked her to do that?
Mrs. PAINE - She told me, and it should be there, that he had expressed to her--she told me the night of the 22d that he had expressed to her his wish that they could get together as soon as possible and have their apartment together. The setting in which she told me this left me with the impression that she was confused and hurt that he could be making a gesture toward the re-establishing of their family life when at the same time he must have been thinking about doing something that would necessarily destroy their family life. There was no. indication to her, in what she told me, that he meant for her to do it right away. I have since heard this by rumor.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, I'm going to read some more of the testimony to you momentarily, some of Marina's testimony, and I want to discuss it with you, but there is one bit of it particularly that I am confused about just from reading it and I get from it the possible inference and you also, I believe, indicate on page 49 of your testimony, that on the evening of the 21st you and Marina discussed plans for Christmas?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I think it was then--I'm not positive that it was that night.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there any conversation between you and Marina to the effect that Oswald was not to come back to Irving any more until Christmas time?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, absolutely not.
Mr. LIEBELER - There was no indication that his pattern of coming on weekends was to change in any manner?
Mrs. PAINE - No; we had previously talked in terms of their staying at the house through Christmas and then the Oswalds getting an apartment again when they had saved up a little money, around the first of the year.
Mr. LIEBELER - Let me read to you a part of the testimony that Marina gave.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Which, frankly, seems to me somewhat inconsistent with the testimony that you have given about the events of this evening, although perhaps, these things might have happened outside of your presence and you were not aware of them. This appears at page 65 of volume I of the hearings.
Mr. RANKIN - Did your husband give any reason for coming home on Thursday? This, of course, was on Thursday, November 21.
Mrs. OSWALD - He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the preceding weekend and he wanted to make his peace with me.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you say anything to him then?
Mrs. OSWALD - He tried to talk to me, but I would not answer him and he was very upset.
Mr. RANKIN - Were you upset with him?
Mrs. OSWALD - I was angry, of course. He was not angry, he was upset. I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent quite a bit of time putting away diapers and playing with the children on the street.
Mr. RANKIN - How did you indicate to him that you were angry with him?
Mrs. OSWALD - By not talking to him.
Mr. RANKIN - And how did he show that he was upset?
Mrs. OSWALD - He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not answer and he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him.
On that day he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together, that if I want to, he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow, that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas. He repeated this not once, but several times, but I refused. And he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him and-I didn't need him.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD - I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until the holidays, he would come and that we would all meet together and this was better, because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money and I told him to buy me a washing machine, because with two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.
Mr. RANKIN - What did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD - He said he would buy me a washing machine.
Mr. RANKIN - What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD - Thank you, that it would be better if he bought something for himself, that I would manage.
Mrs. PAINE - I want to point out that she referred to his playing with the children on the street, meaning outdoors--the phrase is the same in Russian, that is to say, the translation--it can mean either outdoors or on the street.
When I arrived, he had been there for at least, I will say, 15 minutes. I arrived around 5:30 and a good deal of this might have happened prior to then.
Mr. LIEBELER - Prior to the time you came home?
Mrs. PAINE - Prior to the time I arrived--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the next two sentences here I will read to you--two or three sentences more.
Mr. RANKIN - Did this seem to make him more upset when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?
Mrs. OSWALD - Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep at about 11:30, but it seemed to me that he was not really asleep, but I didn't talk to him.
I suggest that that testimony would indicate that there probably was a considerable degree of coolness between the Oswalds that evening; would it suggest that to you?
Mrs. PAINE - It would suggest that to me.
Mr. LIEBELER - At least that their relations would not be normal.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I might describe what I think normal is. I said I thought their relations were fairly normal.
Mr. LIEBELER - Well, was there usually a good deal of coolness between them?
Mrs. PAINE - They would often have small arguments--he wanted potatoes, or where was the ketchup level of arguments, which I felt just reflected a tension between them that showed in this way.
Now, very little was said--I don't remember well, but it was not uncommon for him to eat his meal and then leave the table before other people did. I don't remember specifically, but it's possible he did that night and go in to watch the television. In other words, his efforts at being sociable or friendly even was never very great.
Mr. LIEBELER - Well, specifically, the part of your testimony, of course, that I have difficulty in reconciling with the testimony I have just read is when Mr. Jenner asked you if you detected any coolness between Marina and him and you responded, "I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm like a couple making up a small spat."
How clear and how definite is your recollection of the events of that evening? I can't possibly reconcile in my mind the testimony that Marina gave with the notion that they looked like a couple that were making up from a small spat, and as far as that goes you can't either.
Mrs. PAINE - No; I can't--that may be just my interpretation.
Mr. LIEBELER - After hearing Marina's testimony and reflecting on what happened that night, do you think that this testimony is consistent with what you remember having happened there that night?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I saw nothing of the argument she describes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; I appreciate that.
Mrs. PAINE - I saw no continuing of it in the sense that they threw barbs at each other later. I don't recall any such altercation, and as I say, I just don't remember well enough whether it was that night as he had on other nights--he ate and left the table without much conversation--or just what happened. It was really my assumption, I would say, that he was there to make up the quarrel over the telephone.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you specifically discussed that with Marina that evening?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you both agreed that that was the reason he came there?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. No; I don't mean that I specifically recall real warmth being shown, but that his behavior was much as it often was and I judged that he was there to make up for the fight in some way.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you also thought from observing Marina that she was glad to have him make up the spat or that they had made the spat up?
Mrs. PAINE - I didn't see anything opposite to that, at least, so I was left with my assumption unchallenged.
Mr. LIEBELER - So, as far as you know, the events that are described by Marina's testimony that I have just read---could perfectly well have happened.
Mrs. PAINE - It could could well have happened--indeed--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - After the assassination, did you think about your previous judgment that Oswald had come out there that evening to make up the argument that he had with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - That's what I thought he must have come for.
Mr. LIEBELER - After hearing this testimony. as it occurred between Marina and Lee that evening, do you think that could have had anything to do with his attitudes and feelings the next day?
Mrs. PAINE - What you read of her testimony is news to me. I had no idea what the tone was of any words that passed between them, and as I say, all I heard that was in any way familiar to me, was that he had asked her to take an apartment--nothing about it being right away. I would say it could certainly have affected his thinking about it the next day. It is conceivable even that he hadn't seriously thought about shooting the President, but that would be sheer conjecture on my part.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have a washing machine in your house?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina use it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. If I may say--that I am disturbed by what she said. was concerned all along in this arrangement that Lee not resent my being--my offering a place for Marina, and what she said would do a good deal to raise resentment in him, I would think.
Mr. LIEBELER - Marina, of course, was aware of the fact that you did not want to conduct yourself in such a manner as to breed resentment on Oswald's part with respect to his relations with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - We never discussed it explicitly. I probably would have if my Russian had been better. She at one point said to him on a weekend when he came out that my Russian was improving while his was getting worse, and I was embarrassed to have her say this. I may have testified to this, and just pointed out that I was getting more practice than he at that time was, but my feeling was that this was a mistake on her part in terms of his feelings to say that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she say that in front of him?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; that's why I spoke up immediately and said, "Well, you know a lot more vocabulary than I did."
Mr. LIEBELER - Other witnesses have testified that Marina was not always entirely considerate of Oswald's feelings in the presence of others. Would you think that would be a fair statement?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I seldom saw them in the presence of others.
Mr. LIEBELER - In the presence of others--I mean yourself.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - In the incident you have Just related, of course, is an example.
Mrs. PAINE - I would say that it is an example and I am trying to think of others that I can make a generalization. I can't make a real generalization like that, and the reason I said, "In front of others," is because I do recall also, and I testified to this, that when they first went down to New Orleans he got an apartment for her and I felt he was very anxious that she like it, and her responses to him were just simply not as enthusiastic as it was clear he had hoped. This was not embarrassing in front of someone else in a sense it wasn't that noticeable a thing, but I did feel that she wasn't trying very hard to understand his hope to please her.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would it be a fair statement in your opinion that in point of fact both of these people were more interested in tearing each other down than they were in complementing each other or in trying to accommodate themselves to each other or to work out some sort of sincere relationship between themselves?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't think you can be that curt about it. Marina never did speak to me about wanting to leave him. She spoke, and this appears in her letters too, of wishing to get along and spoke and wrote that she was encouraged that relations seemed better. It seemed to me that she accepted this as a situation a good deal short of ideal but nonetheless the one she was in and one she was to work with.
Mr. LIEBELER - My characterization assumed a continuance of the relationship. A simple solution perhaps to many situations like this, of course, is for people to leave each other. But while they were together--I'm not trying to get you to say that this is so--I have never seen them together, of course.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - But I have seen other people in whose behavior I might find some similarities to the Oswalds or what I think the Oswalds' situation might have been on the basis of the testimony we have had. But also, you said before there was a general coolness between them--Oswald would argue about the ketchup. You indicated something about the ketchup.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Little things like this: Marina made a statement in front of you that your Russian was getting better and Oswald's was getting worse, and of course, the testimony that Marina gave herself about what happened between them--I am wondering if you know Marina Oswald or Oswald well enough to make a judgment about this sort of thing.
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I think I don't, and it's my guess that there was a lot more argument and contention between them than what I saw, just judging from what I have heard other people have said about it. I did see them trade barbs or comments and in that sense the answer was "yes" to your question of did they seem willing or out to hurt one another. I can't remember just how you phrased it. They were certainly not proceeding toward a mature relationship though--
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina ever say anything to you about sexual relations between herself and Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you testified about that previously?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you care to tell us?
Mrs. PAINE - I will say this, that it is part of what convinced me that she was interested in helping the relationship. We talked about going to Planned Parenthood to get contraceptive information there 6 weeks after the birth of Rachel, that is, we were to go then for that. It must have been myself that suggested that she discuss with one of the counselors there her feelings about their sexual relationship.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you her feelings about the sexual relationship?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I think I'll answer that simply--I don't think--let me say that I feel that the exposure of her private life has been considerable and should be limited to what is pertinent, and I think what is pertinent is whether she thought she would stay with him or not, and whether she planned to try to.
Mr. LIEBELER - Other witnesses have testified to us that Marina said in front of Oswald and in front of them that Oswald was not a satisfactory man in terms of sexual relations with her and that she did not obtain satisfaction with him and that he was, as far as she was concerned, much less than a man in his sexual relations with her, and I wonder if she told you some of those things.
Mrs. PAINE - Surely nothing was said in his presence and I am shocked to hear that she discussed it in his presence with other people, which sounds like an attempt simply to injure him rather than an attempt to help the situation that needed help. Now, no doubt my own attitudes affect how a person talks to me. She may have sensed that I was interested in a reconciliation, and their feelings, and would have known that I would not have accepted this, or perhaps not wanted to put it that way with respect to the denouncement of him, but it certainly was not put that way.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she suggest to you that she was not satisfied with her sexual relations with Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; she did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she ever tell you anything about the separation that occurred between herself and Oswald in the fall of 1962 in November?
Mrs. PAINE - She mentioned that she had once left him.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you any of the details of it?
Mrs. PAINE - Probably very few of the details--I didn't know to whom she went. She described him as being ashen and shocked when she actually did walk out and then as pleading with her to come back, after a week, which she did, and that he said everything would be different and that she commented that it wasn't different and that was virtually all that was said about it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she ever mention George De Mohrenschildt to you?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, that's how I met her.
Mr. LIEBELER - You know De Mohrenschildt yourself?
Mrs. PAINE - I have met him once at a gathering where I first met the Oswalds, so I knew that they knew them--they were the mutual friend between the hosts of the evening party.
Mr. LIEBELER - Mr. Glover?
Mrs. PAINE - And the Oswalds, but that's the only time I have seen the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she ever say anything to you about De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. PAINE - You mean that that might have been to whom she went?
Mr. LIEBELER - I just want to know if she ever discussed De Mohrenschildt with you?
Mrs. PAINE - I recall her discussing a child. Now, this is what I am not sure about, again my understanding of her Russian may have interfered. She talked, I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt has a child or it may be his, and that this person is married and has a child, but I never got that straight as to who was married.
Mr. LIEBELER - She never discussed her own feelings about De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she ever indicate that De Mohrenschildt was in any way involved or related to the separation that occurred between herself and her husband?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - I don't think I have any more questions. However, I would like to ask you one more.
You have previously been questioned about and have heard about a supposed telephone call that was supposed to have been made from Michael Paine's office to your home shortly after the assassination, and I do not represent that I have knowledge of such call--that such call was ever made, but as you know, there were rumors to the effect that this man and woman together in this conversation--that one of them said that he wasn't really responsible for the assassination and they both knew who was and I think both you and Michael have testified about this before and have denied that there was any such telephone conversation between you and anyone.
Was there a telephone conversation of any kind between you and Michael between your residence and Michael's office on November 22 or November 23, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - I have testified to the fact that Michael called--I don't know whether it was from the cafeteria where he had been eating or more likely from his office, to my home, on the 22d. He had learned of the assassination at lunchtime and called to tell me to find out if I knew it, and this was the entire substance of the conversation. I told him I did know--from watching TV.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was that the only telephone conversation between those two numbers on those 2 days that you know of?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you ever thought or had reason to believe that Marina Oswald was responsible in any way for Oswald's assassinating the President?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you never meant to suggest anything or never said anything that would suggest that to Michael or anybody else?
Mrs. PAINE - No---never--that has absolutely not occurred to me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Of course; my question doesn't mean to imply that she is so responsible. Had you and Michael ever discussed Oswald's alleged attack on General Walker?
Mrs. PAINE - You mean since the assassination of President Kennedy--have we discussed it?
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes--at any time.
Mrs. PAINE - I suppose we have--I'm sure we have talked of it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Michael ever indicate to you in any way that he had knowledge of Oswald's attack on General Walker prior to November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - I would be absolutely certain he had not--his indications were such that he had no such information.
Mr. LIEBELER - By that answer you mean to say, one, that he did not indicate to you before the assassination that he did have knowledge, and, two, after the assassination when it became known that Oswald had been involved in the General Walker shooting, Michael didn't indicate then that he had had any prior knowledge of it?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct. Of course, it wasn't until several days--more than a week after the assassination that something was printed about Oswald there having been involved in an attempt on Walker.
Mr. LIEBELER - But as far as you know, Michael knew nothing about that until he found out about it in the newspaper?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER - When the Dallas police and other authorities came out to your house, they eventually took all of Oswald's personal effects, did they not?
Mrs. PAINE - No; they did not.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have anything left in your house that belonged to Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - No; they were eventually taken by Robert Oswald in company with John Thorne and Jim Martin. That was probably the first weekend in December, or at least 2 weeks after the assassination--more likely 3.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you recall what was among these things that Robert Oswald and Mr. Martin took?
Mrs. PAINE - They took the clothes from the closet, boxes and things that I ,did not look into. I have heard from the police that it also included an old camera which they had to chase later and went up to Robert Oswald's to find it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were there any newspapers or magazines or anything like that, copies of The Militant or The Worker?
Mrs. PAINE - I did not see---most of what was done was what was put in. I busied myself in the bedroom getting out what was to go--what was the Oswald's property.
Mr. LIEBELER - Oswald did, of course, receive copies of The Worker and The Militant at your address?
Mrs. PAINE - I had seen that he received The Worker. I had never opened The Militant. I noticed on November 23 when I looked at the pile of second class mail and third class mail that was waiting for him to come that weekend that it included a copy of The Militant--that was the first I had noticed. This is after it had been in the newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't remember which issue of The Militant that was, do you?
Mrs. PAINE - It must have been the current one.
Mr. LIEBELER - What happened to that?
Mrs. PAINE - I threw it away, along with The Worker and a Russian paper, I guess. It was unopened and still in its jacket.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember when it had come?
Mrs. PAINE - During the week--well, no; it could have been during the 2 weeks since he hadn't been there over the weekend.
Mr. LIEBELER - Of course, he did come up on Thursday night?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, it wasn't discussed and it wasn't pointed out then.
Mr. LIEBELER - Well, how did he usually handle this problem with the mail--he was accustomed to receiving these pieces--the issues of the newspaper, at your address, wasn't he?
Mrs. PAINE - I handed it to him or laid them on the couch for him to look at when he arrived on Friday night.
Mr. LIEBELER - But he hadn't looked at these newspapers that had come during the period from his last visit to Thursday?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right; he had not been there.
Mr. LIEBELER - He didn't look at those on Thursday?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - How many newspapers did you throw away, do you remember what they were?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I recall particularly The Militant and The Worker and it seems to me there was the Russian Minsk paper too, but I'm not certain.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there just one copy of The Militant?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you don't remember when it had come?
Mrs. PAINE - No
Mr. LIEBELER - How many copies of The Worker?
Mrs. PAINE - One.
Mr. LIEBELER - I believe that's all. Thank you for coming in.
Mrs. PAINE - All right.