TESTIMONY OF RALPH PAUL
The testimony of Ralph Paul was taken at 8:03 p.m., on April 15, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Ralph Paul.
Mr. Paul, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of President Johnson's Commission to investigate the death of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, issued by the President's Commission, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by Congress in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you, Mr. Paul. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts related to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Paul, the nature of the inquiry tonight is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his associates, and his business and social friends and so forth. Now, I believe you have appeared here as a result of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel of the Commission, advising that we would be here and requesting that you appear. Was that letter received by you more than 3 days ago?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand up and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Paul, will you state your name for the record, please?
Mr. PAUL. Ralph Paul.
Mr. HUBERT. And how old are you, Mr. Paul?
Mr. PAUL I will be 65 this December.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
Mr. PAUL. Right now I live with some friends--I'm building a house in Arlington, 1602 Browning Drive.
Mr. HUBERT. The letter of request to appear was addressed to the correct place?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; both places.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you are the owner or manager, and that is one of the things we want to clarify, of the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. I am the owner.
Mr. HUBERT. You are the owner?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the corporation?
Mr. PAUL. That is Bappo [spelling] B-a-p-p-o.
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Mr. HUBERT. That is Bappo, Inc., isn't it?
Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is a closely held corporation, I take it?
Mr. PAUL. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, do you own all the stock?
Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And, of course, the corporation owns the business and you manage the business?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any other occupation at the present time?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you lived in Dallas?
Mr. PAUL. In Dallas--itself?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's put it in the Dallas area, first. I mean Dallas-Fort Worth area.
Mr. PAUL. Okay--I came in December 1947.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live prior to that time?
Mr. PAUL. New York, New York City.
Mr. HUBERT. In New York City?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think that you originally are an immigrant, is that correct?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That information, I believe is information in the statement you have given.
Mr. PAUL. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what it was that caused you to come to Texas from New York?
Mr. PAUL. I was connected with some show people and they came down here and told me how great Texas was, and I came down, and in fact I came down and leased the club, leased the Sky Club at first, and we stayed there a month and then we bought it.
Mr. HUBERT. Leased which one?
Mr. PAUL. The Sky Club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in 1947?
Mr. PAUL. That's actually in 1948, I mean, I came to Dallas 2 days before New Years or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Two days before New Years in 1947, so it's practically 1948?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any connections here when you came?
Mr. PAUL. No--I didn't know anybody here.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "we", you mean you and your wife?
Mr. PAUL. No--that entertainer and her husband brought me down here.
Mr. HUBERT. What were their names?
Mr. PAUL. Joe Bonds and Dale Belmont--it's also in there.
Mr. HUBERT. They were husband and wife?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And they had been here before?
Mr. PAUL. They had been here before.
Mr. HUBERT. And they interested you in coming into this area?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave all your business and social connections in New York?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you married?
Mr. PAUL No; not at that time I came down from New York.
Mr. HUBERT. You have been married since?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You are not married at all?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You never have been married?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And is your wife dead or are you divorced from her?
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Mr. PAUL. We got divorced in 1931.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have never remarried?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you supposed to supply capital to the venture?
Mr. PAUL. What venture?
Mr. HUBERT. With Joe Bonds?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say it was in a very short period after arriving here you got interested in a place called the Sky Club?
Mr. PAUL. No; they interested me to come down here--they interested me to come down here and rent the Sky Club from a man called Satterwhite, and after we stayed there a month, he decided to sell it to us and then is when we bought it.
Mr. HUBERT. Who put up the capital?
Mr. PAUL. We put up some capital--the rest of it was by notes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the corporation formed then?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So, it was owned by you and Bonds?
Mr. PAUL. Ralph Paul and Joe Bonds.
Mr. HUBERT. Half and half?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that venture last?
Mr. PAUL. I sold out my interest in May of 1948.
Mr. HUBERT. So, it lasted a very short period of time?
Mr. PAUL Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you sell it to?
Mr. PAUL. I sold it to a man from Miami that came up here looking for business--I can't think of his name Rosenheim.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his first name?
Mr. PAUL. I think it's some place in this--that is, his first name is.
Mr. HUBERT. That's all right, we will get to that. What sort of place was the Sky Club--what was it?
Mr. PAUL. A nightclub.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located?
Mr. PAUL. On the Fort Worth Cutoff. I think the address was six something Fort Worth Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. What venture did you go into after that?
Mr. PAUL. I opened up a bar in downtown Dallas called the Blue Bonnet, underneath the Blue Bonnet Hotel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you rent the premises there and operate the bar yourself?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any partners in that?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you maintain that occupation?
Mr. PAUL. I maintained it close to 5 years. I opened it in November and sold it 5 years later in September.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you would have opened it in November 1948?
Mr. PAUL. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And you would have sold it?
Mr. PAUL. In September 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. 1953?
Mr. PAUL. No; 1953--that's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do after 1953?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I didn't do nothing for several months and then I and Chris Semos opened up the Miramar Restaurant on Fort Worth Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was a partnership too?
Mr. PAUL Yes; that was a partnership.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not a corporation?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, this Chris Semos, did he put up the money?
Mr. PAUL. We both put up some money and the rest was notes.
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Mr. HUBERT. And what was the name of that?
Mr. PAUL. Miramar Restaurant.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a restaurant?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And nightclub, was it?
Mr. PAUL. No, just a restaurant and drive-in.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you operate that?
Mr. PAUL. Close to 3 years--about 3 years less 2 months.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you operated that until, say, July of----
Mr. PAUL. No; I operated that until February.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what year?
Mr. PAUL. Of 1957.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell that, then?
Mr. PAUL. I sold it to Chris Semos.
Mr. HUBERT. You sold the whole thing to him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you take a note from him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in your income tax returns for some later years you show interest received from Chris Semos of about $250 a month; is that interest on that note?
Mr. PAUL. No; it's $125 a month for seven years, that includes $100 a month payments and $25 interest.
Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon--that's what I meant to say.
Mr. PAUL. That's $250 a year--and one time it was $250 because he wouldn't pay 2 months.
Mr. HUBERT. The interest you show as received, I said $250 a month, I meant to say it was $250 a year.
Mr. PAUL. That's right, $250 altogether, and one year he didn't pay full so it was only $250.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that loan paid out now?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So, in February of 1957 you didn't have any business connections?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Sir?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir. I went into partners with Jack Ruby's brother, Sam, and in a little ice cream place. We opened up April 25, 1957, and closed it--we didn't close, we gave the lease away so they wouldn't hold us responsible for the lease, and we lost some money because the fixtures that we bought was more.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you operate that?
Mr. PAUL. May, June, and July.
Mr. HUBERT. Just a few months?
Mr. PAUL. We saw it didn't make, so there was no use in wasting time.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your next business venture then?
Mr. PAUL. Next, I didn't go in business, I was helping Jack Ruby in the Vegas Club from August until the following year--May.
Mr. HUBERT. August of what year?
Mr. PAUL. August 1957, to May 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. You were with Ruby, you say, at the Vegas Club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I just was helping him.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean on a salary?
Mr. PAUL. Well, no--it wasn't really a salary. I helped him out on Friday and Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any compensation at all?
Mr. PAUL. Well, the only compensation I received he owed me some money, he paid me back.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps at that point then we should go back to--so that you may tell us when you first met Jack Ruby.
Mr. PAUL. Like I said over here, it was one of these improvised meetings that you meet somebody that comes over to you and introduces himself.
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Mr. HUBERT. When was it, about; do you know?
Mr. PAUL. 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. In 1958?
Mr. PAUL. I mean, in 1948.
Mr. HUBERT. In 1948?
Mr. PAUL. Those years fly back so fast, 1948. That's the year I was up to the Sky Club yet.
Mr. HUBERT. And he simply came over and introduced himself to you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; he says, "I'm Jack Ruby. I own the Silver Spur." I don't think it was known as the Silver Spur, but I can't recall the name it was known then. It keeps on running in my mind that it wasn't the Silver Spur--it was another name, but I can't remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it the Singapore?
Mr. PAUL. That's it.
Mr. HUBERT. It was the Singapore?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he told you he was the owner of the Singapore?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that became the Silver Spur.
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business connections with Ruby at all until he got to owe you some money?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I'll tell you the whole thing--the whole story.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; that's best--that's the best way to do it.
Mr. PAUL. Well, one day he came in with a friend of his--he's now deceased.
Mr. HUBERT. If you could fix the time and place--as you go--it would be helpful, and I know it's a long time ago but perhaps we will have to take an approximation.
Mr. PAUL. Maybe it was 1949 or 1950 or 1951, I can't remember those years, and he asked me for a loan.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what the friend's name was? The one that he came in with?
Mr. PAUL. He's now deceased, but it was Marty Gimpel.
Mr. HUBERT. And the two of them came to you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And wanted to borrow some money?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much was it they wanted to borrow?
Mr. PAUL. $2,000.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you lend it to them?
Mr. PAUL. He said to me, "I've got a show, I want to buy the Bob Wills Ranch House"--did you get this one in there any place he said, "I've got to show it," and he says, "All I want to do is show them that I've got the money and I'll give it back to you the following day." Well, not that I knew the guy so much, but you know, you can't turn people down like that if he wants to pay me the next day, so I loaned him $2,000.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a note?
Mr. PAUL. No; he was going to pay me back the next day. Well, the next day didn't come. Subsequently he roped me in for $3,700.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean--more?
Mr. PAUL. With the $2,000---$3,700 altogether.
Mr. HUBERT. Making $1,700 more?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, why don't you just tell us in your own words just how this relationship developed and so forth?
Mr. PAUL. It's silly but true, and when I tell it, it's really funny. The next time he comes he says, "They didn't think it enough money to show for the place, I've got to show them $3,000," so I gave him another $1,000.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been just a few days after?
Mr. PAUL. Yes--that's 2 days afterwards. Instead of the next day coming--he came 2 days and he says, "This is it positively--I've just got to show them
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the money." Well, he didn't come around that Saturday, and subsequently he came around and he said he had to use the money to get into the business there. What do you do with a person--you're just stuck. You can't do nothing until then--you can't do nothing with them. That went on for a couple months, and now, listen to this: One day, on a Friday--that's how the other $700 is going to come in--on a Friday he comes in and he says, "If I don't get the money to buy beer, I've got to close it down." Well, you've got to think--you're already stuck with $3,000--that's how the payments came when I was with him at the Vegas Club-- you understand me?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; so, you gave him another $700 on that occasion?
Mr. PAUL Yes; but when he sold the Silver Spur at that time, he gave me money back, because I have the note on the Silver Spur. He gave me the note on the Silver Spur for the money, so in order to release the note, he gave me $1,000.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that's a different transaction from the $3,700; is it?
Mr. PAUL. That's from the $3,700. You see, I took a note afterwards, when he went bankrupt--when he went with the Bob Wills Ranch House, he gave me a note on the Silver Spur.
Mr. HUBERT. For what amount?
Mr. PAUL. For the $3,700.
Mr. HUBERT. Up to that time you didn't have a note, but when the Ranch House folded----
Mr. PAUL. Folded--it didn't fold, his partner bought him out--the two of them--he couldn't--he didn't get any money out of it anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, he went into the Silver Spur?
Mr. PAUL. No; he was in the Silver Spur before.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in the Silver Spur already?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in both?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; he was in both.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you got him to give you a note to show the $3,700?
Mr. PAUL. But when he sold it, I think he sold it for $2,200, or $2,700, but he had to pay so many people that he gave me a thousand.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when he sold the Silver Spur----
Mr. PAUL. I had to give him the note--he couldn't sell it without the note.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the note secured in any way?
Mr. PAUL. No; it was registered.
Mr. HUBERT. A registered note, which made it a lien against the Silver Spur?
Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that if he was going to sell it to anybody he had to clear the note, he had to get some sort of cancellation as to registration and that required the note?
Mr. PAUL. I gave him the note.
Mr. HUBERT. And you gave him the note for $1,000.
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That left $2,700 still owing?
Mr. PAUL. Not exactly $2,700--he paid me in little sums like 50 or 100--I think it left about $2,200.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time?
Mr. PAUL. At that time.
Mr. HUBERT. And, of course, you had no more note?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; but when I helped him at the club, he gave me $50 or $25 or anything he could get ahold of to give me, so that eventually the note went down to $1,200, and that's what it remained on that deal.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, from August 1957 to May 1958, you helped out at the Vegas, which he was then operating?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Spur had gone?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then the indebtedness got reduced to about $1,200 you think as of May 1958?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. Is there any further story to that note, or is that money still owing?
Mr., PAUL. That money is still owing.
Mr. HUBERT. That has never been paid?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have no note for it?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after May 1958, what did you do?
Mr. PAUL. I bought into the Bull Pen.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was with Semos?
Mr. PAUL. No, no; that was with Bowman.
Mr. HUBERT. With Bowman?
Mr. PAUL. Bowman had a partner, and he got a notice from the building department--what is it, VA or something like that--they wanted him--as an examiner, so he sold out to me.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, originally you and Bowman were in as a partnership alone, or was it a corporation when it started?
Mr. PAUL No, no; when I bought this man out it was a stepfather then--when I bought him out--Bowman and I were partners--50-50 partners. Then we made it a corporation.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the year of the incorporation?
Mr. PAUL. I think it was 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. 1960, but you had operated prior to that as a 50-50 partnership with Bowman?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, you became a corporation and when did you buy out Bowman completely so that you are now full owner?
Mr. PAUL. January 1, 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after you left this association with Ruby in May of 1958, did you have any further business or social relationship with him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were friends.
Mr. HUBERT. You had been friends actually for that time almost 10 years, hadn't you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were friends from the time he loaned the money from me, let's put it that way. We had to be friends.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him quite often?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How did that come about?
Mr. PAUL. Well, the nights I had off, you see, we used to work 1 day and 1 night with my partners. If I worked nights, the next day he worked nights, so we swung it around, so the nights I had off, either I would go to the Vegas Club--at that time he had the Vegas Club alone, and after that we would go out to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Was his sister, Eva Grant, with the Vegas at that time? At the very beginning?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When did she come in, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. When he opened up--not the Carousel, but the first one which one was that?
Mr. HUBERT. The Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. The Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. What year was that--about?
Mr. PAUL. 1959 or 1960--1 think it was 1959.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you known her before?
Mr. PAUL.. Just a casual acquaintance, you know, I mean--I must have seen her once or twice.
Mr. HUBERT. She didn't live in Dallas?
Mr. PAUL. No; I think she was out on the road some place selling merchandise.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further business relations with Sam Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. No; just that ice cream place.
Mr. HUBERT. That's all you ever had with him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you ever have any financial interest in the Vegas?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't now and never have had any?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any, or have you ever had any financial interest in the Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. Actually--no--not interest at that time, but when I loaned him money on the Sovereign Club, that was after he went out with his partner. He and his partner couldn't get along--Slayton.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Joe Slayton?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They had started the Sovereign Club and they couldn't get along and Jack needed some money?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You loaned him some money, then, did you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I think I loaned him for 3 months' rent or 4 months' rent--$550 a month, because that was the time he couldn't pay the rent.
Mr. HUBERT. You loaned that in cash?
Mr. PAUL. No; I give him a check--not in cash.
Mr. HUBERT. You gave him a check?
Mr. PAUL. A check--I gave him a check.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any evidence of indebtedness?
Mr. PAUL. No; the following year he gave me 50 percent of the club, telling me that if the thing don't go, the fixtures and everything should represent my money.
Mr. HUBERT. You had no note about it?
Mr. PAUL. No; he gave it to me I knew about it.
Mr. HUBERT. No; but did he give you a note?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of written agreement?
Mr. PAUL. It was a stock receipt.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a corporation?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he gave you a stock certificate?
Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how many shares it was for?
Mr. PAUL. Five hundred.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that half of the corporation?
Mr. PAUL. Half of the place.
Mr. HUBERT. And he endorsed that over to you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, yes; I think he did--he and Slayton--I think did.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the consideration, that is to say, what money did you pay for that?
Mr. PAUL. To open up the Carousel----
Mr. HUBERT. No; I'm talking about the Sovereign.
Mr. PAUL. The Sovereign was no consideration--just the stock deal, that if anything happens to the club I should get some money out of it for the fixtures.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as a matter of fact you had actually loaned him 4 months' rent at $550, whatever that is?
Mr. PAUL. About $2,200.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; $2,200, so, was it considered that that loan or that indebtedness was the consideration for the stock?
Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Or, was the stock merely to secure it?
Mr. PAUL. That's the security of that money--the stock was the security of the money.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, if he had paid the money back to you, he was entitled to the stock?
Mr. PAUL. That's right. In fact, he took the stock certificate one time; he thought he would be able to sell the club.
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Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mr. PAUL. He thought he would be able to sell the club, so I give him the stock certificates; you know--you deal with people in money, that's true, and you are very careful, but sometimes friendship overshadows a lot of things.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you say there that therefore there was a close friendship between you and Jack. Did you continue during that time on a friendly basis; that is to say, visiting at the Vegas or Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were always friends.
Mr. HUBERT. You think you saw him two or three times a week during that time?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be from 1958 on?
Mr. PAUL. No; prior to that I saw him a lot of times before.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack was never married, was he?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the Sovereign located? Was it the same place as the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the changeover from the Sovereign to the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; I forced him to change that over.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; tell us about that, if you can tell us the dates and times, as close as you can.
Mr. PAUL. And, he needed money; the Sovereign Club was dead, as far as he was concerned. Either he closed it or either he closes it or he does something else with it. So, I told him to change it to a burlesque house and I will give him $1,650 to pay more rent on the place so he could go on, so I loaned him $1,650 more to turn it over to a burlesque. That's when he changed it from the Sovereign Club, a private club, to a burlesque house, which was an open place.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, with the Sovereign Club you had to belong to the club?
Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a bottle club, as required by the laws of Texas?
Mr. PAUL. That's right; he had a bottle club.
Mr. HUBERT. If you belonged to the club, you could buy liquor in the club, and if you didn't you couldn't, and it was your thought that the thing could be a success if its nature were changed?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; well, it's an open place.
Mr. HUBERT. It's an open place, a burlesque house, but, of course, you couldn't sell hard liquor?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But it would set beer?
Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. But your proposition to him was that you would advance $1,650 in the new venture to at least pay the rent for some time?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the incorporation of the S. & R., Inc.?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; the S. & R. started the thing. That was the first deal; S. & R. is Slayton and Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "the first deal," are you speaking of the corporation that existed with reference to the Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you aware that there was a corporation called Sovereign, Inc., that owned the Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that he endorsed over as security 500 of the shares?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was not the S. & R. shares with the stock certificates, was it?
Mr. PAUL. The S. & R. was the Sovereign Club. The original Sovereign Club
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was the S. & R. because Slayton didn't belong to anything else but the Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can get this straight; you mentioned that in order to start the Sovereign Club you advanced $1,650?
Mr. PAUL. No; that's after Slayton went out.
Mr. HUBERT. After Slayton went out?
Mr. PAUL. Jack Ruby owned the whole thing then.
Mr. HUBERT. He did?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you loaned him 3 or 4 months' rent?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In return for which he pledged to you or gave you as security 500 shares of the stock of the corporation?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But I want to know what corporation was that; was that the Sovereign?
Mr. PAUL. S.& R.
Mr. HUBERT. And what year would that have been in?
Mr. PAUL. In 1959 or 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, apparently you were not aware that there was a Sovereign, Inc.; a corporation called Sovereign, Inc.?
Mr. PAUL. No; all I knew was that it was the S. & R.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, when the place was changed to the Carousel, what happened to your 500 shares?
Mr. PAUL. It's still the same thing; Carousel is only a name. It's still S. & R.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you still have those shares?
Mr. PAUL. No; I gave them over to his sister.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mr. PAUL. February 14.
Mr. HUBERT. Of this year?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had held those shares, half of the ownership, as it were, of the Sovereign Club originally, and subsequently the Carousel, until recently?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you get any income from the corporation?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any kind of pay?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Of any sort; Jack never paid you any money through the years at all?
Mr. PAUL. He never paid me a dime.
Mr. HUBERT. And I gather from that that he stands owing you now $1,200, which was left from the original debt, about $2,200 that you loaned him for which you got a security---500 shares of a corporation--and then another $1,650 that you loaned him in order to open up the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. A total of about $5,050, and is it your thought that he still owes you that much money?
Mr. PAUL. Well, what am I going to do?
Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to find out just what the picture was, as to that. He never paid you any dividends?
Mr. PAUL. He never had any money to pay me dividends; he always used to work from his pocket.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the Carousel very much?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir; once or twice a week.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you usually go on Saturday nights?
Mr. PAUL. Not every Saturday night; mostly Friday nights.
Mr. HUBERT. There is some evidence that on those occasions that you went, there were some sort of payments made to you, Mr. Paul, and that's what I want to find out, if there were any. I don't know what the nature of them was; that's why I'm asking you about it. If there were payments on a loan or payments because of your ownership of the Carousel.
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Mr. PAUL. Not that I know of; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your statement to me is that Jack Ruby never paid you any money at all?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Either in the way of repaying the loan or in the way of dividends? Or in the way of profits?
Mr. PAUL. In the first place, until the .list year that he was there, he was losing money.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. At the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it make some money in the last year?
Mr. PAUL. In the last year I think it made some money, but he was so much in the hole that he had to pay everybody else. When he was arrested--now, mind you, when he was arrested--you wouldn't think that an electric company--you could owe them that much money, but there was $175 or $180 a month, and he owed them over $600.
Mr. HUBERT. The electric company?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; the electric company--Dallas Electric Lights, and the telephone company--$153. He kept on owing everybody money.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, you didn't get any payments of money from him?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. For your share of what any profits might have been or dividends or interest or repayment of loan or in any way at all; is that correct?
Mr. PAUL. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you gave the 500 shares that you held up until February 14 of this year to Eva Grant?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us why you did that?
Mr. PAUL. Well, for one reason, I couldn't run the club; I tried to run it, but I couldn't run it. I lost about $3,000 in the time I run it from the 25th of November until the 14th of February.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out who owned the other 500 shares?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it Jack?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know; I was never interested to know all the other facts, because I never figured to get any money out of the place anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Earl Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HuBERT. That's Jack's brother?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever met him prior to November 24 or November 25?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. PAUL. In Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come here often?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I think I met him twice or three times.
Mr. HUBERT. In your whole life, until the 25th?
Mr. PAUL. Until the 25th, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any interest in the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he claim any?
Mr. PAUL. I still don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Iris brother Hyman?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I met him one time.
Mr. HUBERT. Just one time?
Mr. PAUL. The Friday before the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. Before the murder?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never met him before?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about his sister, Eileen?
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Mr. PAUL No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know her at all?
Mr. PAUL. I never heard of her.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think he has another sister called Mrs. Anna Volpert.
Mr. PAUL No; I don't know her, either.
Mr. HUBERT. You never met any of the other brothers and Risers?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; Sam and his wife, and Eva and Earl, and that's all.
Mr. HUBERT. And then Hyman?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Sam, of course, you have seen more often than any of them?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; Sam--well, we were partners for about 3 or 4 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but you had no other business relations after that.
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Welt, can you tell me why it was that this man owed you this kind of money and you had the stock at least for security for something; you gave it to Eva; what caused that to come about; did she ask you, or did you volunteer to do that?
Mr. PAUL. No; I voluntarily gave it to her so she could sell the club.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your thought was that it wasn't anything to you?
Mr. PAUL I told her, "I don't want nothing out of it; I don't want nothing, I take my loss." And I let her have it. If she could sell it--to take the money and use it for herself, because she's a poor widow and she will verify everything I said--just the words.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you that she had the other 500 shares?
Mr. PAUL. No; she just told me last week--she was over at my place, and she told me she didn't know who had the other 500 shares.
Mr. HUBERT. Has anyone asked Earl about it?
Mr. PAUL. I didn't ask Earl about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack himself?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Jack since he has been in jail?
Mr. PAUL. I have seen him three times since he has been in there one time I seen him--about 4 weeks ago--the time before I went to New York, the week before I went to New York I was down there, the 27th, I think it was, and I came back the 2d.
Mr. HUBERT. That was of April?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you saw him once just before that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you had seen him since he had been in jail?
Mr. PAUL. No; I saw him twice when he first got into jail--twice I saw him then.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was the last time you saw him in jail and. then you saw him two other times before that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When were those times--about?
Mr. PAUL. I think about the second week and the fourth week--I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with him his business?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir--no, sir; I didn't discuss it--I didn't discuss nothing--how could you discuss a man's business when he is held for murder?
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I didn't mean that you would bring up the subject, but I was wondering if perhaps he had asked about it?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you have been unable to get from any source Jack or Earl or Eva or Sam or anybody else where the other 500 shares are?
Mr. PAUL That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you gave your 500 you held to her--you received nothing in return for it?
Mr. PAUL. No; what I told her to do was to pay the Government.
Mr. HUBERT. And from all you know, she doesn't even know where the other 500 shares are?
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Mr. PAUL. No; that's what she told me.
Mr. HUBERT. I noticed on your income tax return, too, that you had a capital loss that you have spread over some years of $7,000; I think, last year was about the last of it--I think you used about $1,000 a year; is that in connection with any of this, or is that another transaction?
Mr. PAUL. No; that's from the Miramar and the ice cream place that was in 1957. The place wasn't in existence in 1957.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of George Senator?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him, please, Mr. Paul?
Mr. PAUL. Well, he used to be a salesman, a dry goods salesman of men's apparel, let's call it, shirts and so forth.
Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale?
Mr. PAUL. No; retail--maybe wholesale, I don't know--he was working for some firm on the road. Well, it's Jack that made a friend of him you know what I mean, coming up to the club. They got friendly and in the last year I think he went into a novelty business with somebody--am I right?
Mr. HUBERT. That's the year 1963?
Mr. PAUL. I think so---some cars and little different things, a lot of a little truck, and then finally about--oh, maybe in July or August----
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; they pushed him out, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean his company did?
Mr. PAUL. It isn't a company, they pushed, him out because he wasn't selling anything, or he was using up the money or something to that effect, and they pushed him out and he wasn't doing nothing and he was living with another man and they had an apartment and the other man got married and he didn't have no money, so Jack told him he could live with him until he could get another job, but that's George Senator.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known George?
Mr. PAUL. About 2 years.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think Ruby knew him about the same length of time?
Mr. PAUL. I think so--maybe a little longer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any work around the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. Who?
Mr. HUBERT. George Senator?
Mr. PAUL. I think he used to help him out on Saturday night. I don't know whether he paid him or not. Now, I would like to know who told you I get money out of the Carousel? I wish I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I can't answer that.
Mr. PAUL. I know, but somebody must have told you I get money out of that. You know what I used to do--I used to count the money for him at the end of the night because he was such a flip, you know what I mean, he used to argue with everybody that would count the money for him, and hold it until he went downstairs, so I gave it to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that--that's interesting.
Mr. PAUL. Well, if I be there on Saturday night or Friday night, at the end of the night, he would say to me, "Clear the register." So, I would count the money. He says, "Let the boy from the bar give you the money and hold it until we come downstairs and I go to the car." And that's how I got the money.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you would be seen counting the money?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that's right--that's why I wanted to know who told you.
Mr. HUBERT. But that's all it amounted to, just-that you had counted the money for him?
Mr. PAUL. That's all--I would bring it downstairs--he never carried it with him actually--I don't know why he carried so much money the last time. Actually, he used to throw it in the back of the car in the trunk and he said, "That's the place that nobody looks."
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you have known him to go home with money in the sack and he never put it on his person at all?
Mr. PAUL. No--in the back of the car.
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Mr. HUBERT. Even when he parked his car at night he wouldn't take it upstairs?
Mr. PAUL. What do you mean--no; he never took it up to the house he left it in the car.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to know how much money he had around like that?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you know, I suppose, from the newspapers and w. hat you have heard that when he was arrested he had altogether on his person and in the car an so forth, something in excess----
Mr. PAUL. It was in the car too, wasn't it?
Mr. HUBERT. Some of it, yes; but to your knowledge, most of the time he didn't keep it on his person at all?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the gun, did he keep that on his person?
Mr. PAUL. It's a funny thing about the gun--he would always carry it in a bag, in a deposit bag, a money bag.
Mr. HUBERT. A canvas bag, and----
Mr. PAUL. Unless he went some place special, because he always said somebody might want to beat him up.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by "some place special"--like what?
Mr. PAUL. Well, like if he was going out on a date or something, you know, I mean he wouldn't carry the bag. I mean, if he went to a show or something, he wouldn't carry the bag.
Mr. HUBERT. But he took his gun?
Mr. PAUL. No; he left it in the bag. The only time he would carry the gun--the bag was if he wasn't going to no place or he went home if he went to eat, he would take it with him.
Mr. HUBERT. The gun or the bag?
Mr. PAUL. The bag with the gun.
Mr. HUBERT. From his car?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But yet he would leave it outside all night?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In the car?
Mr. PAUL. In the car.
Mr. HUBERT. But let me see if I get this straight--if he was going to eat, he would go to his car, take the money out of the trunk----
Mr. PAUL. No; the bag.
Mr. HUBERT. The bag--with the gun only?
Mr. PAUL. The gun.
Mr. HUBERT. He would leave the money there and take the bag with the gun, and then carried the gun in that fashion?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, many times he would be driving my car, he would leave the bag and the money on the bottom and lock the car.
Mr. HUBERT. And the gun would be in there with the bag and the money?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you say that there were occasions when he would take the gun alone, leaving the money behind, but the gun not in a holster, but in a bag?
Mr. PAUL. But in a bag---so everybody thought he was carrying money.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he ever owned a holster?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him carry the gun in a pocket or tucked in his waist?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I never did.
Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever seen him carry his gun was when he carried it in a bag?
Mr. PAUL. In the bag.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Gruber that lives out in California?
Mr. PAUL. Gruber?
Mr. HUBERT. Gruber [spelling] G-r-u-b-e-r.
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Mr. PAUL. That name doesn't sound familiar to me. I'll tell you, Jack had a million friends that I would never remember their names anyway. He used to introduce me and the name just flew by.
Mr. HUBERT. What about this boy Larry Crafard or Curtis Laverne Crafard, as he was called---do you know anything about him, that young man that was around the club for the last month or so?
Mr. PAUL. I think he was cleaning up the place every day and used to sleep there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. PAUL. Jack brought up so many--no; I never did talk to him, but I never talked to those people myself that Jack used to pick up in the street and bring them up to work and do something, and in a couple of weeks they disappeared.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was not a peculiar thing at all for Jack to bring in someone?
Mr. PAUL. Take them home to sleep--a man that hasn't got a place to live. I used to say to Jack, "Suppose he robs you?" He says, "So, he robs me."
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Louis McWillie?
Mr. PAUL. McWillie? I knew him a long time ago. I think he is in--not Vegas--what is the other place?
Mr. HUBERT. Vegas is right.
Mr. PAUL. Vegas--is he?
Mr. HUBERT. Tell me what you know about him, was he ever in Dallas?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; sure, he was in Dallas a long time.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his business when he was here?
Mr. PAUL. When he come he used to go to golf places and bet on golf.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about golf tournaments and golf games?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, wasn't he a gambler in general--all sorts of gambling?
Mr. PAUL. I think so--I never had any dealings with him either.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of Ruby's dealings with him?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, do you know that sometime in 1959, probably around September or Labor Day, Jack went down to Havana, Cuba?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And stayed with McWillie?
Mr. PAUL. Well, McWillie sent him the carfare McWillie was running the gambling house down there for the I don't know what it was---Batista or some of their people somebody else down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know and how you found out about it?
Mr. PAUL Well, Jack told me.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he toll you?
Mr. PAUL. He told me he sent him money to come down there for a vacation.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack supposed to work or was it just a vacation?
Mr. PAUL. Just a vacation.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any reason why, or did Jack tell you any reason why, McWillie would be interested in financing a vacation for Jack?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know, but I think Jack was a close friend of his. Actually, he thought the whole world was built around McWillie. Actually--and I never could see it, and I never used to go out with him when McWillie was around.
Mr. HUBERT. You disliked McWillie?
Mr. PAUL. No: but I didn't care too much for his personality.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever express yourself in that way to Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his answer?
Mr. PAUL. Well, he told me that he thinks he is a great guy--Jack says. Well, actually, I for one never meet too many friends with Jack, and Jack made everybody a friend and I haven't got too many friends. I just work to make a living. I'm not interested in a whole lot of other things.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you are saying is that Jack was a man who made a lot of friends?
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Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were one of his friends?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had fewer friends than he did?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you considered yourself one of his best friends?
Mr. PAUL. Yes--Jack's best friend.
Mr. HUBERT. Both ways?
Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long he stayed in Havana?
Mr. PAUL. A week or 10 days.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he went to Miami at that time or New Orleans?
Mr. PAUL. I think he stopped in Miami and went from Miami to Cuba and he came back to Miami. I think he had to do that anyway--it wasn't a straight flight.
Mr. HUBERT. But I take it that you are assuming that it was not--what I wanted to get at was whether Jack had ever told you--that's the way you would know.
Mr. PAUL. I'm telling you that he did.
Mr. HUBERT. That he told you that he went from here to Miami?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And from Miami down to Havana?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And on the route back, he came back through Miami?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I think that's what he told me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other trips that he has taken?
Mr. PAUL. The only time when I was at the Vegas Club, he went to--what are those Springs over there Hot Springs--I think 2 weekends in a row.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other travels that he might have made?
Mr. PAUL. He went to New York.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. PAUL. Last year to see the AGVA president.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in regard to the trouble he was having with the Weinsteins?
Mr. PAUL. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that was in August, was it not?
Mr. PAUL. No; it was earlier than August, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of his trip to New Orleans last year?
Mr. PAUL. Yes--he went to--somebody told him about this strip down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Bourbon Street?
Mr. PAUL. Bourbon Street and he went down to catch her act.
Mr. HUBERT. He went for what purpose?
Mr. PAUL. To catch her act--to catch the girts act, so he could book her.
Mr. HUBERT. He wanted to look at the girts act to see if he could get any talent to come up here?
Mr. PAUL. The reason why--she asked for a lot of money.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, what is her name----
Mr. HUBERT. Jada?
Mr. PAUL. Jada.
Mr. HUBERT. He went down to Bourbon Street to see if he could get any strip-tease acts?
Mr. PAUL. That was the one he was sent to look at.
Mr. HUBERT. He was especially sent for Jada?
Mr. PAUL. This Earl Norman--the M.C.--was down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Earl Norman?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and he saw her and he asked Jack to go down and see and get her, that she was going to bring him a lot of business.
Mr. HUBERT. And you knew this because Jack kept you in touch with the things he. was doing and he made a contract with Jada, did he?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; she worked "at the club quite a while.
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Mr. HUBERT. She brought in some money, as I understand?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and no. At first she was doing all right, and then she fell off to nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. She quit, I think, before her contract was over?
Mr. PAUL. Actually, it was a verbal contract--the last. You see, they had a contract to start with and then it became a verbal contract--she works as long as she wants to--as long as he wants to keep her.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the first contract was a written contract but of limited time, and when it ran out it was on a weekly basis?
Mr. PAUL. On a weekly basis.
Mr. HUBERT. During last fall, say from the time Jack came back from New York until November, do you think you saw him two or three times a week then? Or spoke to him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you are in a position to say whether or not he left town during any of those times during the period after he came back from New York--say, September, October, and November?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don't quite understand your answer--are you in a position to say?
Mr. PAUL. He didn't leave town.
Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion?
Mr. PAUL. The only place I know he went is New Orleans and New York, last year.
Mr. HUBERT. And in your opinion if he had gone anyplace else, you would have known it?
Mr. PAUL. I would have known it. In fact, I was the only one that knew he went to New York, but when he went to New Orleans everybody knew because that was another thing--that was no secret.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are basing your opinion on the knowledge of his movements by the fact that you were in contact with him both in person and by telephone several times a week all through this period?
Mr. PAUL. Almost every day.
Mr. HUBERT. You would telephone one another?
Mr. PAUL. What?
Mr. HUBERT. You would telephone one another or see one another?
Mr. PAUL. Yes--telephone mostly. In the last year, I think I used to go to the club twice a week, Tuesday and Friday, because all the other nights I was working.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, those were your nights off?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went almost 100 percent of the time that you had nights off, Tuesday and Friday, you went to the Carousel and you would stay there all evening?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I wouldn't come until late anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. You would come late and stay until it closed?
Mr. PAUL. And then go for coffee or something to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. And in other than those days you would get in touch by telephone?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose just friendship?
Mr. PAUL. That's all--and, he had trouble with the Weinsteins and he always asked for advice. That's why he used to call me all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. The telephone records, as you know, show quite a number of calls between you.
Mr. PAUL. They don't?
Mr. HUBERT. They do, and I was wondering just what those calls were about.
Mr. PAUL. Well, every day he would find something else he would like to do--he would think of doing, or the union didn't do right by him, the AGVA, or the girls didn't do right--that's why he called me almost every day.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he would call you if he had trouble with the girls?
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Mr. PAUL. If he had trouble with any of the girls, he would call me.
Mr. HUBERT. If he had trouble with the one with the Weinsteins, he would call you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and the AGVA people--you see, they've got a board of directors and each one takes a part, and if this one doesn't do right--that was almost consistently--he called on that.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?
Mr. PAUL. On Friday--I was working. It was the lunch hour, you know, and lunch hour is our busiest hour. I'm always there on the lunch hour, and my landlord's son called me on the telephone and told me the President was shot--they got it on the radio, and so I turned on the radio and then we all listened, everybody in the place naturally, because there was some excitement--people hollered and cried all over the place, and then everybody was listening to the radio to see what the result would be, and at 2 o'clock I went home, or a little after 2--generally I stayed until 2 o'clock on Friday. A little after 2--and when I got home Jack called me and he said, "Did you hear what happened?" I said, "Yes; I heard it on the air." He says, "Isn't that a terrible thing?" I said, "Yes; Jack." He said, "I made up my mind. I'm going to close it down." I said, "Well, I can't close down, I've got an eating place."
Mr. HUBERT. And did he suggest to you that you should close down your place?
Mr. PAUL. That's what he said, "Ain't you going to close?" I said, "No; I've got an eating place." I says, "You can do whatever you want."
Mr. HUBERT. Did he discuss with you whether he should close down?
Mr. PAUL. No; he didn't discuss it. He told me he was going to close down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you for how long?
Mr. PAUL Three days.
Mr. HUBERT. That was at 2 o'clock?
Mr. PAUL. Friday at 2--Friday night and Saturday night and Sunday night.
Mr. HUBERT. He was going to close up?
Mr. PAUL. Friday night and Saturday and Sunday nights.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he had chosen those 3 nights?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; in honor of the President being shot--he was heartbroken.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, why 3 nights instead of 2 or 4?
Mr. PAUL That's what I told him. I said to him, "Are the other clubs going to close?" He said, "I don't care about the other clubs."
Mr. HUBERT. Where was he calling you from, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know--he didn't say where he was calling me from. He generally called me from a telephone booth or the club--not so much from his home.
Mr. HUBERT. What would seem to be his condition when you were talking to him, emotionally and otherwise?
Mr. PAUL. Very bad emotionally--he said, "I can't believe it."
Mr. HUBERT. What was it based upon, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know--if you don't see the person, you can't tell the person on a telephone how he reacts or----
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, you have known him for a good many years.
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; I've known Jack for so many years and he has always been that way, you know, reaction--fast--punch line--got to do this right away [indicating]. With him it wasn't--he thought and did. It wasn't a second thought.
Mr. HUBERT. But you are quite clear that when he called you about 2 o'clock----
Mr. PAUL. That's about a little after the time I got home was a quarter to 3.
Mr. HUBERT. And that's the first time you had heard from him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The President was already dead?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was known he was dead?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about Tippit?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I didn't know nothing about Tippit. I didn't know nothing about Tippit.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't tell you?
Mr. PAUL. No; he didn't tell me anything about Tippit.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he said he had made up his mind he was going to close up the club for 3 days already?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't ask you--he told you?
Mr. PAUL. No; he told me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention he thought that the death of the President would hurt business in the Dallas area and therefore hurt his business?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last--about?
Mr. PAUL. Three or 4 minutes--he says, "It's a terrible, terrible thing." Then, when I got back to the place in the evening he called me.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I came back at 5 and I think he called me at 6.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he was then?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; he says, "It's such a terrible thing that I'm going to go to synagogue." He says, "Do you want to come along?" I says, "No; I don't go to the synagogue, I'm not going to make a fool out of myself."
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go to the synagogue?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go often?
Mr. PAUL. For a year he went every--should I say every day.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after his father's death?
Mr. PAUL That was after his father died--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What's part of the Jewish religion that you should do that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that's true.
Mr. HUBERT. And he followed that?
Mr. PAUL. He followed that very closely.
Mr. HUBERT. After that, did he go very much?
Mr. PAUL. No; once in a while on holidays--he made it a habit of going on holidays to the synagogue.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the Jewish holidays?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't go every week?
Mr. PAUL. No--no.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a surprise to you that he would be going to the synagogue?
Mr. PAUL. To tell you the truth, I didn't--anything Jack does is no surprise to me.
Mr. HUBERT. I'm sorry (addressing the reporter) I didn't get that, did you get that?
The REPORTER. "To tell you the truth, anything Jack does is no surprise to me."
Mr. HUBERT. But it was not his normal custom?
Mr. PAUL. No; but he says he's going to pray because a thing like that happened.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, that, you think, was about what time?
Mr. PAUL. About 6 o'clock in the evening.
Mr. HUBERT. And that conversation was just a matter of a few minutes, too?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear from him next?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know whether it was that night again, after he got out of synagogue I can't recall. But, he didn't call me again--I know--until Saturday night, or until Saturday afternoon, and he said, "Did you see my ad in the paper?" I says, "What paper?" Well, Saturday is a pretty bad paper, and I said, "What paper?" He says, "In the Times Herald and the News." I said, "What did
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you put?" He said, "That I'm closing down for 3 days." I said, "That's what you said to me yesterday." He said, "But, it's in the paper." I said, "All right, I believe you."
Mr. HUBERT. You think that was Saturday afternoon?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not spoken to him or seen him since the night before?
Mr. PAUL. No--I didn't see him--no; when I saw him was Thursday night.
Mr. HUBERT. You were at the club then?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; then he called me Saturday when I got home.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I didn't feel too good that night, and I left home--I generally work until 1 o'clock in the morning. I left at 11 o'clock and he said he called the place and they told him I went home and they told him I didn't feel well, and he says, "What's wrong with you?" And I says, "I've got a cold," and then he told me that he was downtown and that nobody was doing any business, so I says to him, "Well, if nobody is doing any business, I guess you had better close."
Mr. HUBERT. And what did he say to that?
Mr. PAUL. Then he called me back one more time--I didn't give you this before because I didn't--then he called me back one more time and told me that he was over at his sister's house, Eva's house, and Eva was crying and they are both crying.
Mr. HUBERT. This was Saturday night?
Mr. PAUL. This was Saturday night--that was late. I said, "Jack, I don't feel good. Let me go to sleep."
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first call on Saturday night did the second call come?
Mr. PAUL. The first call come, I think, was 9:30 or 10 o'clock, and the second call I think was about 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. You had left at what time?
Mr. PAUL. I left the place about 9 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Because of your feeling ill?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he reached you shortly after you got there?
Mr. PAUL. No, it was about an hour or so later.
Mr. HUBERT. You were in bed already?
Mr. PAUL. I was in bed already--that was the last time I spoke to him, I says, "Jack, let me go to sleep because I don't feel well."
Mr. HUBERT. That was on the second call?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, the second call was at what time?
Mr. PAUL. About 11 or 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. The first call was about 9:30?
Mr. PAUL. No; about 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. About 10:30, and the second call about an hour after?
Mr. PAUL. No; I left the place, but it just takes me about 15 or 20 minutes to get home, and I doctored myself up with some hot tea and so forth--it must have taken about another half hour, so it must have been about 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the first call--he had called your place and found out you were not feeling well?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; he called me and I told him I wasn't feeling well and he told me that nobody downtown was doing any business.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you told him he ought to be glad he stopped, because if nobody was doing any business he might as well be closed, and that was about the subject of that conversation?
Mr. PAUL. That's--that was that conversation. That's the subject, and then he called me back and he told me he was over at his sister's house and his sister was crying and he was crying with her on account of the President, and that's the last I spoke to him.
Mr. HUBERT. You could hear her crying or he told you?
Mr. PAUL. He just told me.
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Mr. HUBERT. What about his own crying, could you tell that he was crying, did he seem to be crying?
Mr. PAUL. No; he wasn't crying then--when he spoke to me.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't crying then--in other words, what he was telling you was that he and his sister had been crying?
Mr. PAUL. Had been crying.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that all he wanted to tell you?
Mr. PAUL. That's all.
Mr. HUBERT. And you in effect told him you were sick and not to bother you any more, would that be about it?
Mr. PAUL. And I went to sleep and that's the last I talked to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when was your next contact with Jack?
Mr. PAUL. When he was in jail.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear about the Oswald matter?
Mr. PAUL. Sunday morning--I was--I had just finished making out the payroll.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; when John Jackson, my manager, called and the girl answered the phone and she says--he says, "Oswald is shot."
Mr. HUBERT. He said that to you?
Mr. PAUL. To the girl, and the girl relayed it to me. Just, "Oswald was shot," so I looked up and I says, "So what?" I mean--just the regular coincidence. "So what?" 5 minutes later a fellow that lived around the corner that knew me--he used to work at the Sky Club years ago, named Howard something, came in and says, "Jack Ruby shot Oswald."
Mr. HUBERT. That was in the Bull Pen at Arlington?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that man's name?
Mr. PAUL. Howard something.
Mr. HUBERT. That's his first name?
Mr. PAUL. Howard is his first name--I can't think of the second name--he's just a customer there--he used to work a long time ago at the Sky Club--I think he was--he used to be their cabinet man there, so I says, "Go away." I says, "Wait, I'll call the house." So, I called the house and nobody answered.
Mr. HUBERT. You called Jack's house?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I called Jack's house and nobody answered, so Jackson and his wife came in and said, "Yes, we just saw it on TV that Jack Ruby shot Oswald." So, I says, "All right"--that's when I called Tom Howard.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was it you called Howard, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I would say it was about in between 11:30 and 12 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between 10 minutes or 15 minutes after the shooting, to 30 to 40 minutes after the shooting?
Mr. PAUL Well, you know--shooting--we didn't think he killed him.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand.
Mr. PAUL. So, I says, "Tom," well Tom has been my lawyer for the longest time.
Mr. HUBERT. He has been your lawyer?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and Jack's too.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack's too?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I says, "Tom, see what you could do for Jack. I heard he shot Oswald." He says, "Okay," and that's it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he was not aware that Oswald had been shot?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know whether he did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you when you talked to him that he was not aware that Ruby had shot him?
Mr. PAUL. No; I just told him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be surprised?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to indicate he knew about it?
Mr. PAUL. No; he didn't. He says, "Okay, I'll take care of it." Those are the words he said.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you asked him to see what he could do and
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without indicating whether he knew about it or not, as far as you could tell, he says, "I'll see what I can do." And that was the end of the conversation?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any appointment to meet him yourself?
Mr. PAUL. Who--Tom?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. No; I went down to his office anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you were at the Bull Pen at that conversation and you went where?
Mr. PAUL. Downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. PAUL. I went to the--John and I and the girl went down to the police station and I saw Tom Howard there.
Mr. HUBERT. Inside the station?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Whereabouts was it, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. It was right off the entrance to the--as you walk in-do you know where the entrance is when you walk in?
Mr. HUBERT. From Harwood Street?
Mr. PAUL. What?
Mr. HUBERT. On Harwood Street?
Mr. PAUL. No; it's on Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. Not the basement ramp?
Mr. PAUL. The basement ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. You went through the basement ramp?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that, about?
Mr. PAUL. Maybe 1 o'clock, and so we meet him, and he says, "They won't let you see him anyway, you had better go over and stay at the office. I think it's on television." So we walked over to his office and we watched television until about 3 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Jackson and you and Howard?
Mr. PAUL. No; not Howard--a girl Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. Tammi True and you went to Howard's office?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Howard was there?
Mr. PAUL. No; I was in the courthouse--he sent us over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Howard sent you to his office to watch television?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; to watch television.
Mr. HUBERT. And he went where, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he did?
Mr. PAUL. No; he--some more lawyers they all got together and then they left again and they came back again and riding into town, that's when we heard that Oswald was dead--died.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Howard's office, you knew he had died?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Howard tell you he had tried to get a writ of habeas corpus for Ruby?
Mr. PAUL Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what happened to that proceeding, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. So you stayed there, you said, until about when?
Mr. PAUL. 3 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Tammi True?
Mr. PAUL. That's one of the girls that worked at the club before she was an entertainer.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she at the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. No; she lives in Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. How did she come to be riding with you and Jackson?
Mr. PAUL. She came up to the Bull Pen when she heard about Jack Ruby.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive in her car?
Mr. PAUL. No; in Jackson's car.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when she heard it at her home in Fort Worth, she came to your place and the three of you came downtown and stayed until 3 o'clock?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Mr. PAUL I went back--went back home.
Mr. HUBERT. The three of you?
Mr. PAUL. No; I went as far as--we took Tammi back and then I let Jackson off and I went back to Dallas and went to the movies.
Mr. HUBERT. You took Tammi back to Fort Worth?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then came back to Arlington?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And left off Jackson?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I went back to the movies, because when I came in, I says, "Anybody looking for me," to the cashier, and she says, "A reporter and a photographer was calling you."
Mr. HUBERT. That was at the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you drove in your car alone and you went to the movies and I think you said you went to the Majestic?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get there?
Mr. PAUL. I got there about 4:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you park your car some place?
Mr. PAUL. I parked it on the lot. You see, Sunday, you don't have to have no parking.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed in the Majestic and watched the show?
Mr. PAUL. I stayed there about an hour--I wasn't interested too much in the show, I just wanted to get away from everything.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come out of the show?
Mr. PAUL. It must have been about, oh, 6 something--I went back and I went to Jackson's house.
Mr. HUBERT. You went into the show about what time--4:30, you think?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until about 6, when you came out, about an hour and a half?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, what did you do?
Mr. PAUL. I went back and went over to Jackson's house.
Mr. HUBERT. That's on what street and where?
Mr. PAUL. That's where I'm living now--Browning Street.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went to his house--go ahead?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and stayed there about an hour or so.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was there with you?
Mr. PAUL. The girls.
Mr. HUBERT. What girls?
Mr. PAUL. Jackson's girls.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean his daughters?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; two girls; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was just the three of you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; they made me something to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. And you got there about what time?
Mr. PAUL. Then, I called the place and Jackson told me that the FBI was looking for me and I kept on wondering what they wanted with me, and so we stayed over there, and then his sister had had a little gathering over at her house.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean Eva?
Mr. PAUL. No; Jackson's sister, so we went over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Her name is Mrs. Gable?
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Mr. PAUL. Yes; we had some ice cream and John walked in with the two FBI men; that was 9 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mrs. Bowman?
Mr. PAUL. Mrs. Bowman?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?
Mr. PAUL. She's my ex-partner's wife.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with her at that time?
Mr. PAUL. We were living together in a big house.
Mr. HUBERT. On that date?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that's way out in the country.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see her that day?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Not at all?
Mr. PAUL. I don't think I did--I might have seen her when I left the house.
Mr. HUBERT. And what time would that have been?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't see her after Oswald was shot?
Mr. PAUL. I don't think so--I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go back to the house after Oswald was shot?
Mr. PAUL. I think I went from the movies to the house and changed clothes--what I think I did, and then went over to Jackson's house.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it that you decided to take over the operation of the club?
Mr. PAUL. That Monday after the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ask you to do so?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I didn't see Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva ask you to do so?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, why did you do it?
Mr. PAUL. Personally, I don't know--I just did it on the spur of the moment, and I have been sorry every day after that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Jack, or send word to him that you were going to do this?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask--well, weren't you interested in salvaging some of the debt that was owed to you if you could?
Mr. PAUL. If I could.
Mr. HUBERT. That's what I meant--that was why you did it?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; but I saw what I was getting into--it turned out to be a lemon.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it turned out, as you say, to be a lemon, but your motive was to see if you could operate it to see if anything could be made out of it, to see if you could recover some of the debt that was owed to you?
Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time, I suppose, if you could make the thing a success--whatever Jack's interest was, it would be helpful to him, too? Is that a fair statement of what was running in your mind?
Mr. PAUL. Well, naturally--I mean----
Mr. HUBERT. I don't want to put words in your mouth--if it's not so, tell me.
Mr. PAUL. Actually, it was on the spur of the moment that I did it, and I learned right away it cost me money.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva object?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any of his brothers or sisters object?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you actually operated it for approximately 2 1/2 months?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then why did you close it?
Mr. PAUL. Well, maybe, I would still be operating it--no, I wasn't going to operate it any more. I told Eva, "I'm going to give you the stock," and let her
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do whatever she wanted to with it, because I couldn't do it any more. The second thing is, I had a broken foot--I couldn't make it any more over there, I was only coming up once a week, and the thing was shot, and then on the same day I decided to that, the liquor control board closed it up. They didn't close it up, they sent me a notice that I can't sell beer, so I might as well close it up.
Mr. HUBERT. And it hasn't been opened since then?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You paid the rent and all the bills during that time?
Mr. PAUL. When I was operating it?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you came out a deficit of about $3,000?
Mr. PAUL. At least--maybe more--I paid the Government $1,770.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that for?
Mr. PAUL. Back taxes.
Mr. HUBERT. Excise taxes?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; it was for September, November, October, December.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that excise tax?
Mr. PAUL. Excise tax--that's the cabaret tax, they call it.
Mr. HUBERT. It doesn't have anything to do with the social security or withholding taxes?
Mr. PAUL. I paid them some of that too--there was only one person that was getting paid--all the entertainers got their own--they don't go under social security.
Mr. HUBERT. They are self-employed?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a woman by the name of Bertha Cheek?
Mr. PAUL. What is her name?
Mr. HUBERT. Bertha Cheek.
Mr. PAUL. It doesn't even ring a bell.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby ever tell you that just towards the end, in a week or two prior to the death of Oswald, that he was trying to borrow some money from her, and get her interested in opening a new cabaret?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Or doing something to the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; that name don't even ring a bell to me.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know her at all and he never mentioned her?
Mr. PAUL. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he mention that he was trying to raise any money?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I think perhaps you would be in as good a position as anybody else to tell us some things about Jack's personal life. As you may know, there have been some rumors at least, that maybe Jack was a homosexual?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, no--there was rumors?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, you have heard the rumors?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. We would like your opinion on that subject.
Mr. PAUL. Oh, no--no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You knew the man a long time?
Mr. PAUL. A long time.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion he was not a homosexual?
Mr. PAUL. Positively.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship with women generally; do you know?
Mr. PAUL. Well, he liked women.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have affairs with them?
Mr. PAUL. Yes--just different times, different women all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he ever particularly attached to one?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. PAUL. Let me remember that name again--mention some names, I can't think of the name.
Mr. HUBERT. Alice Nichols?
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Mr. PAUL. Alice Nichols--yes, I think they were going around together for about 10 or 11 years. I used to go out with them too.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship to the girls who used to work in his place, was it strictly a business relationship?
Mr. PAUL. With the girls--strictly business. He would like to make a girl that would come up there, but not the girls that was working for him.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he wouldn't try to date the strippers or waitresses?
Mr. PAUL. No--we used to take them out for coffee after they got through, but that's all.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like to show you a picture, or rather several pictures which have already been identified, and I'm not going to give them a new identification number. I'm going to show you a group of five pictures, exact copies of which have already been identified in connection with the deposition of Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibits 5300 A through F and ask you if it is not so that Jack Ruby appears in each one of those pictures?
Mr. PAUL. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are two girls in there?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. One has blonde hair and is wearing dark clothes and the other is--has darker hair and is wearing a striped dress.
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us who they are, referring first to the one with the blonde hair with the black dress?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, that's Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the other one?
Mr. PAUL. This is Alice somebody--I don't know the second name anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Alice Anderson?
Mr. PAUL. Yes--I never knew her second name. She worked there.
Mr. HUBERT. When did she work there?
Mr. PAUL. Alice was a waitress or a champagne girl, what you call them, and she was the strip.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, Kathy Kay was a strip?
Mr. PAUL. Kathy Kay was a strip.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had the girl that you identify as Alice, to wit, the girl in those pictures with the striped dress, how long had she been working at the club?
Mr. PAUL. Well, from the time he made a burlesque out of it, she used to work a couple of weeks, a couple of months, then quit and come back and work another couple of months or couple of weeks and then quit. She was never a steady girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Is she married?
Mr. PAUL. I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he date her?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you positive or is it that you just don't know?
Mr. PAUL. That I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. But I take it from the way you answered the question that you knew him so well that you probably would have known it if he had?
Mr. PAUL. Yes--if he did I would have known.
Mr. HUBERT. He would tell you that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you about his affairs with women, is that right?
Mr. PAUL. No; not always--he told me about affairs he wanted to tell me about, let's put it that way.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there lots of them?
Mr. PAUL. Well, there were quite a few.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of a girl by the name of Joyce McDonald?
Mr. PAUL. Joyce?
Mr. HUBERT. I think her stage name was Joy Dale?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize her in the photo I am now showing you?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, I recognize her.
Mr. HUBERT. This photograph has been identified in connection with the deposition
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of Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibit 5301 A through E, and there are five pictures here showing a man and two girls--Jack Ruby is the man, of course; is that right?
Mr. PAUL. I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. And the girl on your right, as you look at the picture?
Mr. PAUL. I'm not seeing it.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to identify both girls, but do so in such a way that the record can show it--in other words, when you say, "this" it won't show up on the record, but when you say "this" you must say the girl on the left-hand side of the picture as you are looking at it--is that who you mean?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that's Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the girl called Joyce Day?
Mr. PAUL. Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the one on the right-hand side of the picture?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; the one on the right-hand side is--what do you call her again--that little girl up that went to court?
Mr. HUBERT. Little Lynn?
Mr. PAUL. Little Lynn.
Mr. HUBERT. That's Karen Bennett, did you know her as that?
Mr. PAUL. No; I never knew her as that, all I knew her was Little Lynn.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the relationship between this Dale girl and Jack Ruby was that you have identified in Exhibit 5301 A through E, the deposition of Andrew Armstrong?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know what Andrew knew, but I know nothing about her. I know she worked there--she was a stripper.
Mr. HUBERT. So far as you know, was there any romantic relationship or sex relationship?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know. I wouldn't say "yes" and I wouldn't say "no."
Mr. HUBERT. You just don't know?
Mr. PAUL. Anything I don't know--I can't say I know.
Mr. HUBERT. That's absolutely correct. I am simply asking you because you have been a friend a long time and as you said a moment ago, he told you some of the things that he wanted you to know?
Mr. PAUL. Well; I don't think he wanted me to know about any of the girls that worked in the club, even if he did have affairs with them--that would be--I probably would say something to him, but on the outside, I know a lot of girls that he had affairs with.
Mr. HUBERT. I'm now going to show you a picture which has been identified as one of the pictures in Exhibit 5303 A through M deposition on Andrew Armstrong, a picture which shows a girl in a bikini suit, a blond girl. There seems to be two sailors in the picture and on the right-hand side of the picture as you look at it, there is a rather large man in a white shirt with his left elbow leaning on the stage, and I ask you if you know who the girl is, do you recognize her?
Mr. PAUL. That's the same Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. That's Kathy Kay?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the man, the fat man, that I have referred to with the white shirt, the very heavy man?
Mr. PAUL. This one over here?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him there?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You never did?
Mr. PAUL. No--there isn't a familiar face in there. What is he supposed to be? No answers [laughing].
Mr. HUBERT. I will show you now two pictures that have been previously identified as Exhibit 5304 A and B in connection with the deposition of Andrew Armstrong, the first one showing a girl serving a man who is seated, and there is apparently a boy in the background, and I ask you if you can identify that place, first of all, is that the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. No.
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Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the place at all?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the girl is who is in the stripper suit?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the man is, sitting down at the table?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that bartender is standing at the back?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Mickey Ryan?
Mr. PAUL. No--I might have heard the name but I never knew a guy with a name like that.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't recognize the man at the bar?
Mr. PAUL. No--it's not in the Carousel, that's for sure. The Carousel had no cloths on the tables.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did it have a bar?
Mr. PAUL. It had a bar.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, not for liquor.
Mr. PAUL. No; that's right--that looks like a private club.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you familiar with the notebooks and memo books that Ruby kept?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see them at all?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that one of the girls in the club had a boy friend named Tommy, do you know who that was--Tommy?
Mr. PAUL. The only real boy friends that I can give you the name of and she got married to the boy recently.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. PAUL. He was in the police department, but I can't think of his name. He made her give up the business and they got married and went to California, but you know, talking about boy friends, those girls have boy friends all the time--they are different boy friends--you never know which one is which. I can't remember one name from another.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, here's what I wanted to get at--after you took over the club, you apparently hired someone to collect the cover charge at the front?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He was a gray-haired man, I'm told?
Mr. PAUL. No, it was Leo Torti.
Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling] T-o-r-t-i?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have a gray-haired man there?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get him, had he been there before?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He had worked there before?
Mr. PAUL. Well, he didn't actually work, he used to help Eva, and when Eva closed that place down he came to help there, but he never got paid for anything--just, I took him home and I took him out for a bite to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a man would he have been?
Mr. PAUL. Forty or forty something--he isn't gray. I'm the only gray man that was there.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no gray man who was on the door collecting?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva close up the Vegas?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, she closed it up and then she sold it.
Mr. HUBERT. When--before the Carousel was closed up?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes, she closed it up right after New Year's.
Mr. HUBERT. Right after Ruby was put in jail?
Mr. PAUL. No, right after New Year's.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean she sold it?
Mr. PAUL. She sold it.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did she sell it to?
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Mr. PAUL. She sold it to two men and a woman that formed a corporation and bought it. It's still called the Vegas Club--they've got it in the paper "under new management--Vegas Club." I don't even know who they are.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I handed you at the beginning of the deposition, or even before the deposition began, a number of sheets of paper, the first group numbering nine pages, purporting to be a report of an interview of you by the FBI agents Lish [spelling] L-i-s-h and Barratt [spelling] B-a-r-r-a-t-t, relating to an interview with you on November 24, 1963, running, as I said, for nine pages.
For the purpose of identification, I am marking the first page as follows: "Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5319, Deposition of Ralph Paul," and I am putting my name on the first page, and also writing my initials on the lower right-hand corner of every one of the other pages.
Now, I ask you if you have had an opportunity to read that document, now identified as Exhibit 5319?
Mr. PAUL. What do you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had a chance to read it?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it represent the truth as far as you know?
Mr. PAUL. As far as I know.
Mr. HUBERT. Are there any corrections you want to make or errors you want to correct in it?
Mr. PAUL. Well, you asked me the same thing----
Mr. HUBERT. By referring specifically to Exhibit 5319, you see, is there anything in Exhibit 5319 that is not the truth as far as you know, in this document here?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, that's why I asked you to read it, so you could tell me whether there is anything you want to change in there and you may take your time with it--I don't want to rush you at all.
Mr. PAUL. This page alone, or the whole thing?
Mr. HUBERT. The whole thing.
Mr. PAUL. I don't know what I could change.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you read it?
Mr. PAUL. I think I did--in what respect are you asking me that?
Mr. HUBERT. I just want to know if everything in there is correct, and to give you the opportunity of changing anything in there that is not correct.
Mr. PAUL. Well, I told you the same thing that you asked me--that's all here--I can't change it in any way.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can if it is not the truth, because all we want is the truth.
Mr. PAUL. That's what I told you--the truth.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you willing to state, then, that the facts related, the statements made in the documents, consisting of nine pages which I have now identified as Exhibit 5319, are correct?
Mr. PAUL. As far as I can recall they are correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything to add that document that you think of right now?
Mr. PAUL. As far as I could tell, when they asked me those questions, I told them that was that.
Mr. HUBERT. And this seems to be a true and fair report of the interview with you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you want to delete from that because it is wrong?
Mr. PAUL. How is it wrong?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, if it is not wrong, I would take it you would not want to delete it. That's what I'm trying to do--is to ask you if there is anything in there that's incorrect, because what we are seeking to get is the truth.
Mr. PAUL. You think this is wrong?
Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; I didn't suggest it was wrong. I want to ask you since you have had an opportunity to read it----
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Mr. PAUL. Everything I told them at the time was the right thing--I told them.
Mr. HUBERT. And that seems to be a fair and honest report of the interview you had with them?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, that's all I wanted to know about that.
Now, there is another document which purports to be an interview with you by FBI Agent Clements.
Mr. PAUL. On the telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. On November 28, 1963?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, over the telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. Which I am marking for purposes of identification as follows: "Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5320, Deposition of Ralph Paul," and I am signing my name on that document. That document contains only one page and it refers----
Mr. PAUL. To the stock deal.
Mr. HUBERT. To some stock deal.
Mr. PAUL. Let me see it just a minute.
Mr. HUBERT. This document relates to some conversation with Special Agent Clements, which was had with you, and it is a report of it. Now, will you tell me--I think that that conversation was over the phone?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't believe the document so indicates, but if that is one thing we have learned from this is that that was over the phone--does it fairly state the content of the conversation you had with the agent?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; he asked me what was my interest in the club and I told him I got a certificate of 50 shares, which I received from Jack Ruby because he wanted to protect the money I loaned him, that if anything goes wrong--well, he didn't put it in so many words--he put it in a different---collateral--you know what that means--and he said, "Is that what you mean?" And I said, "I guess that's what it is supposed to be."
I told him that Jack Ruby and Slayton formed the Sovereign Club and it was called the S. and R., Incorporated. I never knew anything about the Sovereign Club, Incorporated, that it was then terminated and became the Carousel Club, which he gave it a name.
Now, I don't know whether the Carousal Club was incorporated, and I said, "I think it is Earl, Ruby's brother, that had the 500 other shares," but I didn't know for sure, that's what I told him. He said he believes Earl, Ruby's brother. I was confused with the question of whether I owned stock or not, which I was. I thought it was merely--he gives me the stock because, like I told you, when he wanted to sell the place he asked me for the stock so he could sell the place.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, at the time you spoke to him, in fact you were confused as to what the situation was?
Mr. PAUL. I sure was.
Mr. HUBERT. What I'm asking you, is--is this a fair statement of what you told him?
Mr. PAUL. I think I gave him a fair statement right up to the minute not that statement--that statement isn't up to the minute, but up to the time.
Mr. HUBERT. But at the time it was accurate?
Mr. PAUL. At the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by any member of the President's Commission before?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Paul, one final thing--we have the two statements that you have given to the FBI, and you have what you have told us tonight--do you think that putting those two things together we have just about all you know about Jack Ruby and about what he had to do with .the slaying of Oswald and so forth?
Mr. PAUL. I don't know nothing about the slaying of Oswald--that's for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but we know all you know about it when we have what you told us tonight and this statement--there's nothing else?
Mr. PAUL. I just told you all I know about Jack Ruby for 15 years.
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Mr. HUBERT. There's nothing we don't know that you know?
Mr. PAUL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement?
Mr. PAUL. If I knew any more I would be willing to tell you, because you didn't pull the words out of my mouth either.
Mr. HUBERT. No; that's correct.
Mr. PAUL. I spoke to you as I knew it.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to add?
Mr. PAUL. No--really, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate your coming in and I am sorry it took so long.
Mr. PAUL. Well, that's perfectly all right.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much for coming in.
Mr. PAUL. All right, thank you.