TESTIMONY OF ROBERT CARL PATTERSON
The testimony of Robert Carl Patterson was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am on the Advisory Staff of the General Counsel's office of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.
This Commission has been set up by virtue of an Executive Order from President Johnson which was issued on November 30, 1963, and also by virtue of a Joint Resolution from Congress, No. 137.
As a result of these two official Acts, the Commission has been given authority to put forth its own rules and regulations to accomplish the purpose of the investigation which we have been asked to conduct, and under these regulations I have been given authority to come here and take your deposition, Mr. Patterson.
I want to explain to you a little bit about what the purpose of the investigation is. The Commission has been asked to investigate, evaluate and report back to President Johnson upon all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.
We have asked you to come here this particular day, Mr. Patterson, because we understand that you have had some acquaintanceship with Jack Ruby. However, we are interested in anything that you might be able to tell about the assassination of the President or anything that you might think might be relevant to that.
We have a certain set of procedures that we follow in conducting these depositions
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and in asking people to come here. I presume you got a letter, did you not, from the Commission?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Signed by Mr. Rankin?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I think it was. I have it in my pocket. That's right.
(Referring to letter.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get the letter?
Mr. PATTERSON. Saturday, it was I got it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now also under the rules of the Commission I might explain to you that anybody who desires to appear here with an attorney has the right to do so, and we encourage people to do it. I notice that you are not here with an attorney, and I take it it is because you don't have any desire to have one.
However, if for any reason you think that you would want an attorney, or as this interview progresses you think you should want to be represented by an attorney, please feel free to tell me about it and we will postpone matters and continue the deposition at a later date. I presume by the fact that you are here without an attorney, that you don't desire to have anybody represent you?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I don't think I would need an attorney, because I don't think--I don't know it was that important, so far as I was concerned.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don't see any reason why you should have one either, but I want to tell you this so that you understand that you do have a right to have an attorney, and I hope that if for any reason that you think you want to be represented, feel free to state that.
Do you have any particular questions that you want to ask me about the deposition that is about to begin before I ask you to be sworn? Feel free to ask anything that comes to your mind, because I realize this is an unusual experience for everybody who appears here.
Mr. PATTERSON. I don't believe so other than how long?
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long will it take? I don't think it will take very long. I want to ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PATTERSON. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name?
Mr. PATTERSON. Robert Carl Patterson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Patterson?
Mr. PATTERSON. 902 East Waco Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in Dallas?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born?
Mr. PATTERSON. March 13, 1944.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you presently employed?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?
Mr. PATTERSON. The Beachcomber.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place is that?
Mr. PATTERSON. It is a night club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do at the Beachcomber?
Mr. PATTERSON. Entertain.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind?
Mr. PATTERSON. Musician and singer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What instruments do you play?
Mr. PATTERSON. My major instrument is the guitar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you sing any particular kind of songs?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I do mostly rhythm and blues and a few classicals.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been an entertainer?
Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately 5 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a high school graduate?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. I'm in college.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to college?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are attending college right now?
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Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you attending college?
Mr. PATTERSON. Arlington State.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in the Dallas area?
Mr. PATTERSON. It is in Arlington, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What are you majoring in?
Mr. PATTERSON. Music.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were interviewed sometime in December by an agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Do you recall that interview?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time you indicated that you had worked on some occasions for Eva Grant, Ruby's sister?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first work for Eva Grant?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don't know the exact date. In fact, I can't even recall the month, but it was, I guess you could say, the last of the summer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This summer, 1963, was the first time?
Mr. PATTERSON. 1963; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So the first time you worked for Eva Grant would have been in the summer of 1963?
Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately. As far as I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much would you receive for a one night engagement with Mrs. Grant?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, the pay varied from--I just played a one hour show, say, about 10 or 15 minutes with a saxophone player. That is myself and my band, and I would say the average pay I received was $8 for these 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sometimes receive more and sometimes receive less?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the least you received?
Mr. PATTERSON. $4.00.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the most that you received?
Mr. PATTERSON. $10.00.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you play there?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don't know for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you always appear with your saxophone player?
Mr. PATTERSON. Eighty percent of the time I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they pay the saxophone player separately?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they sometimes pay you?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you would pay the saxophone player?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are nodding yes?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever consult with Jack Ruby or with Eva Grant about playing at Jack's Carousel Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. No. It was my understanding that he had different type music there than what I played.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How were you known to the Rubys; by what name?
Mr. PATTERSON. Mrs. Grant called me Bobby Patterson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had occasion to talk with Jack Ruby?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, I talked with him several times about playing. He wanted me to start playing in the Vegas, and we talked about salary and hours and so forth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Patterson, I am going to hand you what I have marked Exhibit 5357, which is a photograph of a page out of that notebook, and I have marked this photograph, Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5357, Robert C. Patterson, and I signed my name to it. Previously this same photograph has been marked as Crafard Exhibit No. 5225, and as Armstrong Exhibit No. 5305-E.
I want to hand you this and ask you to look at the notations on that notebook.
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If you can't read them, indicate to me that you can't and I will try to read them for you.
Mr. PATTERSON. I see Billy Brook. I can't make out the second line. Bobby Patterson, six something, special friend, and then a ten and two. No, and quotation marks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have to keep your voice up so she can hear you.
Mr. PATTERSON. Three .... I can't make out that word--I can't make out the next word, and 2409 Maple, LA 6-7568 for Robert Patterson--no, Robert is all.
Three--now I can't make out the next--six eight three seven four nine thousand eight, oh six, fifty by a hundred and ninety-two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of those notations shown in that photograph as having anything to do with you?
Mr. PATTERSON. It would be my guess that these were some notations of where he paid somebody, somebody paid us for playing one night, because I think this Billy Brook is a singer. I remember Billy Brook that used to sing over at the Vegas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he sing there while you also entertained there?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, a few times he was there. None of this other, I don't know what that could be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If that notation Bobby Patterson and friends had to do with you, who would the friend be?
Mr. PATTERSON. Robert Simpson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the saxophone player?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a rate that was paid, six dollars to you and the additional four dollars to Simpson?
Mr. PATTERSON. It could have been. We usually received the same pay. If I got $5, he usually received $5. I don't ever recall making any more than he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is as much as you can remember about that?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has anything come to your attention in connection with Jack Ruby or in connection with any of the work you have done for Jack or his sister, Mrs. Grant, that you think would be of value to the Commission?
Mr. PATTERSON. No, I can't recall anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you actually talk with Jack Ruby?
Mr. PATTERSON. I couldn't pinpoint it to a certain number of times, but I can approximate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us your best estimate?
Mr. PATTERSON. You mean on the phone and in person?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PATTERSON. About 15 times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many of these times would have been in person?
Mr. PATTERSON. Not 10 times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the times that you met him in person at the Vegas Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him besides at the Vegas Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. He came to my house one night to talk to my mother about me playing for him, and him taking over as my manager and promoting a record for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. PATTERSON. Some time in the first of November, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of record was he interested in promoting?
Mr. PATTERSON. Just a rock n roll record that he wanted to promote for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you already cut the record?
Mr. PATTERSON. I already record for another company and he said he had some connections with a better record company that he could, you know, he wanted me to record some new records.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who do you record for?
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Mr. PATTERSON. Future.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that office located?
Mr. PATTERSON. Arkansas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Arkansas?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have to go up to Arkansas to cut the record?
Mr. PATTERSON. No, we cut here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many records have you cut for Future?
Mr. PATTERSON. Two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Jack about promoting a particular song?
Mr. PATTERSON. Not a particular song.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But about promoting you?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you and what did you say to him?
Mr. PATTERSON. He said he had connections with Reprise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. R-e-p-r-i-s-e?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. It is pronounced Reprise, with which Frank Sinatra has something to do with, and never did say what Frank Sinatra had to do with it, but he said he knew some people in this line that he would have no trouble getting a record promoted and distributed nationally.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your response?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I told him if he could get this done, fine, I would consider recording for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make an effort to have that recording done?
Mr. PATTERSON. No. He was trying to get me to play in the Vegas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the Vegas or the Carousel?
Mr. PATTERSON. In the Vegas. And I never did think too much about the recording, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time he talked to you about the recording, had you ever played at the Vegas?"
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what do you mean he was trying to get you to play there?
Mr. PATTERSON. The band he had was leaving, quitting, had quit already, I would say, and they had been there a long time, for a number of years, and they quit. And he wanted my band to start playing there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you feel about playing at the Vegas?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I didn't really want to because the pay was too low and the hours were too long. But he propositioned me to cut the number of hours because I was going to college, and the other saxophone player was too going to college, and the other two guys worked.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So did you finally agree to play at the Vegas with your band?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last that you talked to him about playing at the Vegas?
Mr. PATTERSON. About--I don't know the exact--it was one Sunday evening, I would say, approximately two weeks before the incident.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the assassination of the President?
Mr. PATTERSON. Could have been a week and a half or a week anyway in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time Jack didn't have a band playing at the Vegas?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He did have a band?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. He had hired one band and one band had quit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He hired another one?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the plan was that he would have had your band replace the one that was already playing there?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack Ruby any place except at your house and the Vegas Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, he came out to hear us. We were playing at SMU college and he came out to hear the band.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. PATTERSON. This was the same Sunday that I talked to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other places that you talked to him?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I had an interview on the radio one night at the Circle Bowl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where?
Mr. PATTERSON. Circle Bowl; bowling alley.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What radio station?
Mr. PATTERSON. KBOX.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be interviewed there?
Mr. PATTERSON. It was the first night I met Jack Ruby. I was playing at the Vegas. I did the show, and Mrs. Grant called me over and introduced me to him, and he said, "I like the way you play. Do you want to talk on the radio?" So I said, "Sure." So he said, "Follow me," and me and Robert Simpson followed him over to the Circle Bowl, and Jack West was doing his night program and he interviewed me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. PATTERSON. It was the first night that I met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Back in the summer sometime, 1963?
Mr. PATTERSON. No, I didn't know him, but I would say a month or month and a half at the most prior to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he called or spoke to you either in person or on the telephone about 15 times in that month or month and a half?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. I mean in the same day and stuff like that, you know, on different occasions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on any of these occasions that you saw him in person, did he have anybody else with him?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. The night I met him, he had somebody else with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At SMU?
Mr. PATTERSON. No. I met him at the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he have with him?
Mr. PATTERSON. He introduced me to a guy that was entertaining at the Carousel, Billy DeMar. I think that is the last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else with him that night?
Mr. PATTERSON. A little short guy. I don't know his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a Negro boy or a white one?
Mr. PATTERSON. I think he was just--he was an old man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how old a man would you say he was?
Mr. PATTERSON. I would say he was in his late forties.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall was he?
Mr. PATTERSON. About my size, about 5'2".
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his build, heavy, medium or thin man?
Mr. PATTERSON. For his size, he was kind of fat. Stomach went like that [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he balding, or did he have all of his hair?
Mr. PATTERSON. I think he was balding.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he wore glasses?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a business associate of Jack Ruby's?
Mr. PATTERSON. I couldn't tell. I didn't ride in the same car with him or nothing. I just saw him with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This other fellow didn't do any of the talking?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, we were talking about promoting the record and he said, "Jack will put you over, don't worry."
He says, "If he likes you, he likes you, and if he don't like you, he don't like you." I remember him saying that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see this man again?
Mr. PATTERSON. No, I never did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any other people with Jack?
Mr. PATTERSON. His roommate, George. I don't remember his last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you meet George?
Mr. PATTERSON. At their apartment.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go up to Jack's apartment?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, it was the same night that he came over to SMU to listen at us, and he said, "What are you fixing to do?"
I said, "I am going home." It was on a Sunday after we got through playing and he said, "Why don't you come by and let's discuss, you know, the pay that I would pay you and the hours and so forth." So he didn't live too far from my house, and we stopped by there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You and your trumpet player?
Mr. PATTERSON. No, just me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jack--was Senator with Jack at SMU?
Mr. PATTERSON. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was George, was he with Jack?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At SMU?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you got to Jack's apartment, the roommate was there, George?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there?
Mr. PATTERSON. The dog, and another woman and a man came in. I had seen her over to the club working. I guess she was related to him in some way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You had seen her at the Vegas Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been Mrs. Grant?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the night did this man and woman come in?
Mr. PATTERSON. I guess it was around 8 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the apartment that night?
Mr. PATTERSON. About 20 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice anything unusual about the apartment?
Mr. PATTERSON. No. Just an apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the only time you ever saw George?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the assassination of the President was it that you went to Jack's apartment?
Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately 2 weeks or 2 1/2, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is your recollection that this was a Sunday?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have any record at home from which you could determine when that was? Any record of being paid at SMU which would indicate when it was?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The man who came into the apartment that Sunday night with the woman, how old a man did he appear to be?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don't recall, but I would say he was in his middle thirties or maybe 40. I didn't pay that much attention, because I don't think I ever seen him before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a Jewish man?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don't know. I don't think I ever heard him talk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall do you recall him being?
Mr. PATTERSON. Maybe 5' 11", something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his build, fat, medium, thin?
Mr. PATTERSON. He was fairly thin, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the only occasion that you were ever in Jack's apartment?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet him any other places?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of the people who worked at the Carousel Club outside of Billy DeMar?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that you could tell us about Jack Ruby, about your meetings with him or acquaintanceship with him?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, like I say, I hadn't known him but about a month and a half. Maybe a month. It might have been 3 weeks prior to this incident, and I didn't know him that well, but he was trying to get us to play over there, because a band he had had for so long had left, and the one he had wasn't doing as good a job as he felt they should, and having a lot of trouble. Actually, my business dealings with Jack were with Mrs. Grant, and he came in one night while I was performing and she called me over and introduced me to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Patterson, I want to hand you a copy of a report that the FBI made after the interview with you on December 16, 1963. It is a copy of an interview report made by Special Agent James E. Garris, FBI, and pertains to an interview with you on the 16th of December 1963.
I don't know if you had a chance to read it, but, if you would, read it over and tell me if there are any additions or corrections that you would make to that other than what you have already told me here today, and also, if you would, indicate to me if that is a true and accurate report of the interview that you had with Mr. Garris? [Document marked Patterson Exhibit No. 5358.]
Mr. PATTERSON. This part where it says intermittently for several years, I wouldn't say it was several years. More like a year, maybe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated to me that the first time you ever worked for Eva Grant was back in the summer of 1963?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That wouldn't even be a year. Is there something that makes you think that you worked for or knew her even before then?
Mr. PATTERSON. Sure. All the bands, more or less. I mean, knew of the place, you know, because I had a friend, Joe Johnson was playing there, and occasionally we would stop by and sit in, play a few numbers, so therefore----
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. PATTERSON. I guess that is what I meant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you would qualify the statement which reads as follows: "He has worked for Eva Grant, Jack Ruby's sister, at the Vegas Club in Dallas intermittently for several years as a guitar player and singer."
You would state instead that for maybe a year before this interview on December 16, you had visited the Vegas Club occasionally to see your friend Joe Johnson, and that on those occasions you had sat in with Joe Johnson's band?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But that you never actually began to work there for money until the summer of 1963?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I couldn't pinpoint it whether it was the summer, beginning or end of the summer, really. I don't actually recall. I would have to go back and get--she put a few advertisements in the paper with my name, and I can go back and look at them. I don't remember, I played so many places.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you belong to any musicians' union?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I did once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a member of any union when you were playing for Eva Grant at the Vegas Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any agent at the tame you were playing for Eva Grant at the Vegas Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you said already that you don't have anything more that you could add, and I take it that there is nothing more that you would change in this interview report, is that correct? Or would you make some more changes in the interview report other than what we have already discussed today?
Mr. PATTERSON. About Jack Ruby?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, or about anything that appears in this interview report. You hesitate like you think there are some other things you could tell us. Let me encourage you to come forward and tell us everything that you do know.
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, this is all I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I would like to ask if you in the future, or if you should remember anything or anything should come to your attention which could be
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of any assistance to the Commission, please get in touch with the Commission or, if it would probably be easier to get in touch with the FBI or Secret Service, let me know what it is.
I appreciate your coming out here this afternoon and speaking with us. You have had to wait around a long time to get here, and I certainly want to apologize for inconveniencing you and tell you again that we appreciate very much the time you have given us, and the help you have provided here, and it's been very nice meeting you.
Mr. PATTERSON. Thank you.