The testimony of Nancy Mennell Powell was taken at 11 a.m. on July 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself first. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel's staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Now, we routinely try to explain to the witnesses before we get into the testimony what we are here for, and a little about the Commission, so I will say to


you at the outset that the Commission was established as a result of an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. Under those two official acts the Commission has been directed to investigate into the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and then to report back to President Johnson all the facts that we are able to determine.
We have asked you to come here today in particular because you had worked for Jack Ruby for a period of time. Maybe it will give us some insight into what kind of a person he was and his activities. Under the rules and regulations that have been established by the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your testimony. I might tell you that there is a provision in the rules that a witness is entitled to have 3 days' notice in writing before being asked to testify, so I will ask you first of all, have you received a letter from us?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive it?
Mrs. POWELL. Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Last Sunday, so there is no problem on the notice there?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask me?
Mrs. POWELL. No, sir; not really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before I administer the oath to you?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I have been questioned by the FBI three times already.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Only three times?
Mrs. POWELL. That is enough. They were following me around everywhere I went.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if there are any questions that should arise as we proceed with the testimony, you feel free to ask them.
Mrs. POWELL. I will; don't worry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you raise your right hand and let me administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. POWELL. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your full name?
Mrs. POWELL. Nancy Monnell Powell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?
Mrs. POWELL. M-o-n-n-e-l-1 Powell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have a professional or stage name that you use?
Mrs. POWELL. Tammi True.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?
Mrs. POWELL. T-a-m-m-i T-r-u-e [spelling].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, now, Mrs. Powell?
Mrs. POWELL. I live in Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it Miss or Mrs.?
Mrs. POWELL. Mrs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in Fort Worth?
Mrs. POWELL. 1217 Clarence.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you living alone, or with your husband?
Mrs.POWELL. No; I am divorced. My grandmother is living with me, and I have two children living with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mrs. POWELL. June the 9th, 1938.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed presently?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I am.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?
Mrs. POWELL. The Islands Club in Oklahoma City.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the I-s-l-a-n-d-s [spelling]?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed there?
Mrs. POWELL. Since Wednesday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you working before that?
Mrs. POWELL. I wasn't. I have been off for 6 weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about before that?


Mrs. POWELL. I worked in Oklahoma City at the Dugout Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long do you expect to be at the Islands Club?
Mrs. POWELL. I have a 2 weeks contract, with 2 weeks option.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any place where, if we should want to talk to you again, that we could locate you?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, while I am in the city, I am staying at the Rio Motel in Oklahoma City, but this is my permanent address. I own my home there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Fort Worth?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does your grandmother always know where you can be found?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be easiest to contact you through her, or do you have an agent?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I don't have an agent. I use a lot of different agents.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you worked for Jack Ruby; is that right?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start working for him?
Mrs. POWELL. About 2 years ago, or 2 1/2 years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a better estimate of the time? Was it in early 1962, or the summer of 1962, or when?
Mrs. POWELL. Oh gosh, I have to stop and think. Let's see, it was in the fall. I know it was in the fall. I don't remember. I think it was probably in the, well, it might have been early spring. I think it was in March when I went to work there, and I think it was 1962. I can't remember that. I can't remember dates.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for him altogether?
Mrs. POWELL. You mean when I--not counting the times I was gone?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you work for him steadily after you first went to work for him, or were there times when you didn't work for him?
Mrs. POWELL. I worked steady for about 9 months or a year, and then I went out of town for 2 or 3 months, and then I came back and worked, and went out of town, and came back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how did you first go to work for him?
Mrs. POWELL. This friend of mine was working over there, and she told me about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mrs. POWELL. Shari Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you worked as a dancer before?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; but I hadn't been working steady. I had been doing club dates. There is a club in Fort Worth that they have exotics on weekends, and that was all I was doing. I had never worked seven nights a week before, and three shows a night, and she wanted me to go on the road. I am her protege.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is her real name?
Mrs. POWELL. Kay Garcia.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does she live in Dallas or Fort Worth area?
Mrs. POWELL. In Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?
Mrs. POWELL. If you hadn't asked me, I could have told you. I am a blank. I know the address and the number and everything. She lives out off Garland Road someplace.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you were her protege. Are you still her protege? Or was that back a couple of years?
Mrs. POWELL. I am considered a star now, but that was, it might have been 1961 when I went to work for Jack, because I started in--let me go back and think. I got my divorce in 1960 in May, and I think it was in January or February of 1961 that I started dancing. It was about 6 months after I got my divorce that I first started, and I just worked around Fort Worth for about 7 or 8 months. That would make it 1961.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you figuring this as I am going along?
Mrs. POWELL. It is hard to remember, really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You got your divorce----
Mrs. POWELL. In May of 1960.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you didn't start to work as a dancer until about 6 months later; is that right?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes, about 6 months, I believe. I think I started in February. That would be 1961.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You worked around Fort Worth for another 6 or 7 months?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, did you go to work for Jack?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, that still would have made it 1961, perhaps the latter part of 1961?
Mrs. POWELL. No; wait a minute---well, I don't know, seems like I have known him for a hundred years. But what was I telling you--oh, yes; she wanted me to--where was I?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were telling me about Shari Lynn and your friendship with her and you were her protege.
Mrs. POWELL. So, she was working for Jack. She has been in business a long time, and she asked him to put me to work, so I could get some experience, 7 nights a week, and I did, and I stayed there. She only wanted me to work there 2 or 3 weeks or something, and I stayed there forever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you work continuously for Jack before you stopped working for awhile?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. I really don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, from?
Mrs. POWELL. It was a long time. It was, you know, close to a year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you work?
Mrs. POWELL. I think I went there in March of whatever year it was, and I didn't go on the road until the next summer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A year and a half then, almost?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; because it was in the summer---two summers ago. Not last summer, but the summer before last. I went to Houston, for, I don't know, a few weeks or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And came back? Would that have been 1962?
Mrs. POWELL. October.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have started working for him in about 1961?
Mrs. POWELL. I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you on the road in the summer of 1962?
Mrs. POWELL. Let's see, I worked down there, I think, 3 weeks in Houston, and then I came back, but I didn't go back to work out there immediately. I was off for awhile. I didn't work any place for awhile and then I went back, but don't ask me when, because I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you did go back, which would have been, I presume in the fall of 1962, even later, maybe the winter of 1962?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I was there New Year's Eve, I know, of that year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you went back to work for Jack, and then how long did you work for him after that?
Mrs. POWELL. I worked for him until last summer. I got mad at him again and went to Oklahoma City. No; I went to Tulsa, Okla., and worked 7 weeks, and then came back. I don't think I went back with him then. No; I came back a week or two, and then I went back up to Oklahoma City, and I stayed 6 weeks last summer. Then I went to Kansas City for 2 weeks last summer also, and then I came back. August, I was up here. I was up in Oklahoma and it was awfully hot up there. And when I came back from Oklahoma City, after August, I went back to work for him. Are we up to this year yet?
Mr. GRIFFIN. We ought to be up to the fall of 1963. Let me answer this telephone. Let me interrupt you here and ask you, is there a difference between an exotic dancer and a striptease dancer?
Mrs. POWELL. Now, you have goofed me up. The difference between them is, an exotic is like a belly dancer, comes out on stage with veils and panels and things, like the dancer of the seven veils. And a stripper comes out fully clothed and takes if off. But an exotic doesn't take anything off. It is like, I don't know, Egyptian or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of dancing do you do, striptease or exotic?


Mrs. POWELL. A lot of girls would prefer to be exotic, but as far as I am concerned, it is a dirty old stripper. I have a friend that is a comedian that wants to team me with him, and I think I will.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think before we digress here, Mrs. Powell, we were trying to figure out when it was that you started to work for Jack Ruby again just before he shot Oswald?
Mrs. POWELL. Let's see----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated something about being in Kansas City?
Mrs. POWELL. I get confused on these things, because when you just skip around, you don't--let's see, did we establish I was working for him in January of----
Mr. GRIFFIN. New Year's Eve of 1963 you said you were working for him
Mrs. POWELL. I lived over here for a while in the same apartment building he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you live on Ewing Street?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 223 South Ewing Street?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn't move there until about the first of the year?
Mrs. POWELL. We moved in at the same time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living with him?
Mrs. POWELL. No. I wasn't living with him, the ugly thing. I had an apartment. I presume you have seen his apartment and everything and know about it. My apartment was right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Across the hall?
Mrs. POWELL. Actually, I was away down here in the corner, and you had to walk around this corner, and my apartment was right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living there alone, or with somebody else?
Mrs. POWELL. I lived there part-time alone, and this other girl that danced here was my roommate for awhile when she was in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mrs. POWELL. Raven.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you live there before you went to Oklahoma City, or after you went to Oklahoma City?
Mrs. POWELL. That was the last time that I quit, was while I was living there, and I have forgotten when it was. Now, in January I lived there. I moved in about the same time he did, because the apartment was a brand new building, and I was living down on Ewing, but further down, and there were a bunch of people living there that were kind of loud and it wasn't a very good environment, and Jack didn't think I should live there, and they were always fighting and calling the police, and he looked at this apartment, and he was going to move in. He was real enthused about them, they were so great, and he got me to go down there and look at them, and I got an apartment there, because I don't like to stay by myself. I am real scary. I always think somebody is to follow me home and do something to me, and I wanted to live in the same building as Jack so if I had any trouble, I would get him to help me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go back to last summer. Were you working for Jack last summer?
Mrs. POWELL. Last summer; no. Last summer I was up in Oklahoma City so, that means I came back and went to work for him, right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You moved into that apartment sometime the early part of 1963, and then when you went to Oklahoma City, did you move out of the apartment?
Mrs. POWELL. You see, I quit the last time. It was while I was living in the apartment building. That is when I quit, and I didn't come back. No, I came back one more time. and I left just 2 days before this happened, from the Carousel, then I was gone, and I came back after.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you quit Jack on November 20, that is 2 days before the President was shot----


Mrs. POWELL. That was the last time I quit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time, were you living at South Ewing?
Mrs. POWELL. No. I quit before then. I was living on South Ewing, and there was a girl working up there that is married then to the emcee, and they were always, that doesn't work out in show business too well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston?
Mrs. POWELL. And his wife, Shari.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she working there as a stripper at Jack's place?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. There is always a lot of confusion when they were around. They were kind of tough. Really, they are. They think they are great stars, and they cause trouble for other people, and I don't need it, because I can work, and I didn't feel like I could take it. But anyway, we had some trouble, and I quit. This must have been in March, because I remember the weather wasn't bad. It was still cool, but it was like the summer, sun was shining. It was March or April. Let me think, March or April. Must have been March or April, I guess. I don't really know. I can't remember. But anyway, I quit, and I told him I would never work up there again as long as they were there. And I worked some place else. I guess I went to Tulsa. I guess that is where I went. I worked some place. I came back. It was in December, the month of December I worked in Oklahoma City for 4 weeks of this past year, and I came home for Christmas. And he called me. He has a partner, wanted his partner to ask me to come back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ralph Paul.
Mrs. POWELL Yes. But Jack didn't want to. Jack and I really had it all the time. I don't know, either Ralph asked me or he did, but anyway, I went back. I told him I wouldn't work with them, so he fired this Shari so I would come back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you came back?
Mrs. POWELL. Wait a minute. I was up there in December, and New Year's Eve I worked in Fort Worth for the Skyliner.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which year, New Year's Eve?
Mrs. POWELL. This past New Year's, this year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 1964. You are on beyond the assassination at this point?
Mrs. POWELL. Am I really? I----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; you are.
Mrs. POWELL. Oh, yes, yes; I am. Yes; I am way beyond. Sure that had already happened when I was in Oklahoma.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You left Jack around March of 1963?
Mrs. POWELL. Wait a minute. I know I went to Tulsa, and I worked the last 2 weeks in March. I stayed in Tulsa in March, and I worked 2 weeks in Kansas City, and came back, and stayed in Tulsa, until June 2, and I came home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then did you come back and work for Jack?
Mrs. POWELL. Wait, don't rush me. That was last summer. How did I get up way past the assassination? It was last summer. Well, I worked for Jack up until 2 days before the President was assassinated. I closed on Tuesday. It happened on Thursday, didn't it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Friday.
Mrs. POWELL. Then I closed on Wednesday, because it was just 2 days before the President was assassinated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to quit?
Mrs. POWELL. I got mad at him. Let me see if I can remember what it was about now. I don't even remember--something. He always had something going, you know; but I got mad and quit for some reason.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give him any advance notice?
Mrs. POWELL. Oh, yes; I gave him notice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much notice?
Mrs. POWELL. A week's notice. Under union contract rules, you have to give the employer a week's notice, and he has to give you 2 weeks, if you are booked indefinitely like I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these the AGVA rules?


Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at that time?
Mrs. POWELL. I was living in Fort Worth then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack pay while you worked for him? What was your salary?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, it was $110 a week, I think, or $115 he paid me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack meeting the union scale?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. See, in classified clubs like A, B, and C clubs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack's classification?
Mrs. POWELL. I think it was classified as a C club, because he had connections. The C clubs don't have to pay as much as the class B, or A club would have to pay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about Jack's reaction to your having quit him?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, he always acted like he didn't care, like he was glad to get rid of me, and then he called me to come back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there when Jack turned out the lights on Jada?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually witness that episode?
Mrs. POWELL. The whole thing. As a matter of fact, I thought he was going to turn and jump on me about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what happened?
Mrs. POWELL. Let's see, she was pulling her pants down, and that is against the law. She could close him up. And he got real excited. He was real excitable and he was running back and forth, and he didn't know what to do, so he just turned the lights out on her, and she just kept on dancing. Then she came off stage, and he got this idea in his mind, that she was--she had been doing this ever since she had been there, and all of a sudden he just noticed it. He had this idea in his mind that she was going to try to get his club closed down, and she was doing it to close the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he get that idea?
Mrs. POWELL. How did he get any of his ideas. He just got weird ideas about them. Like me, for instance, ever since the day I went to work for him, he never trusted me. He liked me and he had a lot of respect for me, but he said I was a conniver and I was a sharpie, and he said I was always thinking, trying to figure out a way to rook somebody out of something. I don't know where he got that impression, because I am not like that at all. I would walk up to him in the evening and say, "Helloooo Jack," on purpose, because he had this weird reaction, and he would look at me and say, "What do you want?" Because he thought I wanted something. And one day I said, "What have you got that I would be trying to beat you out of?" He couldn't think of anything, but it didn't change his mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you sort of teased him a bit?
Mrs. POWELL. I understood Jack and we got along great. We had fights and I would cuss him and he would cuss me, but he liked me for that. He never liked girls he could push around. He would much rather holler at them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Jada was in cahoots with your competitors in any way?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I think he was getting ready to let her go anyway, because she had been there quite awhile.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think that?
Mrs. POWELL. Because she had been there quite awhile and wasn't drawing much business. At first she drew a lot of business, but she was there for a long time and weren't doing much business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think that is the reason that she took this extra license in the middle of her act, because she hadn't been drawing much business?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. She really had been doing it--she came from New Orleans, and the first night she did her act, she was awful.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she do?
Mrs. POWELL. She was pulling up her strings, and they did things like that in New Orleans, and the girls don't work like that, so Jack had her to clean her act up about three times so he wouldn't get in any trouble. But she loved publicity and would love to have been taken to jail for it.


Believe me, I love and adore her. I think she has everything on the ball. She is flashy and she is what a stripper should be if they are going to be one, but she would do anything, just anything, and she went out with every reporter in town to get her name in the paper, from sports writers on up. And Jack got the word, or somebody that she was going to get arrested, because when she gets in town, she wants everybody to know she is in town, and if she has to go to jail to do it. She is smart, because she is clever. Because people come to see her for curiosity. I don't think that was it. He just happened to notice her doing it, and I don't really know. I think they had a little trouble or something, and an argument. They argued a lot too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said that she was pulling her pants down?
Mrs. POWELL. She wasn't pulling them down. She wore these very brief flesh-colored things underneath the G-string. She took the G-string and was pulling this front out from her body.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She would take off the G-string and have the flesh-colored pants on?
Mrs. POWELL. She had her hands like this and was pulling them out or pulling them up, and he saw her, and he just turned the lights out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But this is something you had seen her do previously?
Mrs. POWELL. Oh I had seen her, sure; but he has a way of not seeing everything. He is always so busy. I remember one night on the stage I went out and I was very mad, and I stomped around and acted real silly like I had never been on the stage before, for his benefit, and I do 15 minutes, and I was waiting for him to come back and jump on me, and he didn't even see it, and he was right there in the club. He doesn't observe everything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened after he turned the lights out on Jada?
Mrs. POWELL. She went on and kept dancing in the dark. And she came off and was hollering and screaming, and he went back immediately and jumped on her and said she was trying to get the club closed. And they had a big row and he fired her. He told her she couldn't work the rest of the night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he threaten or strike her in any way?
Mrs. POWELL. No; he didn't hit her. I wouldn't doubt that he might have. I wouldn't put it past him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen him hit any of the employees?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had any of the employees tell you that he hit them?
Mrs. POWELL No; I guess I call him everything in the book, and he never made an attempt to hit me. I argued with him more than anybody up there, and he never made an attempt to hit me. He never even threatened me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you had a little protection. You were friendly with his backer?
Mrs. POWELL. That wouldn't stop Jack. He doesn't care. I mean, if he felt like doing it, he would do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him hit any customers?
Mrs. POWELL. Once I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe that episode?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; Ralph was up there, and Ralph and I were sitting by the door, and this guy came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about Ralph Paul?
Mrs. POWELL Yes; and this guy came in and he sat down in a chair behind me, and he was rubbing my back, and I told him to take his hands off of me, and so he wouldn't stop, and Ralph, you know Ralph--my hero--he told him "OK, that is enough. Get out of here." And he was pushing him out, and Jack was in the club and saw him, and he came running over and grabbed the guy and was pushing him out, and he got very upset because he thought quite a bit of Ralph, and the guy took a swing at Ralph. When he did, Jack just hit him. He hit him and pushed him out and closed the door where he couldn't come back in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack a pretty strong fellow?
Mrs. POWELL. From what I understand, he is pretty rough. I have never actually seen him fight or anything. He is actually pretty good natured, really.


I have seen him argue with his best friends and tell them to get out of the club and don't ever come back. He and Earl Norman got into a fight one night up there too. And he and Earl were good friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a fight or an argument?
Mrs. POWELL. He hit him, but it was Earl's fault.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened there?
Mrs. POWELL. Earl came in the club, and he drinks quite a bit, and he used to work up there as an emcee, but he drinks a lot, and when he gets drunk--well, we better go back to Jada, because this happened over that deal. On that night, Jack told Jada she couldn't finish out the night. She was going to do it anyway, and she called the union man so she could finish doing her last two shows. And the union man came up there and he talked to them, and he told Jack to let her go ahead and finish. So, they got together and decided to let her finish the week before she left. Then they got into it again over something, I don't know, and she says that he threatened to hit her and all this, so the next night she is on stage working and the police came up there, and she had got a warrant for his arrest for threatening her or something, I don't know, filed charges against him, and they come up and took Jack and Jada before the night judge, got him out of bed or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there and did you actually see the police come up and get Jack?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; they took Jada with them. In the meantime, she had put all her stuff and packed it away in trunks and bought this paraffin that you seal things with and seal all her things up so if Jada missed anything--she said he threatened to burn her wardrobe also. And he went down to the police station and went before the judge, and they were gone about 2 hours, and he came back. The reason they went is because Jack didn't want to pay her for the week. He wanted her to leave, and she got her money, $250. The judge gave it to her. And he came back and was furious, and he said she went down and told the judge all kinds of bad things about all of us, and he got the other girls worked up, and they were going to go to the motel where she was staying and do all kinds of things. And I am sitting there. I am pretty levelheaded, and I like Jack, but he likes to fabricate, and I couldn't believe that she said all the things he said she did. Anyway, if she did, she was telling the truth. She said, "I told the judge I pulled my pants down too, so I did."
I took up for her. I said, "Now, when you are calling her all these things, you go out and jump on her, and that is not going to make you any better than she is." He got mad at me because I didn't want to go out and jump on her. He felt like I was against him, so he was hollering at me and said, "I used to have respect, but I lost all respect. He thought I was stuff and tough." And I don't know, so I just left the club. I said, "I don't even want to talk to you."I went inside and I went back in and Earl Norman came over, because he is on the board of directors. The union man couldn't come over, and he sent Earl over there to stay there until Jada got her things and got out, so there would be a representative there in case anything happened. And she filed a claim. Jack thought Earl was against him also because he came over there.
So, he was in the club, and Jack started hollering at him and told him--first of all, it started out as a nice conversation, and Earl is great about quoting you new rules. He knows all of them, and he goes by the book, and especially when he is drinking. That is all he can talk about is union rules. He drives you crazy sometimes. And he was explaining to Jack, Jack said, "You are against me. You are against me." And he said, "No; I am not. I had to come over, Tom Palmer told me to, and it is my job as a member of the board." And Jack told him to get out. He said, "I want you to leave. If you don't, I am going to punch you in the mouth, so you get out now." And he was walking the floor. He was really, very, very angry. So Earl tells him, "You better not ever hit me, or I will get a gun and come back and shoot you." He shouldn't have said that. Jack went to pieces and he smashed him in the mouth, but Earl wasn't going to give up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Earl leave at that point?
Mrs. POWELL. No; he kept explaining and mouthing off, but Jack didn't hit


him any more. The band was there and I was there. We had closed up already.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack send anybody out to get a gun?
Mrs. POWELL. No. It wasn't Jack that made that statement. It was Earl Norman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was Earl Norman who said he was going to get a gun and shoot?
Mrs. POWELL. Earl said if he ever hit him, he would go home and get a gun, and Jack hit him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack did hit him?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I don't blame him much. He provoked him, really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Earl do? Did he leave?
Mrs. POWELL. No; he kept on, and they got Jack calmed down, and Earl kept on, because when he drinks, he doesn't have good sense, Earl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when Earl Norman came back to the club about a week before President Kennedy was shot and Jack wouldn't let him in? Do you remember that incident?
Mrs. POWELL Oh, well, he had come up a lot of times and Jack wouldn't let him in. He has been barred from there a hundred times. He would have an argument, and Jack would bar him. One time they ran him off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to follow it from the time of this episode with Jada.
Mrs. POWELL. He came back after that. Jack never stayed mad at anyone for a long length of time. He would throw him out and tell him, "Don't come back," but Earl would call, "Is it OK if I come up," or he would come to the door and ask if it is all right, and I don't remember Jack not letting him in. But a lot of times it was depending on how drunk he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe any kindnesses or anything that Jack showed?
Mrs. POWELL. He was very kind to a lot of people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any specific instances of kind acts?
Mrs. POWELL. He was always picking people up off the street or something, that didn't have a place to stay or any money or a job or anything. He just had all kinds. Well, he had this one guy who used to sleep in the club. We had three or four guys sleeping in the club every night because they didn't have a place to stay. And he would give him $2 or $3 a day, and they were sort of flunkies.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the last fellow, Larry Crafard?
Mrs. POWELL. Isn't he kind of a carnival guy?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the fellow.
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I remember him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about Jack's twistboard?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. I demonstrated his twistboard here in the building with the exhibits.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Texas Product Show?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you go out to demonstrate?
Mrs. POWELL. Just once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you there?
Mrs. POWELL. Oh, about 30 minutes to an hour. Jack called me, and I went there before work one night, and then I went home with him and he cooked lamb chops.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do, get up on the board?
Mrs. POWELL. There was another boy, he had picked up by the name of Tommy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He had another fellow?
Mrs. POWELL. At this time that I was demonstrating the twistboard, there was this boy living with him. His name was Tommy something, and he was staying with him the last time I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Living in Jack's apartment?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. Because they came out there, and we went to the apartment, and Jack cooked dinner for us all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a fellow was Tommy?
Mrs. POWELL. About 25, I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he look like?


Mrs. POWELL. Well, I think he played--he told me he had played baseball. He looked like a baseball player. Baseball players all look alike, sort of athletic type, but not musclebound.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how tall?
Mrs. POWELL. About 5' 11", had brown hair, and I think he was from Iowa or someplace like that, a really nice kid. And he had a job; he was working though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he working?
Mrs. POWELL. Gee, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had Tommy been living with Jack?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. He was living with him when I came back for work the last time, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he move out?
Mrs. POWELL. You got me, I don't know. I mean, I didn't keep up with all of these guys. He just picked guys up.
One night he had this boy up there, and he said, "You are going to Fort Worth. I want you to give this friend of mine a ride."
And I said, "OK." He says, "He goes to college at TCU, and you can drop him off."
And I said, "OK."
And the kid is working around there, and when I get ready to leave and I get him in the car and we pile his books in at the bus station, and I start on the turnpike, and I said, "How long have you known Jack?"
And he said, "I don't know him. I didn't have enough money to get to Fort Worth, and I started talking to him on the street, and he told me to come up to the club and he would give me a couple of dollars to work, and then he got me a ride."
And Jack doesn't know him, and here I am on a dark turnpike with this guy. But that is the way he does things.
There was a guy standing down one night in front of the place looking at pictures out in front, and Jack was down there, and he started talking to him, and that guy stayed around for a long time, and he got to be, well, he knew a lot of people here, and he was a pretty nice guy.
And Jack had him tell everybody that he was a friend of his from Chicago, because he knew that people, we were always teasing him about picking people up and helping them out, so he got to where he would say they were old friends from Chicago or someplace.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were demonstrating the twistboard, did you sell any of them?
Mrs. POWELL. We sold one to the guy that is the head of--what is the biggest extract company that makes food extract?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Hunt Foods? H. L. Hunt?.
Mrs. POWELL. No. What is it? They distribute it here. It is a big extract company. They make vanilla and almond and all this.
The man's name that we sold it to was the man who owned the company, and he gave Jack, supposed to give Jack a case of rum extract or something.
Jack was trying to figure out a way to serve drinks after hours, and there is no way you can but this way you can serve rum and coke, and you can put rum straight in coke and sell it, and there is not enough alcohol in it that the law could do anything about it, and you can sell it for 60 cents. That was my idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested that you sell it for 60 cents and mix the rum extract?
Mrs. POWELL. The whole thing, so he was tickled to death this guy was going to give him a whole case of rum extract.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever try that?
Mrs. POWELL. No, he never did do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were out at the Texas Product Show, did Jack ever pick up any literature from H. L. Hunt?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any radio scripts from Life Line?


Mrs. POWELL. No. What is Life Line?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack have any political discussions with anybody?
Mrs. POWELL. No; never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember about this fellow Larry, the carnival kid?
Mrs. POWELL. I remember I didn't like him too much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why not?
Mrs. POWELL Well, because I thought he was kind of a bum, and I don't like bums. He is kind of a--like kind of gave me the creeps or something, like some guy. I think he looked at you kind of funny. I don't know, I didn't like him, and he got pretty bossy.
Jack let him sleep up in the place there, and he decided he was big cheese, and he came back there one night telling me something that I should do, and I really jumped on him and told him, "All you are is a flunky and you are just up here to sweep floors." So, I don't think he liked me too well after that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever give you any of the reducing pills he was taking?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give any to the other girls?
Mrs. POWELL No. I didn't know he was taking reducing pills. He had some kind of powder junk and you are supposed to put it in your coffee and it will hold your appetite down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Diet pills is what I meant when I said reducing pills.
Mrs. POWELL. But I just saw this powder and he had that sitting on the table by the coffee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any transactions he did under the name of Banker Drugs?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever heard that? Banker Drugs?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a number of the girls that swore out affidavits against Jack for AGVA, and they said in their affidavits that Jack wanted them to mingle with the customers contrary to the AGVA rules and so forth? What do you know about that?
Mrs. POWELL. That is not true. That is absolutely untrue, absolutely.
Jack had a hard time in that club because the other clubs were in competition with him, and they have been here 20 years. Not near as bad as Jack imagined.
He had this big thing built up in his mind that they were trying to put him out of business, but really they weren't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't think they were. Why should they care. They have been in business 20 years, and still doing the same things. Other clubs help you. It is competition, and people like that, and people like to go to other clubs in different districts.
Jack was upset about the amateur nights and I can see why, because the amateurs were all working and they got $10 a night doing a show.
They had four clubs in Dallas they could work, and that was $40 a week, plus all the daytime jobs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the four clubs? I know of the Carousel, the Theatre Lounge, and the Colony Club. What was the fourth?
Mrs. POWELL. Vegas. He let the girls work at the Vegas to help them out to get another $10. He didn't need it at the Vegas. The place was packed all the time.
They passed this rule that you couldn't have amateur exotics any more because it was knocking some legitimate acts out of business, so Jack immediately--they sent wires to all the club owners, and Jack immediately stopped.
But the other two clubs continued to have their amateur exotics. But they said the girls had to join the union. You had to pay them $35 a night. That is union scale for a night.
But they weren't paying them that. They were paying them $10 or $15 just per usual.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?


Mrs. POWELL. Well, I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any of the girls tell you?
Mrs. POWELL. I got a direct line.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the girls tell you how much they were getting paid?
Mr.s, POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody in one of the clubs tell you?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mrs. POWELL. I really don't remember. I really don't remember, but that is what I heard, and I just know. Listen, I know these club owners. They are not going to give their girls $35. They are not, because I know them. They kept having their shows over there.
And I was in the office when Jack called the head man, I think, in New York or Chicago. He went up, as a matter of fact, to New York and paid a visit to him.
Then when I went to New York last year, he wanted me to go over and talk to him. And one night in his office, I was in there when he made a call. He was very upset about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us from your knowledge of Jack that in the couple of weeks or months before President Kennedy was shot, Jack was more excited and worried and concerned about his club and his competitors than he had been at other times?
Mrs. POWELL No. Maybe he was. He got to where he hadn't been coming in so much, being so worried about it.
He became more relaxed about the club. At first, he would never leave the club. He was there all the time, but he got to where he would go out and come in later like at 10 o'clock or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the feeling that in fact in the month or so before the President was shot, Jack felt confident enough about his club so he was out doing other things?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, not that he was out doing other things. Just that he wasn't coming in until 10. I think he had someone working up there at that time that was running it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. I think there was someone up there that was kind of looking after the place, but he had the club pretty well going smooth enough to where he could do that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Andy Armstrong pretty able to run the club for him?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. We had all been there so long and we knew what to do and when to do it and how to do it.
Really, Jack didn't have much of a problem, because the kids had been with him for a long time, most of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you described the episode with Jada and as a result of it you mentioned that he felt people were against him, and you sided with his competitors, and he was mad at Earl Norman and felt Earl Norman was on the other side, and so forth.
Had there been other occasions when Jack had said the same thing, or was this a new concern on his part that everybody was turning against him?
Mrs. POWELL. No. Ever since I have known him, he had been that way. He is the type of person that he gets an idea about something and I don't care what it is, if that is the way he feels about it, you can't shake his mind, and it doesn't do any good to argue, because that is the way he is.
And he never thinks before he does anything, never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How common was it for him to feel that people were against him?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, it is very common, because I think---I don't know, because I wasn't there, but from being around him and from knowing Ralph as well as I do and other people that know Jack, I understand that he had a pretty hard time getting up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From your own experience, I am asking you?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, it was very common, but you know, like all of his life, he has had to fight for things, and he feels that in order to get some place, he's got


to do everything, he is going to do it before somebody else does it to stop him
He has always had this in his mind that somebody was going to do something to him, and he was going to beat them to the punch.
Does that make sense to you? Do you understand what I am saying?
Mr. GRIFFIN. He wanted to get in there first?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't care how much money Jack had. If he had been a millionaire, he wouldn't have been one bit different. He didn't have any class, and he really wanted to. And no tact.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What had he ever said to you about his desire for class?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, now, you could tell the way he acted, and if you were around him a great deal. Jack really wanted to be somebody, and have class. He used the word class quite often, so I know it was an important thing with him. This girl that worked up there, he said, "She's got class," and he would go on about class. Everything had to have class. And I think that is what he wanted, but he could never have it, because Jack was just Jack. He has no tact. I mean the club could be packed, and if he is standing over on this side and there is something doing, he would holler, "Hey, you hit the door." He is just weird.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe we will get back to this in a little bit. I want to ask you some questions about your own activities on November 22 and from then on, and we will maybe work back into this again.
Mrs. POWELL. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you first learned that President Kennedy had been shot?
Mrs. POWELL. I was at this guy's house over here in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. You probably got his name down. I don't know which name you got.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know whether I do. Mike Ryan? Mickey Ryan?
Mrs. POWELL. That is the one, the guy that Jack picked up, the one I was telling you about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go over to his house?
Mrs. POWELL. I had some friends come in from Old Mexico that morning. There were five of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were they?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I didn't know all of them. There was this one guy I knew was a bartender in Tulsa, and when I worked in Oklahoma I--the last time, he rode this far with me. He had a friend in Old Mexico, and he was going to go over there for about a month or so. And I brought him over to the apartment. As a matter of fact, he went down there, and he had been gone about 2 or 3 months, and that morning someone knocked on the back door, and this was him, and he had these other people with him that I didn't know. Like I say, my grandmother lives with me. And he said, "I have some friends in the car and we have driven 1,500 miles and haven't eaten and didn't have any money. They had been down bumming around and could they come in?" And I said, "Sure." And he gets out and brings in a girl, a beatnik, which doesn't bother me. My grandmother is 76, and she is a beatnik.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Not your grandmother?
Mrs. POWELL No; the girl is a beatnik type. She is from England or something like that, I think. And his other boy comes in from New York and all three people are from New York, and he brings this colored guy. And like I live in the South, but I just figured that this is my property. He was a very nice guy. He was studying to be a doctor, and they had gone there for the summer. They came and I fixed breakfast and coffee. And this friend of mine from Tulsa has a friend over here and he wanted me to bring him over to see if he could borrow some money, because he was going to ride as far as Tulsa, and give them some money to get to New York. So, I brought him over here and went out to his friend's house and his friend wasn't at home. His friend's house is very close to the apartment that Mickey was living in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he living at that time?


Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. It is where Gaston Avenue are you familiar with the city?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I know the street.
Mrs. POWELL. It is where Gaston comes into, you know, you go out Gaston--have you gone out Gaston? If you haven't, I am not going to go through this. It is where Gaston and Grand Avenue come together. He lived on Gaston, but just off of Grand Avenue. It is a real pretty apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was it when you got over there?
Mrs. POWELL I don't know. What time was the President assassinated? That is what time it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About 12:30?
Mrs. POWELL. That is what time it was, because when we went in, the television was on, and when we went in, Mickey turned the TV off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take your friends with you?
Mrs. POWELL. No; just Pete and I. His friends stayed over in my house and we came over here alone. When we went in, TV was on, and Mike turned it off, and we were sitting there talking, and Pete was looking for a job or something, so he said, "I have this friend that Mike had just gone to work in a bar out here at the Marriott or some place, and he said he had this friend that might be able to help Pete find a job. And he went to the phone and called him, and we were sitting in the living room, and he asked this guy, and the secretary said that he was outside. Anyway, I don't know about that conversation, but all of a sudden he said, "Oh, no." He was going on something terrible, and I thought what happened to his friend. So I said, "What happened to your friend?" And he didn't answer. Then he came out of the bedroom and he said, the President has just been shot, he walked right to the TV and turned it on, and we thought it was a joke, that nothing like that could happen, it just couldn't. And we were laughing and everything, and he turned it on, and they had the TV cameras out where he was supposed to make his speech. They announced it, and it was unbelievable.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?
Mrs. POWELL. We didn't remain very long. We just stopped by there for a minute, and we left there and came downtown. No; we went to Parkland Hospital. We were there long enough, because we found he was in Parkland Hospital. And Pete and I went over to Parkland Hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you arrive at Parkland Hospital before it was known that the President was dead?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; go ahead.
Mrs. POWELL. So, we went out there to the hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you, because I thought of another question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the driving conditions going out there to Parkland?
Mrs. POWELL. Very bad. Well, they weren't so bad. I came through town to start with. We started down to get an extra, because we knew they would have extras, and I wanted to get one to save for my kiddos.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did stop downtown?
Mrs. POWELL. Over here some place at one of the newspapers. We stopped for just a second and ran into see if they had the extras out yet. No; maybe we didn't. I think we went directly to the hospital, because it had just happened. Anyway, we went to the hospital, and it wasn't too bad going out, but around the hospital it was just terrible. But we parked and we walked up and stood there, and the TV cameras were there already. And I guess we had been there about--on the way out there, they announced over the radio that the President was dead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you drove out, did you go out the expressway? That is Stemmons Expressway?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive out the Stemmons Expressway?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How was the traffic on Stemmons Expressway?
Mrs. POWELL. It didn't seem to be too bad on the expressway.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make normal time?
Mrs. POWELL I drove very fast.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did it take you? Where did you get on the Stemmons Expressway?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I came through town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get on there the same way the President had gone?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I sure did, because Pete had never been here before. It was his first time. Just when he got the plane to go to Mexico. And I was showing him. We drove by the Depository down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long would it have taken you to drive out there?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I don't recall that it took any longer than it normally would to drive out there. Of course, I slowed down through town. We came down and I slowed down and we looked up at the window. Of course, there was a lot of people, but they were keeping traffic moving, and we went exactly the same route, because I pointed out the building where he was supposed to make his speech. Then I got off, and I wasn't too sure where the hospital was, to tell the truth. I got off and I found it all right, and there was just a lot of traffic around there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any trouble parking when you got to the hospital?
Mrs. POWELL. Sure. People were parking everywhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you got out there after you learned the President was dead?
Mrs. POWELL. They hadn't announced it to the people there, I don't think. I know that I knew that the President was dead. The people standing around the hospital did not know it as of yet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you standing around the main entrance or the emergency entrance?
Mrs. POWELL. I was around at the main entrance, I guess. The main entrance faces this way? Like this is the hospital, and this is Harry Hines, and this is the main entrance?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to draw a diagram. Put Harry Hines Boulevard and the Parkland Hospital, and then draw it in such a way that we can tell.
Mrs. POWELL. I will make the hospital here, and this is Harry Hines here. I parked down here somewhere, and all the TV cameras--there was a big truck, was like here with the cameras, and I stood just right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a "P" where you were.
Mrs. POWELL. I stood right here, and there was an entranceway here, and, of course, there was a curb right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see President Johnson come out of the hospital?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I didn't. I don't think he was seen, was he? Did they put him in a car with the curtains drawn? I know they kind of worried about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the entrance that you were standing by, the entrance that President Kennedy's body was taken into?
Mrs. POWELL. No. See, I wasn't there when they took him in or anything, but I was standing here on this side. Now, this would be Harry Hines running north and south; right?
Mrs. POWELL. I was standing on the south side of the building, and I think the emergency is around here. There wasn't any way I could get close to the emergency, because it was just full of cars and people, so I came down here to Hines and pulled up over a curb and got upon the grass and parked down here. They brought the President from somewhere around here, because this is a curb and a street all through here like the front of this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to have to stop you a minute, Nancy, because I want to make what you have been saying clear to the people that read the record.
Mrs. POWELL. Okay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you at this point where you think the entrance was that you were looking at, the entrance that you were near?
Mrs. POWELL. Right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the south side of the building?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes, it is on the south side.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, you have drawn a line of some sort out of the north side of the building?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, you told me to show you where I thought they brought him out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. Now, would you make an arrow on that and then along the arrow that you have drawn, indicate the place from which you think President Kennedy's body was taken? Would you write something to the effect, "Place from which President Kennedy's body was taken"?
Mrs. POWELL. But I didn't see it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have some idea. I am trying to get some idea in case you are not clear really on what entrance this is.
Mrs. POWELL. I am clear on the entrance. I know it is the entrance on the south side, and I know that is where a lot of reporters and people were going in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. While you were standing there, at any time did you see Jack Ruby around?
Mrs. POWELL. No. Do you want me to do this now? This is a curb.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I think it is good enough to leave it the way it is, and I won't ask you to mark President Kennedy's route.
Mrs. POWELL. I know where he came from, and it apparently must have been from here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The north side is what you are pointing to?
Mrs. POWELL. I was standing here, and when they came out, they had him in a hearse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw the hearse come by?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. It came from around the end of the building like this, and they came down this way through here and down Harry Hines.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mark some arrows on that line so that we know it is the route of the President.
Mrs. POWELL. This is Harry Hines, and they went down this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me mark it for you so I will show you what I want. I am putting arrows along the route to indicate where it was, and I am going to mark this, "Route of President Kennedy's hearse."
I am going to mark this piece of paper that we have been working with here as "Nancy Powell Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 1."
How long did you remain out at Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. POWELL. Till they brought his body by.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mrs. POWELL. What I thought was his body. I mean, I didn't see in there, but I know it was a black hearse and the curtains were drawn, and they had a motorcade, so I know it must have been him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mrs. POWELL Then I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go?
Mrs. POWELL. I went back to Fort Worth, because my grandmother was very, very fond of the President, and she was pretty old, and I knew she would be very upset.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take your friend back with you?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name?
Mrs. POWELL. Pete.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his last name?
Mrs. POWELL. If you hadn't asked me, I could have of told you. Devoire, D-e-v-o-i-r-e [spelling].
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said he was from Tulsa?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does he do for a living?
Mrs. POWELL. He is a bartender.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What club was he working in?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, he was working in Enid whenever he went to Mexico, and I don't know the name of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are working up in Oklahoma?


Mrs. POWELL. In Oklahoma City.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your friends back at your grandmother's house when you got back there?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got back to your grandmother's house?
Mrs. POWELL. My grandmother was cooking dinner, and she was really very shaken up about it. She was in tears practically, so I went in and we sat down and we ate.
We got up, and this girl did the dishes, and, of course, we discussed it at great length, and we all watched TV, I would say, until we got sick, just listening to it any more. I thought I was going crazy, but we sat up and watched TV until late that night. Then we went to bed, and the next day we watched TV again. They left the next day in the afternoon. They went on. But they stayed overnight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after they left?
Mrs. POWELL. I didn't do anything. Then I just did normal things that I do when I am at home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn't you go into Dallas Saturday night?
Mrs. POWELL. Oh, yes, I did. Why did I come over here that night? I had some reason for coming over, and I don't know what it was. I forget what it was now.
I had to see Pappy, this agent here, I was going out of town. I know what it was, I was leaving on Monday to go to Oklahoma City to work, and I needed some money to go up there on, so I had to come over and got money from Pappy to go, and I called Little Lynn.
She used to ride with me until I quit, and I called her and told her that I was coming over here, and if she wanted to ride, she could, because she had to ride the bus. And she said she would like to ride, so I went by and picked her up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you pick up her husband also?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you pick her up?
Mrs. POWELL. She was supposed to be at work at 9 I think, so I must have picked her up around 8, between 8:10 or 8:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mrs. POWELL. We came over and went to the Colony Club, and Pappy wasn't there, so I went over to the no, first of all, we went to the Carousel. When we got there, it was closed, and the other clubs were open.
This is unusual, because Jack didn't believe in closing. So, then we went over to the Colony Club, and Pappy wasn't there, so Lynn said she was going to call Jack. She needed some money, and he didn't tell her that he was going to be closed.
But he said that he told Andy that he was going to be closed, and Andy was supposed to call her, and he couldn't find her, or something; I don't know. She called Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had she gone to work the night before?
Mrs. POWELL. No. They were notified the night before that they weren't going to work, but the next night for some reason they weren't notified. I don't really know why. But she wasn't.
I think someone else showed up that night too. They didn't know they weren't supposed to work. I don't know who it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Another one of the dancers?
Mrs. POWELL. Another girl, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was working there?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. He had some girls at one time that I didn't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Kathy Kay working there at that time?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she show up?


Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. I just saw this one girl, and she was a new girl, and I think he just got her off the street somewhere just to fill in in the show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Joy Dale? Do you remember Joy Dale?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes, I remember Joy Dale.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she the one that showed up?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't think much of Joy Dale, I take it, from your response?
Mrs. POWELL. No, because I read the article she wrote to a magazine, and it was a bunch of lies, and I don't like people that lie.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She wrote an article about Jack Ruby that wasn't true?
Mrs. POWELL. If they can't tell the truth, they don't need to say anything at all, and she broke her neck to make all these wild statements.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she use her own proper name in that magazine article?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. It was Joy Dale, is what it said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the name that was used, Joy Dale, in the magazine article?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what magazine it was in?
Mrs. POWELL. In a little one. It made me sick. I didn't even buy it. It had a picture of her and pictures of Lynn in there. It was a small type magazine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You all went from the Carousel Club to the Colony?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. I was looking for Pappy to get some money. We were going immediately back to Fort Worth, because I didn't have any reason to be over there. Then we went to the Theatre Lounge, and I found Pappy and I got some money, and we got in the car and went back to Fort Worth and went out to the Three Twelve Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the Three Twelve Club?
Mrs. POWELL. On Lancaster in Fort Worth. (2701 E. Lancaster.)
Mr. GRIFFIN About what time did you get to the Three Twelve Club?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. It must have been around 11.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay there?
Mrs. POWELL. Until they closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was that?
Mrs. POWELL. 12
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mrs. POWELL. Then I took them home and I went home, I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You hesitate. Now, what did you do?
Mrs. POWELL. I either went home or went to the Cellar. I guess I went home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Cellar, is that another club?
Mrs. POWELL.Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the Cellar?
Mrs. POWELL. Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you went to the Cellar?
Mrs. POWELL. Because I went to the Cellar sometimes because the Cellar was open all night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it an all night club?
Mr. POWELL. Yes, sir. That is where the Secret men go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not in the Secret Service.
Mrs. POWELL. Pat said he would probably be called to ask him about getting them drunk on purpose. But they don't have drinks down there. I had a rum and coke.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that rum extract?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes. Anyway, whether I went home or not, I may have gone by the Cellar, or home, one or the two. I really don't remember. I can't remember all those things away back then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember while you were at the Colony Club about Little Lynn and Bruce going out any place?
Mrs. POWELL. No; she made a phone call. Did I tell you she called Jack and asked him?


Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that she called Jack?
Mrs. POWELL. Because I was with her. I didn't go in the phone, but she called him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did she call him?
Mrs. POWELL. From the parking lot. She said she asked him why he didn't tell her that he wasn't going to be open, and he got--this is hearsay. I mean, that is what she repeated to me, and I don't know if I can repeat exactly what she said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she repeat it; at that time?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; right afterward. She was pretty mad, because she made the trip over and everything and they were closed, so she asked Jack why they didn't tell her they were going to be closed. And she said he started hollering at her, "Don't you have any respect for the President?" And she said he was hollering and screaming and was real mad and said that she should have known that he was going to be closed. Anyway, she proceeded to tell him to that she needed some money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much money did she ask him for?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. I think $20 or $25. I think it was $25; I am not sure. And he was going to the synagogue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know he was going to the synagogue?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, because I know he was going to the synagogue. Maybe somebody told me, but I know he went to the synagogue that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that he went that night? How do you know he went the same night the telephone call was made?
Mrs. POWELL. I think that is the night he went to the synagogue, really. I am saying this is a fact, you understand?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that was on Saturday night, or could it have been Friday night that you were at the Colony Club?
Mrs. POWELL. It was the day after the President was shot. What day was that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been a Saturday.
Mrs. POWELL. Well, that is when it was, because the first night they were closed up, and the next night they were all open except Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, did Little Lynn tell you that after her telephone call? Did Little Lynn tell you Jack said he was going to the synagogue?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't remember, but, okay, anyway, he was going someplace, and he couldn't give her the money that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, what makes you think he was going someplace?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, he told her that he couldn't bring the money to her until later, and she wanted to go out to his apartment and pick it up or something. I don't remember, really, too much about it. But he told her that he would send it to her the next day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she get any money there at the parking lot?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the parking lot?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that Jack said he would send it to her the next day?
Mrs. POWELL. Because she said so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she tell you that?
Mrs. POWELL. When she got through talking on the phone, she told Bruce and I, because Bruce didn't have any money, as usual, and they needed the money. She told Bruce that he said he would send it to her the next day. Because he was planning to stay closed, he told her, for 3 or 4 days, or until Monday, I think he said. Or I don't remember. I think he was going to stay closed until Monday, or until after the funeral, he was going to stay closed. She could tell you more about that. But I know he was going to send her the money, because she told Bruce.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure you didn't stay up in the club while she made that phone call, at the Colony Club?
Mrs. POWELL. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You seem to have a pretty vivid recollection of being down there.


Mrs. POWELL. I know when we went, we stopped at the parking lot, when we went to the club, and it was closed. I know she made a phone call from the parking lot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mrs. POWELL. Because I know she didn't make it in the club. I don't think she did. Hell, she may have. She might have; I don't remember, really. All I know is what she came back and said after she got through talking on the phone. What she said is that Jack was real mad and was hollering, "Don't you have any respect for the President," and said that he couldn't bring her the money right then, or something, but that he would send it to her the next day, something. And I know Bruce wanted to know if we could go by and pick it up, and we discussed that, but for some reason he was going to send it; I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't remember getting any money on Saturday night?
Mrs. POWELL. Her getting any money?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know where she would get it from, because she was with me, and we didn't go any place to get any money. I didn't loan them any money. I came over to get money from Pappy myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn't Lynn borrow any money from Pappy?
Mrs. POWELL. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She was with you when you went to Pappy's?
Mrs. POWELL. I think I cornered Pappy in the parking lot, and I think that they stayed up in the club, in the Colony Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody up in the Colony Club that worked for Jack?
Mrs. POWELL. Nope.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were any of his friends up there?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't remember whether I did or not. I remember seeing Abe. I don't really remember. I don't recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any stops between Dallas and Fort Worth on the way back?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go past Jack's apartment?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You seem to have some hesitation?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, the reason I am doing that is because I know there was some sort of discussion about going by there to pick the money up, which we didn't. I don't think we did. I think that we went directly to Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You hadn't made any arrangements yourself to see either Jack or Ralph Paul Saturday night, had you?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Ralph that day at all?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I don't think I talked to him that day. I don't think I did. I may have, but I don't think I so. I don't' remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were still dating Ralph at that time?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't remember that either. I was trying to remember. I don't think so. I don't remember. I just can't remember things like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw him the next day?
Mrs. POWELL. I am the one that called him and told him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you called him?
Mrs. POWELL. I was at home. He was at work, and a friend of mine called me and told me that Jack had done this thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called you?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know, one of my girl friends. Two or three of my girlfriends. Betty, this friend of mine, called first.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Betty's name?
Mrs. POWELL. Betty Stowbaugh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else called you?
Mrs. POWELL. I think Barbara called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is she?
Mrs. POWELL. Barbara Wagner. Why do you want to know all the people that called? It was on TV, and they called to let me know.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else called you?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. I know those two called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn call you?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; but Betty called me as soon as it happened, before they knew who did it, and she told me to turn it on channel something real quick, and the TV was on already, but I had just gotten up, and I ran in there, and then they kept saying Jack Luey, and I thought well, that is not him. It was on TV. They said Jack Ruby did it. Then they said Jack Ruby, and I called Ralph and told him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Ralph say?
Mrs. POWELL. He said, "No; he didn't." And I said, "Yes; he did." "No; he didn't do that," he said. "He is at home." And I said, "No; he is not. He did it." So he said he would call the apartment, "And call you right back." So, he called the apartment, and there was no answer, and he had a radio down there, and somebody came in or something on the radio and told him that it happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know Ralph called Jack's apartment?
Mrs. POWELL. He told me. That is what he said he was going to do, Call the apartment. He said he was home and was going to call to see if he was at home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mrs. POWELL. I was there at the house and he said he would call me back. I don't know whether I called him or he called me, but anyway, we spoke on the phone again, and he knew that it was Jack that had done it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you?
Mrs. POWELL He couldn't believe that he would do it. So he said he was going to come over right away to see about helping Jack, and wanted me to go with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn't he mention that he talked with Jack the night before?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you about that?
Mrs. POWELL. He just said he spoke to Jack, and that Jack was very upset, and I think he wanted to go someplace.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he want to go?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. I think he wanted Ralph to go someplace with him or something special and Ralph didn't feel like going or doing anything that night. He just didn't feel like doing anything, and I think he talked to Jack two or three times that night and he kept calling him at home, and he woke him up a couple of times. I know Ralph felt bad about it because he felt if he had come over and gone out with Jack, maybe he wouldn't have gotten into a state of depression.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, didn't Ralph mention to you that Jack told him he had a gun and Jack was thinking about shooting Oswald Saturday night?
Mrs. POWELL. No; he didn't tell me that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Don't you remember him saying that over at the Bull Pen Drive-in when you went over there?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember him saying over there?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't remember him saying anything except that Ralph didn't have any idea that Jack was even contemplating such a thing. He didn't. I mean, I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mrs. POWELL. Because I know Ralph, and I know Jack, and I know that Ralph didn't have any idea, because he and Jack were very good friends, and if Ralph had had any idea at all whatsoever that Jack was planning to do something like that, he would have stopped him, or tried to stop him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, don't you think if Jack did have that sort of idea, that he would have told Ralph about it?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, no; not especially, because Jack is the type of person that is not too sure what he is going to do himself, because he is not too sure that he would tell somebody that he is going to do something at such and such a time, because he is not sure himself.


Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you all talk about when you got over to the Bull Pen that morning?
Mrs. POWELL. I just went to the Bull Pen and immediately got in the car and came over here, and we went down to the city hall, and we went in.
In the meantime, George Senator came down, and they arrested him, so the lawyers came over, and Ralph called Tommy Howard, or I think Tom Howard, and we were down in the police station to see Jack and see about him and the lawyers came in a couple of hours, and they got us out of there right away, because they said they were afraid they might lock us up too, because they had already grabbed George and put him in jail. So, they took us across the street to the office, and we were sitting there hoping that what's-his-name wouldn't die.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to George at all that day?
Mrs. POWELL. No; we didn't see George. He was in jail. He didn't get out until that evening or that night. We were over there, and Tom Howard, I think, and another lawyer--I know Tom Howard went over and spoke to Jack. They called to see if they could, and he went and spoke to Jack, and then they came back.
In the meantime, we were watching TV and Bill DeMar got on there and said he saw Oswald in the club. And there was a Houston reporter over there asking me all kinds of questions. We were hoping and praying that maybe he wouldn't die, so we were listening to see, and he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go from there?
Mrs. POWELL. Well, we left there and went back to---the drummer was over there--Bill Willis came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To the police station?
Mrs. POWELL. No; the lawyer's office, and there was just people milling in and out that knew Jack. They were all around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Bill Willis happen to come?
Mrs. POWELL. He was down there around the police station and we saw him on the street and hollered, and he came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Bill Willis been down around the police station earlier?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. I saw him walking across the street. I imagine all the people came down when that happened, you know, but then we went back to the Bull Pen, I guess, and I got my car and I went home, I think. I don't remember what I did afterward. I think I went home. I did go home, yes; I did go home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take off someplace?
Mrs. POWELL. I rode with Ralph to the Bull Pen, and I got my car and went home, and I stayed there. Well, he didn't want to be bothered by reporters and all that, because they were poking around, so he went to some friend's house to stay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mrs. POWELL. Because he called me and told me where he was going to be. He said he didn't want to be bothered with a bunch of reporters, because Ralph took it pretty hard, because he liked Jack quite a bit and he took it pretty hard. So he went over to this friend's house and he was over there, and then he went someplace else, and the FBI came and got him. And this Rose woman that worked for him, she cried and said he is like her father.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call Ralph, Johnny, at the Bull Pen?
Mrs. POWELL. No; Johnny is Rose's husband. Rose was crying and called me up and was real upset, and the FBI had taken him and questioned him and wanted me to come over, and I had an interview on TV that night. She wanted me to come over there and go with her. She was crying and hysterical, so I went back to Arlington and got her, and we came to the police station, and they didn't have him down there, so we got back in the car and went down to the FBI. They wanted to talk to me, because they asked Rose, when they got Ralph, if I was with him. So I went down and he questioned me and questioned her, and we went back to Arlington. They had taken him to the Arlington police station and questioned him. So then we went home and went to bed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you hear from Lynn?


Mrs. POWELL. She called me that day that it happened, sometime during the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she have to say?
Mrs. POWELL. I am not even sure that it was Lynn; whether it was Lynn or Bruce. I don't know. Just the same thing everybody was saying, "Did you know that Jack did this, and what do you think about it?" You know; what everybody asked.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she mention anything to you about having talked with him that morning?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I don't believe so. Gosh, it was so hard to remember, because so much happened in just such a short time, and being so involved like right here it is, it is hard to remember all those things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to remember a little harder.
Mrs. POWELL. What do you want me to remember?
Mr. GRIFFIN. What she said in the conversation.
Mrs. POWELL. Well, I don't know. Something like, "Did you see Jack, or did you know Jack shot Oswald, or did you see him on TV," or something. And I said, "Yes"; like, "What do you think about it," or something. I am trying to remember something that happened on Saturday night. I knew that something was terribly wrong with Jack that Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that?
Mrs. POWELL. Because he wouldn't close the club down for any reason at all, and he was very upset. I don't remember now, but I remember making a statement to Bruce and Lynn on the way home that I didn't know what he was up to, but he was up to something. I remember making that statement, because I know him like a book. But I had no idea. I had no idea that this was the thing he was going to do, but I just knew he was going to do something. But we were discussing it on the way back. But what I thought maybe he was going to do, a lot of people figured when this thing happened that the Kennedys were going to come down and close this town up completely, you know, so we figured that, well, that is the only thing.
I figured that maybe Jack was afraid that he might be closed up or something, so he was going to stay closed until after the funeral, or something like that. But I just knew he was going to do something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that you had heard that he had said or done that made you feel that way?
Mrs. POWELL. Nothing; whenever Lynn spoke to him on the phone and when she came back and told us what he had said, and then he was real upset, but the thing that made me think that is because Jack would not close down. We begged and begged him to let us off Christmas or Christmas Day, and there was no way he was going to do it. Ralph said he wouldn't close the club down for anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He stayed open on Christmas Eve and Christmas night?
Mrs. POWELL. No; Ralph told him to close one day. I forget--it was more than two. We closed one or the two. I think it was Christmas Eve when he closed. Yes; it was Christmas Eve when we were closed. But I just knew he was up to something, but in my wildest imagination I didn't dream he would do that. But I figured he had some reason for closing up that way. I was just shocked too, because I happened to remember making that statement to Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Lynn say?
Mrs. POWELL I don't recall that she said anything. I know we were just discussing it in general.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about Bruce?
Mrs. POWELL. Bruce agreed with me that he figured that Jack was up to something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of guy is Bruce?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't like him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that?
Mrs. POWELL. Because he comes on like a junior jiver with a bunch of this hip talk "Man," and this stuff, and I don't like this. And he doesn't work, and Lynn was pregnant, and he beat her up all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he living off her?


Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he prostituting her?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't think so; I really don't know. I didn't care enough to find out that much. I know she was working over here and riding with me, and he just beat on her, and her pregnant, and I don't like it. So I can't like men like that, so I don't care for him too much. As a matter of fact, I absolutely don't like him at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come back with you in the car?
Mrs. POWELL. Back where?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Back to Fort Worth?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; we all three went back and went to that club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then did you take them home?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Bruce have a car?
Mrs. POWELL. I think they were supposed to have a car; but it was in the shop or something, because she had been riding with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody there at the club that night that works for Jack; friends of Jack?
Mrs. POWELL. What club?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The club that you went to with Lynn and Bruce.
Mrs. POWELL. No; just about everybody knows Jack. He knows so many people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce make any telephone calls from the club that night?
Mrs. POWELL. Not that I recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce or Lynn ever say anything to you after Jack shot Oswald that indicated what they had done Sunday morning?
Mrs. POWELL. No; what did they do Sunday morning?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is my secret.
Mrs. POWELL. Tell me so I will know everything. I know that Jack sent her some money, but I didn't find out from her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find out?
Mrs. POWELL. I read it in the papers. I know that he sent some money just before he did that. That is what it said. It said everything in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Kathy Kay after Jack shot Oswald?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't think I saw her. She came to work in Oklahoma City while I was there. She worked up there with me. But I was there 2 weeks before she came up there. She never went back to the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why didn't she go back?
Mrs. POWELL. Because she didn't want to. Because for one thing, she had this boy friend that she had been going with that was a policeman, and they were going to get married, and his parents didn't know she was an exotic, and her parents didn't know she was an exotic--and there was some guy from England--reporters came to her apartment and wanted to interview her, and she didn't want her family in England to know she is an exotic dancer, and she didn't want to be involved in it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you about her contacts with Jack over the weekend?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't recall that she told me anything about it. She was planning on going back to work when he opened the club, but before he opened the club, he did this other thing, so she never did go back. She told Ralph that she wasn't going to come back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about her husband?
Mrs. POWELL. Whose?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kathy's husband?
Mrs. POWELL. She wasn't married then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean she--the guy she did marry, this fellow?
Mrs. POWELL. That is what they said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean she was living with him as man and wife?
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I guess they got married. They said they got married.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he up there in Oklahoma City with her?
Mrs. POWELL. No; he stayed here.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information as to how Jack got into the basement of the police department?
Mrs. POWELL. No; but he could get in anywhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that anybody helped him?
Mrs. POWELL. No; I don't think anybody helped him. You just have to know him. He is probably a lot different now than he was, but if you had known him the way I knew him, and a lot of people knew him, he would do anything. They would have a ball game here every year, Texas-Oklahoma, and it sold out a year in advance, and all the tickets are sold the day before the game and he said, "I am going to the Texas-O.U. game."
And I said, "How will you get in?"
And he said, "I will get in."
And they are taking this guy off to jail, and as he passes by, the guy hands him the ticket, and they are selling the tickets for $25 apiece, and you can't get them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information as to anything he told about what he planned to do?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ralph ever say anything which indicated----
Mrs. POWELL. Ralph did not know. I know that Ralph didn't know he was planning to do that, or Ralph would have tried to stop him. I know Ralph felt badly because Jack wanted to go out and he didn't go, and then he felt badly because he felt like if he had gone, maybe Jack would have confided in him and he could have prevented it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Little Lynn?
Mrs. POWELL. She didn't know anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you say that?
Mrs. POWELL. Because after she spoke to Jack, on the way home she didn't offer any comments or anything about why she thought he was acting that way. She didn't know any more than anybody else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She hadn't told you that she learned anything later after she left you?
Mrs. POWELL. No; she hadn't. I don't know where she learned it from, because I took her home, and they don't have a car, and it was 12 o'clock and the buses weren't running.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you if this diagram, which I have previously marked as Exhibit No. 1, is a reasonably accurate diagram, if you will sign that?
Mrs. POWELL. Do you want me to sign Nancy Powell or Tammi True?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which name do you like to sign?
Mrs. POWELL. It doesn't make any difference to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you sign Nancy Powell.
Mrs. POWELL (signs name).
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else, Nancy, that you think we haven't covered that might be of use to us?
Mrs. POWELL. I don't know. We've spent a lot of time here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the girl that Jack thought had class?
Mrs. POWELL. Bell Praperall, was the girl he thought had so much class. And she came up to the club the last time I saw her, and she was drunk out of her mind, talking terribly vulgar, like some streetwalker, but this girl had class. She did. But Jack made the mistake of telling her that she had class, and boy, I am telling you, she talked there around like something else, but she didn't end up with much class.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to do one more thing. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Nancy Powell Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. It is a copy of an interview that two FBI agents, Glenn Silvi and Dave Byerly had with you on November 29, 1963, in Oklahoma City. I want to hand it to you and ask you to read it and tell us whether that is an accurate report of what you told them on that occasion?
Mrs. POWELL. (reading report). Well, I didn't say that he had never associated. We went into discussion about these carnival people, and he had some dealings with some carnival people at one time. But I mean----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the sentence that says, "She said Ruby was


not, to her knowledge, a gambler, and to her knowledge, never associated with carnival people?"
Mrs. POWELL. Yes; because at one time he had invested in a carnival show. They asked me if I knew this Slayton, and I told him I thought I knew him. Down here it says I said that I believed Ruby formerly had an associate named Joe Slayton. They asked me if I knew Joe Slayton, and I said I thought I did, that I thought he was a partner or something at one time. I never knew Joe Slayton at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, then, if you don't have any other questions in that, to sign that.
Mrs. POWELL. I don't like the way they said that, "An acquaintance with an exotic dancer." Where do you want me to sign this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up at the top.
Mrs. POWELL. Right here?
Mrs. POWELL (signs).
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Nancy Powell Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 3. That is a 3-page document which is a report of an interview that two FBI agents, Gary K. Wilson and Joseph G. Peggs, had with you on November 24 in Dallas.
Mrs. POWELL. I sure wish I had a cigarette. I didn't know really I was going to be up here 10 hours. Very well, where do you want me to sign this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign on the first page at the top.
Mrs. POWELL. (signs name).
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you initial each of the other pages?
Mrs. POWELL. (initials).
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Do you have any questions, Tammi?
Mrs. POWELL. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you very much for spending all this time and coming all the way from Oklahoma City.
Mrs. POWELL. Well, tonight I will hate you. A little later I will be real mad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you working tonight?
Mrs. POWELL. Sure. I didn't get off until 3 o'clock this morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you going to be able to make it back?
Mrs. POWELL. I have to do three shows tonight. I will get back just in time to go to work, and I have to do three shows. I don't have to work tomorrow, though, Sunday. I am going to rest up all day and go out and see all the other people that have to work on Sunday. And I have to write a letter to the Commission.

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