TESTIMONY OF DANIEL PATRICK POWERS beginning at 8H266...
The testimony of Daniel Patrick Powers was taken on May 1, 1964, at Courthouse, Chicago, Ill, by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Daniel Patrick Powers, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined, and testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. This young man is Daniel Patrick Powers. He lives at 401 12th Avenue West, Menomonie, Wis. Did I correctly state those facts?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Powers, I have given you what supplements my telephone conversation earlier in the week, Mr. Rankin's letter--he is general counsel for the Commission--advising you of the creation of the Commission and enclosing the Joint Resolution No. 137, which is a resolution authorizing the creation of the Commission; and President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, which did create the Commission; and then the rules and regulations of the Commission itself for the taking of depositions.
And from those papers and my conversation with you earlier, you are aware, are you not, that the Commission has been enjoined and has the duty of investigating the facts and circumstances surrounding and involved in the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. We have been interviewing a number of witnesses, persons who, by pure happenstance, had some contact with some of the people involved, who became involved in that tragic event.
One of those persons is a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. It is our information that you had some contact with him while you were in the Armed Forces of the United States, and I would like to ask you a few questions if I might. You are an ex-service man?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you were a member of the Marine Corps?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your number was 1497089.
Mr. POWERS. 1497089; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the dates of your service, according to our records, are December 18, 1954---that's wrong, or am I right? You entered the Reserves of the Marines in December 18, 1954, and served in active duty in the Marines November 1, 1956 to October 1, 1958?
Mr. POWERS. What's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that all correct?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you start out by telling us what and who you are right at the moment.
Mr. POWERS. At the moment, presently I'm teaching at the Menomonie Public School System in Wisconsin, and I'm teaching physical education with the additional duties of head football and wrestling coach.
Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And with a family?
Mr. POWERS. Of two children.
Mr. JENNER. Two children. And you're a native-born American?
Mr. POWERS. That's also correct.
Mr. JENNER. And where were you born?
Mr. POWERS. I was born in Minneapolis, Minn. Actually, I believe my birth certificate says Minneapolis, Minn.; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Powers?
Mr. POWERS. Was born in St. Paul, Minn.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during your service in the Marines, did you become acquainted with a man--fellow marine, known as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall him now?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I do.
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Mr. JENNER. When did you--when did that acquaintance first arise?
Mr. POWERS As to the best of my recollection, this acquaintance first arose when I was en route to Jacksonville---rather from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, Miss.; attended school there, and he was a member of the group that was--we were traveling together, and was a senior marine in charge.
Mr. JENNER. Were you the senior marine in charge?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What was your rank at that time?
Mr. POWERS. At that time my rank was private first class.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when was that?
Mr. POWERS. I have the travel orders, and if you want them-----
Mr. JENNER. Fine. If you have anything from which you may refresh your recollection so that we can have the exact date, I appreciate it.
Mr. POWERS. This would be, 2 May 1957 is on the date of these orders.
Mr. JENNER. May 2, 1957?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct. We were authorized to proceed to Shipping and Receiving Station, Keesler----
Mr. JENNER. Check that over again and see if in fact it's the 2d of May 1956.
Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry. 2d of May 1957.
Mr. JENNER. 1957?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
"Effective 3 May 1957, the below listed marines are directed to report to the 3380th Technical Training Group, 3383d Student Squadron, Block 21, Building 17, Shipping and Receiving Section, Keesler Air Force Base, Biloxi, Miss., for duty under instruction, USNAC&W Operators Course No. AB27037, Class 08057, for a period of about 6 weeks. Upon arrival thereat, they will report to the Commanding Officer for duty."
And then it lists six marines with Lee H. Oswald as one of these marines.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'm pleased that you have those orders because an FBI report fixes that time as--in the interview they had with you as you having reported to have been in June of 1956, and in fact it was May 2, 1957?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I have been a little curious as to why you hadn't met him while you were at the Naval Air Technical Center at Jacksonville, Fla. I mean previous to this May 2d order.
Mr. POWERS. There is a possibility, sir; that I had met him, but he doesn't enter into my recollection until this particular period of time. Now, in recalling Jacksonville, Fla., going to school there, the only individual that stands out in my mind, or individuals that were directly concerned with me are the people that I was associated with.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. POWERS. But as far as he was not in this particular social group, if you would like to call it that.
Mr. JENNER. He also was a private, first class at that time, was he not?
Mr. POWERS. I don't believe he was, sir. I believe he was a private. I'll go back to these orders and substantiate that. Yes; that's correct. He was a private, first class, at that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give me the names of--this was a group in which you were the senior and you were. in charge of the travel of your group from the Naval Air Technical Center in Jacksonville, Fla., to----
Mr. POWERS. Keesler----
Mr. JENNER. That is spelled K-e-e-s-l-e-r, Keesler Field, in Mississippi, Biloxi?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And who were the others?
Mr. POWERS. There is a Pfc. Edward J. Bandoni.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have his number there?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, I do.
Mr. JENNER. Read it, please.
Mr. POWERS. 1551427. Pfc. James N. Brereton, 1644586; Pfc. Donald P. Camarata, 1632342.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you check that number again as against mine? I had 1653230, am I in error?
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Mr. POWERS. You're in error, sir. It's 1632342. The next name that appears is Lee H. Oswald, private, first class, 1653230. And the next name is my name, Powers, Daniel P., 1497089. And the next name that appears is Schrand, Martin E., private, first class, 1639694.
Mr. JENNER. And that is spelled S-c-h-a-r-a-n-d?
Mr. POWERS. A-n-d, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, -r-a-n-d. Or just Schrand, is it? Spell it, please.
Mr. POWERS. S-c-h-r-a-n-d.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get that straight because we, do have an incident that occurred with respect to him that I want to ask you about.
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. It did.
Mr. JENNER. Those are all the men. Now, were you fellows destined to be together pretty much as a group from that point on for some time?
Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "destined"?
Mr. JENNER. Did it turn out that the five of you--your assignments from then on were ran relatively parallel?
Mr. POWERS. Up to--you could say that's true to a certain extent. We did attend school there. Then from Mississippi we were assigned orders to go overseas, and report to El Toro, Calif. Here, while we were at Mississippi, it was parallel. We attended the same classes, and in the same particular group as far as the initial starting of training and graduation, if you would like to call it that.
Mr. JENNER Yes.
Mr. POWERS. And then once we got to California, they changed somewhat because some of the people reported in early to California and some of them reported later, so this getting into an overseas draft meant that some were leaving out of California earlier than others, of course, which would mean their assignments as far as orders, were different.
I would say that four of the names mentioned previously, Camarata, Oswald, Powers, and Schrand, went to the Far East; Bandoni and Brereton, I'm not sure where they went. I think they went to the east coast, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. What was your first impression of Oswald when you traveled from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, and Keesler Field, in Mississippi?
Mr. POWERS. Well, my first impression of this individual is that he was somewhat, to use the term, "loner." He was an individual who was normally outside the particular group of marines that were in this attachment to Keesler.
I felt that he was a somewhat younger individual, less matured than the other boys. Again, this was just a personal opinion.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age?
Mr. POWERS. My age at the moment is 27.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And what is the date of your birth?
Mr. POWERS. July 20, 1936. At that particular time I believe I was----
Mr. JENNER. So you were 3 years older than Oswald. He was born October 18, 1939?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did any incident occur during your travel from the Naval Air Base in Jacksonville to Keesler Field in Biloxi, Miss., with respect to Oswald which arrested your attention or was there any question about him?
Mr. POWERS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or was this relatively uneventful?
Mr. POWERS. It was uneventful, you might say. There is nothing that you would care to attach any significance to other than to the fact that for the most of us, this was the first time that we ever were on a train and this was somewhat a new experience for the most part for most of us.
Mr. JENNER. I see. And how many days travel were you given?
Mr. POWERS. I believe it was an overnight travel. So it probably--2 days, May 3 to May 4, is when we actually reported in here; departed Jacksonville, Fla., on 2 May 1957 and arrived in Biloxi, Miss., 4 May. So we reported for duty on that particular day.
Mr. JENNER. So you were then there May 4, 1957?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
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Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of your training, and then after that, give his training, in Keesler Field.
Mr. POWERS. The nature of my training was to be trained in the operation of radar equipment which was used to guide or locate aircraft in the air. His training was completely parallel to mine. It was similar; it was the same in context.
Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of these other men?
Mr. POWERS. That's also correct, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your assignments from day to day were relatively parallel then?
Mr. POWERS. I would think they were exactly parallel as far as attending classes. We went to the same classes, we were at the same level of instruction throughout the whole school. I mean we were brought right along. Some were above the others, and in retention of what they were learning; we still were similar, I would say exact in the classes that we did attend.
Mr. JENNER. These were in general--this was aircraft control and warning operator course?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it included the classes of uses of radar and other aircraft warning devices?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were you awarded the--what is known as the M.O.S., Military Occupation Specialty?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; we were. I ,believe coming out of excuse me---coming out of Jacksonville, Fla., we were given a general M.O.S. of 6700, and then after----
Mr. JENNER. Explain what that means to me.
Mr. POWERS. M.O.S. is a Military Occupational Specialty, and all it does is categorize you as to what you are going to fall in when they issue you orders; and 6700 is aircraft, as I understand; my memory may be somewhat faded or dim.
And when we did come out of Keesler, then we were added the additional digit of 47 which would make us a ground--I better not say "ground control," radar operator for--as a guess, I would call it an early warning system.
Mr. JENNER. And how long did you boys remain at Keesler?
Mr. POWERS. Exact dates would be from 4 May to 4 June 1957, is when we picked up our orders to go to California.
Mr. JENNER. That's a month from the day?
Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry. It says here, "You will stand transferred June 19, 1957, and you will report to your temporary duty station at 12 July 1957." This is when we were 2400 hours--we were supposed to report in the temporary duty station, which was El Toro, Calif.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. From 19 June to 12 July 1957. This was somewhat blurred here. 16 days delay and 4 days travel by commercial. So it would be---June is 30--it would be 11 and 12, which would be 20----
Mr. JENNER. 16 days. 11 and 12, that would be 23 days.
Mr. POWERS. Yes; so actually it must be 19 days and 4 days travel by commercial carrier. 14 days--rather 19 days' delay.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. No; we did not. Most of us went on leave from there to--rather from Mississippi to our homes and spent time there, and then proceeded to California by commercial vehicle.
Mr. JENNER. And were you living in Minneapolis at that time?
Mr. POWERS. No; I was not. My leave address, Rural Route No. 2, Owatonna, Minn. That was my parents' home.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any recollection of Oswald while he was at Keesler? That is, did he continue to be--you used the term "loner"--was he a loner while he was at Keesler Field?
Mr. POWERS. I would say yes and no. A "loner" is a real poor term to use.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. POWERS. I think that he was an individual that found it hard to come in close relationship to any one individual, and I don't say that he was one that
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did try to avoid it, but it seems like almost he was always striving for a relationship, but whenever he did come, he would get into the group or something that his---that his--just his general personality would alienate the group against him.
And to me, he was an individual that--an individual that could come to a point that I don't--that he would come to a point in his life where he would have to face a decision, now, this is just again a personal opinion; he had a large homosexual tendency, as far as I was concerned, and, well, maybe not these tendencies, but a lot of feminine characteristics as far as the other individuals of the group were concerned, and I think possibly he was an individual that would come to a point in his life that would have to decide one way or the other.
Mr. JENNER. On what?
Mr. POWERS. On a homosexual or leading a normal life, and again, now, this is a personal opinion.
And I think this, more than any other factor, was the reason that he was on the outside of the group in this particular group that we were in there in Mississippi.
He was always an individual that was regarded as a meek person, one that you wouldn't have to worry about as far as the leadership was concerned, a challenge for leadership or anything.
He could easily be led, an individual that was influenced I think by education, and was impressed by a person who had some education, an intelligent individual.
He had the name of Ozzie Rabbit, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Of what?
Mr. POWERS. Ozzie Rabbit.
Mr. JENNER. Ozzie Rabbit?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; now, this goes back to what I had said before that he was the meek mild individual that a person felt if he had something, that he wouldn't really fight to keep it. He would take the easy way out to avoid conflict. But then again, I'm trying to recall this in my mind, and I'm not sure whether something--whether it is something that is really true or something that I want to recall----
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like----
Mr. POWERS. About him.
Mr. JENNER. In your testimony, do the best you can to give me your impressions as of that time, as free as it is possible for you to do of influence upon that recollection by the course of events that took place on the 22d of November, and what you read about this and thereafter, because it's important to us to get as objective a report from you as we possibly can.
Mr. POWERS. I realize that. And this is why I say I'm not sure that it's really true or something that you want to remember. It seems to me there was an incident that he had a fight in the barracks at that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You men were quartered together in the same barracks?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct, in the same wing of this particular barracks. They separated the Marines from the Air Force as much as possible, although we did have Air Force personnel in the room with us, two in the room.
It seems to me at this particular time there was some kind of a squabble and I can't recall what it was over, and this was the first time that he actually showed, say, some backbone or willpower that he stood up to somebody, or what the incident was over, I can't recall, but there is something that sticks in the back of my mind there that something came up at this particular time.
He was a good student, as I recall. I can't say that he was any better than anybody else. But again, as an individual he appeared to be just as good as anybody wanted to be.
Mr. JENNER. Our records show that he finished this course seventh in a class of 30. Is that score somewhat of his ability?
Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say; at that time I wasn't qualified to say who was----
Mr. JENNER. Were you boys advised as to how each of you fared in the course of your studies?
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Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say that either. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, I did interrupt the witness when he was talking about his impression about Oswald. Would you read that back to me, please?
(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.)
Mr. JENNER. Had he had this nickname, Ozzie Rabbit, did he acquire that before or--had he already acquired it when you boys came from Jacksonville to Biloxi, or did you give it to him when you arrived at Keesler?
Mr. POWERS. I think it was attached to him at Keesler as far as any individual in our particular group were concerned; this was the first contact that most of us had with each other as individuals. We were brought together here at Keesler, and of coarse, living and going to school together and in close proximity with each other, we did get to know each other personally more than at any other time.
I think this is the period of time that it was attached to my own mind as well as the other people in the group.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you felt he was not aggressive as far as leadership was concerned, and you boys felt that you didn't have to worry about him as competitively?
Mr. POWERS. I would say so, yes; but of course, at this time of our careers, if you would like to call it that, of marines, there wasn't any real significance attached to leadership. It was still--we were all the same rank. Of course, one being in the service longer, there was always a senior marine as far as I was concerned, and I was the marine in charge of this particular class if you--I think this is the way they call it, class or flight squadron, whatever they call it, and well, while at Keesler, I was promoted to corporal, which again was an advancement in leadership, and, of course, there could never be any differentiation of privates.
I was a corporal over privates, first class, and still with the closest relationship that we had there, I don't think there was any rank barrier or difference here.
I think we were all. regarded that we were just marines at this school and not trying to enforce authority at any particular time in which we would get more in the infantry of the Marines. There a corporal is a corporal, but in going to school like this, you wouldn't enforce discipline to a point where people jumped when a person of higher rank said something.
Mr. JENNER. What was your rank when you were mustered out?
Mr. POWERS. Out of the Marine Corps?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. I was a sergeant.
Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he had or might have had homosexual tendencies?
Mr. POWERS. Again, this is an unqualified opinion, and----
Mr. JENNER. Did you say "unqualified"?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, because obviously, I'm not qualified to say one is or is not, but having seen a number of them and seeing their characteristics, as far as manner of walk, dress, and just their personality, I would say possibly his was similar to them in some respects.
Mr. JENNER. You found him a feminine----
Mr. POWERS. I would say yes; a lot of his mannerisms were closely related to other homosexuals that I had seen in my life up to that period of time.
Mr. JENNER. You said, in the course of your general statement, that your group had the impression that he might be easily led. Can you elaborate on that?
Mr. POWERS. Well, let's not say the group felt that he was easy to lead. I felt--let's say that I felt he was easily led, and the group felt that it was kind of a group response that you would get here if what was good for the group was good for everyone, and he would go along with what the group went along with, and he wouldn't go out on the limb as one individual; at least at this particular period of time he did not.
And I would say he was a group response he was easily led; he was responsive to the group as a whole.
At the same time I felt that he was an individual such as I see today. I see
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individuals that they are fascinated by education, and of course, not knowing what his IQ was, and what his capacity for education was---still at the time he impressed me as an individual who was quite intelligent and he would read quite a lot, and so I would say he, by "being led," it would be more of a personal opinion of my own that he was an individual that you could sway.
Now, these are opinions that I have of him after being educated further myself, and seeing people every day, and in the teaching situation that I'm in, that is somewhat similar to a mass hysteria, and I think he is the one that you could brainwash or maybe that's the wrong term.
I think he is the individual that you would brainwash, and quite easy, and this is the opinion of the personality and mind that he did have.
I think once he believed in something, by gosh he believed in it, and he stood in his beliefs.
Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been teaching?
Mr. POWERS. This will be my third year of teaching now.
Mr. JENNER. What is the extent of your formal education beyond high school, if any?
Mr. POWERS The extent of my formal education beyond high school was a Bachelor of Science Degree and presently working on a Master's Degree from the University, and this will either be in physical education or guidance; I'm not sure which way I'll go yet.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have your University of Minnesota education attendance after you left the Marines?
Mr. POWERS. I had 1 year at the university before going to the Marine Corps, and then I went after my service.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware when you were in the service, or this period about which we are speaking, that he had not graduated from high school?
Mr. POWERS. Let's say I wasn't consciously aware of it. I was aware of the fact that I was one of the few boys or the individuals there that had a college education, and consequently also I had, after being in the Marines a short period of time, I had a firm belief in finishing my education.
And I think this here put---or any individual, not only myself, or any individual that had a college education, there was a number of them while I was in the Marines at that particular time that did have a college education, we felt intellectually we were somewhat above these boys in this particular group that we ran in this particular time. And I think this was borne out by the fact that we did more serious reading and we got into less crap games and went on less liberties and things of this nature, and at this particular time, I only had 1 year of college education.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling with respect to Oswald, any disappointment on his part of his limited education at this stage of his life or any thing resulting or desire on his part for further education?
Did you ever have any discussions with him on the subject?
Mr. POWERS. His opinions, is that what you're asking?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. I think that the reason he was in the Marine Corps was there wasn't anything better for him to do at this time, was the reason that he felt, and at least now, in recalling, again trying to recall, he felt this way about it. And he was somewhat of a rolling stone; he didn't care to go to school. And he'd just as soon go into the service to get out of the people's hair at home. This type of attitude.
Mr. JENNER. Did he get into any fights or arguments other than marines jostling around as you would normally do, anything that attracted your attention of any kind?
Mr. POWERS. No; I would not say so. There isn't anything that stays in my mind at this time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you return home and visit your folks during this----
Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Leave before you had to return? You had to be at El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I gathered that you had the impression that he---during this period of time that, this leave period--that he visited New Orleans?
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Mr. POWERS. Now that you brought New Orleans up, he used to--he used to go home to New Orleans from Biloxi there, as I recall again. This was only a short distance, between 50 and 71 miles, and he would go home on weekend passes; and once we were through classes on Friday, we were free as long as we were in class again on Monday morning, as I recall. And it seems to me that he mentioned, or he did go home, that he wasn't in Mississippi or the Biloxi area on weekends.
I might be wrong in this, but it seems to me that he did go all weekend, and I think that you did mention New Orleans, that this possibly sticks in my mind as associated with New Orleans and him at Biloxi, Miss.
Mr. JENNER. When you boys had liberty, did you tend to stick together on your liberties or on occasion take your liberties together, one or more of you?
Mr. POWERS. As I recall now, as soon as school was over every day, we had our liberty cards, we could leave, and then we could come back as long as we were back on base in the morning to attend classes, and at this particular period of time, I was married and my interests were somewhat different than the other fellows.
Mr. JENNER. Was your wife on the base?
Mr. POWERS. No; she was not. She was living with my parents back home in Minnesota, Owatonna. And my liberty usually consisted of going to the beach and lying around suntanning or fooling or swimming, and lots of times maybe three or four of us would go down--in my mind, we used to eat all the spaghetti that we could get down there, and we would go downtown once in a while; but as far as particularly going together, I would possibly say that the boys from the east coast, Bandoni and Brereton, they were quite close, and Camarata, that particular group, they were quite close, and--but if we were just going down to lie around the beach, we would usually go over, and I don't recall Oswald going with us, and I don't recall in my mind that he was on liberty. And this would possibly bear out the fact that it's in my mind that he went to New Orleans on weekends because it seems that he wasn't ever around there.
Mr. JENNER. But even at night when you were excused from class, did he have a tendency to join the group or not join the group on your leave card periods?
Mr. POWERS. Well, there were so many things. Normally, as I recall, it wasn't a general practice that we left the base during the week. Now, we usually stayed around the barracks and either studied or go over to the gym and work out or something of this nature, and I can't recall him in the barracks except when we would have inspection on Saturdays or something in the Air Force doing the inspection, and all the marines were complaining that we shouldn't have to stay for an Air Force inspection, and again this substantiates the idea that he went home to New Orleans because I think it came once a month or something, and we happened to get in the period that we had two of them, and he was anxious to go because inspection was Saturday morning, and he wanted to get out early out of the base to leave, and he had to stand inspection.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a fair statement, Mr. Powers, whether or not he went to New Orleans on his weekend leave, he did not remain in the Biloxi area, is your impression?
Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully because I don't know what you mean by the "Biloxi area." At least he did not remain on the Air Force base. He left the Air Force base. Now, if he remained in Biloxi proper, the town, the community, I'm not sure.
But it was my opinion that he was not in the close proximity. He would be traveling over a period of time, then he would return to the base.
Mr. JENNER. Our records show that at the time he left Keesler to travel to El Toro, he was rated 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in proficiency. What is that? What do those grades mean in terms of the maximum or the minimum?
Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure what the scale--I cannot recollect what the scale is. I think it was 5.0 is the top.
Mr. JENNER. You're right. And would 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in proficiency be a pretty fair rating?
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Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to what you said, he graduated seventh out of 30, it would be 4.5, which would be pretty good in the upper third of his class, so to speak. 4.2 couldn't be too far behind. So I would imagine on a five scale, 3.0 would be average. So 4.2 would be B plus.
Mr. JENNER. How did that compare with yours, by the way?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know what mine was.
Mr. JENNER. You don't?
Mr. POWERS. No; I don't have any idea what my proficiency report was.
Mr. JENNER. I see. I take it that none of you boys traveled together to El Toro, you went by your own respective routes?
Mr. POWERS. Camarata and myself, seems to me we flew into Chicago together, and from there on, he went to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And I continued on to Minneapolis in the plane there; there was another marine that went with us from, I think now, from Mississippi--from Biloxi into New Orleans. We went on the bus together.
Mr. JENNER. Was it one of your group?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. It was one of our group that was leaving. And I want to say, it was Bandoni----
Mr. JENNER. That's your best recollection?
Mr. POWERS. But once into New Orleans, it seems that Camarata and I--this is going through my mind of the limousine and on to the airport, and we continued on. Maybe there was three of us, I'm not sure. But it seems to me there was two of us, and I think we were at a movie theater, as my mind goes on. And we did run into some of the other fellows there.
Mr. JENNER. But not Oswald?
Mr. POWERS. I can't say truthfully if we ran into him or not.
Mr. JENNER. And El Toro is the Marine station----
Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was your reporting date at El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. My reporting date at El Toro was 2400, 12 July 1967.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of what Oswald did during the intervening period, that is, this leave period?
Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. Except possibly there was something that was stuck in my mind; we were on the ship going overseas, he mentioned Texas and his mother. That's all that I can recollect.
Mr. JENNER. So that he might have visited his mother in Texas?
Mr. POWERS. It stays in my mind of Texas and his mother. Whether this is truly true or not, it sticks there, And what the relationship was, I don't know, or if he did visit her or when, I'm not sure. I think I was under the opinion that he was from Texas. He used to say--I want to say Dallas, but I'm not sure again if that is planted----
Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; maybe it was Fort Worth, but it was some place in Texas, but I can't say for sure with everything going; again I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything during these periods or thereafter of having been a boy in New Orleans up to his high school period, having lived for a while in Texas?
Mr. POWERS. Now, Texas and New Orleans are not associated in my mind. New Orleans, this is where he used to go on weekends; this is where he used to go quite a bit when he was in Mississippi. But as far as, let's say, hometown, or home State, it was in my mind; it stuck it was Texas, but there was no relationship between both of them other than .this is where he went.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain at El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. We arrived the 12th of July in El Toro, Calif. This is when I reported in. Now, when I actually went overseas, it was in the August draft, I don't--to be truthful, I can't say when I went overseas. It was sometime in August, around the first of August.
Mr. JENNER. Could it have been the middle of August, August 15th?
Mr. POWERS. It's possible. I cannot say for sure.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. POWERS. I have no record of when I did actually.
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Mr. JENNER. All right. Assuming that was the date, you were at El Toro approximately a month then?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your classification there?
Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "classification"?
Mr. JENNER. Well, our records show that Oswald was classified as a replacement trainee.
Mr. POWERS. That's probably what I was, too, a replacement trainee for overseas.
Mr. JENNER. What was Oswald's response or attitude toward higher authority?
Mr. POWERS. Up to this particular period of time, I don't think he showed any attitude or response to higher authority other than he was like the rest of the trainees, if you want to call it that; he did what he was told and that was it.
I think his aggressive attitude came after he was away from his initial exposure to the Marine Corps-type discipline.
Mr. JENNER. Were you with him during that period of time?
Mr. POWERS. I was with him overseas. Well, he was actually in the same unit as I was until I came home, and this is where I noticed that he had started to be more aggressive, and outgoing in his manner. In other words, he took on a new personality, and now he was Oswald the man rather than Oswald the rabbit.
Mr. JENNER. This was after you boys got overseas?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. I think--this is when I noticed--it can be safe to say that he did start to have more incidents of where he would stand for his own rights if there were rights to be had. In other words, he was going to take everything that came, and he wasn't going to let anybody else get what he could have.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything in the particular incident that you think might be helpful to the Commission during that 1-month period of time that you were at El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. At this particular time, I have no memory of the individual at all. It seems to me that he reported in after I did, I think, and this is where again something is in my mind of Texas. He said he was in Texas for this period of time, and him coming--being there first--the most we got into--I think we got into an August draft, and I don't think he was in the same draft that I was in. I think I reported in and got in the July draft.
Now, again, I'm not sure on this, but it seems to me that he was in a different draft than I was, and we were all in the same barracks to start, and then they separate you in these replacements drafts, and again it's in my mind when he reported in or possibly he came in late off his leave, he took an extra week or something.
It might be in my mind, I can't say for sure, but it still remains there, that he was in Texas or Texas was the area he was visiting or he took his leave in.
Mr. JENNER. Well, then, you were you boys were shipped out from El Toro?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. For overseas?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he on the same ship?
Mr. POWERS. Well, he must have been in the same draft; he was on the same ship.
Mr. JENNER. From what port did you sail?
Mr. POWERS. In my--we left from San Diego.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the ship?
Mr. POWERS. No; I don't remember the name of the ship.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I uttered the name Bexar, B-e-x-a-r; would that mean anything to you?
Mr. POWERS. I think possibly, yes; I think it was on the Peter boats and Mike boats.
Mr. JENNER. What is a Mike boat?
Mr. POWERS. These are the terms given to these landing crafts.
Mr. JENNER. That were on the ship itself?
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Mr. POWERS. Yes; they're running over the ship; they're used for loading and unloading of supplies and running back and forth while we're on the harbor, taking people off leave and from.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your embarkation was--would you check your orders, the 21st of August, am I correct?
Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. From here I don't have any orders.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. POWERS. I think these orders are all in the group orders, and they are not given to individuals as such.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. You went from San Diego to what port, what foreign port?
Mr. POWERS. Yokohama. Again, I'm not sure. I think it was Yokohama.
Mr. JENNER. Yokosuka rather than Yokohama?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; there is two of them right in the same proximity. Yokosuka is probably the right one. I'm not sure now.
Mr. JENNER. What was the military base?
Mr. POWERS. That we reported to?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. Atsugi.
Mr. JENNER. A-t-s-u-g-i?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the Marine base?
Mr. POWERS. Navy base with Marine squadrons flying out of it, but it's primary mission is a Navy base.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were these same boys, Bandoni, Brereton, Camarata, yourself, Schrand, and Oswald, were you still a group?
Mr. POWERS. I don't think Bandoni was part of the group; no. He must have been because I have pictures. I don't think that he----
Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have pictures of--any pictures of these taken during the course of your time in the Marines which Oswald appears in?
Mr. POWERS. Just the one picture that I have of him appearing is a class-type photo when we got out of Keesler Air Force Base, and it shows Marine and Air Force personnel that graduated.
I have never run across any pictures of him of barracks life or anything like that.
Going back to your original question: Brereton was on it, and Camarata and Schrand--maybe Schrand came later, I can't say for sure. But Oswald and myself, but I think that Bandoni went on the east coast, but Brereton went to Iwakuni, which is another Air Force rather Marine base, and Camarata went down to a helicopter base somewhere in Japan, down in the harbor somewhere. I used to call him on the phone once in a while and talk to him.
And Brereton, I think--no, by gosh, maybe Bandoni was down at--no, that was Mike Cainey. We were flying between the Philippines, and if he would stop in at Iwakuni, I would stop in and see Mike.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. POWERS. Iwakun, this is a base in the lower part of Japan.
Mr. JENNER. I-o-w-c------
Mr. POWERS. I-o-w-a-k-o-n-n-i, I think. Iwakuni--i-e-, possibly. I think it's -i. I don't know. I'm lost, where I was. It seems to me that Brereton was over there, too, at Iwakuni, but I don't recall if I possibly saw him over there once or twice; it was either on a football trip or when I was flying down to the Philippines after wrestling season.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about the trip over to Yokosuka, the life on the boat and what he did and what you did and what things you did together, if anything, conversations that you had, those that you overheard, your opinion of him during that period, and reaction of the platoon or group to Oswald.
Mr. POWERS. At this particular period of time, now, you're starting to get into, say, the rank association that people of higher rank associate with people of lower rank at this particular period of time, you do see it more coming in the group relationship and this was brought about by my becoming a corporal, and I wasn't assigned some of the tasks that the privates, first class, and privates were assigned, and I recall I didn't have to do anything going over, and there were
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some duties assigned naturally, and with him as an individual, I can remember that he taught me how to play chess going over, and he was quite a proficient chess player, and, well, let's not say he was not real proficient; he used to beat me, and it wouldn't take too much proficiency to beat me. And he would sit and play, and we would maybe play--usually we played I game a day, and sometimes we would play 4 to 8 hours, playing chess.
Mr. JENNER. Four?
Mr. POWERS. Four to eight hours playing chess. And I got to a point where I beat him once in a while, and it would irritate him a little bit that someone beat him, but not to a point where he would get violent or anything of this nature, but he was real happy and pleased when he would win.
And again looking back at this, it gives me some impressions about him. He was real happy to win, like he was accomplishing something in his life.
And he used to read quite a bit. I remember we got these paperbacks, and there was some good literature in these, and he would swap books back and forth, and he would never be reading any of the shoot-em-up westerns or anything like that. Normally, it would be a good type of literature; and the one that I recall was "Leaves of Grass," by Walt Whitman. And he had it for a period of time, and I would want to read it for myself, and as it came about, he did let me have It. I think I still have the book.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the titles of any other books that he read?
Mr. POWERS. Oh, I'm not saying that he read them, but the reason that I recall these titles is because I still have most of these paperbacks that I kept quite a few of these, and they were the "Age of Reason," and "Age of Enlightenment," and whether he read these or not, I'm not sure. But I think there is something on the "Greatest President of the United States," and democracy, and books of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain these books?
Mr. POWERS. They were given to the troops---I'll use that for a lack of a better term--periodically throughout the voyage going over, where they got them, I don't know. I think they probably just picked them up and it was standard procedure, I assume.
Mr. JENNER. They were books that were distributed through the Marines?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you could read them or not as you saw fit?
Mr. POWERS. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is that you do recall Oswald did read "Leaves of Grass"?
Mr. POWERS. Right. Whether he read the other books, I'm not sure, but this leads me to the impression that he was trying to read something that was deeper than the average paperback that you see in the drug store or something of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. These were books which you were interested in?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; these were books which I was interested in mainly because the image that I held at that time that I was more educated than the other individuals and in order to maintain this image, and for my own personal satisfaction as well, I read these books, and I think this is--whether he read these books for his own personal satisfaction or to create an image similar to the ones that we had--I say "we," the people that had more education than the average marine there.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader?
Mr. POWERS. What do you mean by the word "voracious"?
Mr. JENNER. Did he read a great deal?
Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say. I think everyone at that particular time read more than they possibly did at any other period that they had in the Marine Corps. Mainly, you are in a limited space and this was the thing to do; it was easy to do, and you could entertain yourself this way.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. I take it it was not your impression, then, at least at this stage of the game, he devoted a great deal of his time to reading as distinguished from what other Marines were doing in that regard?
Mr. POWERS. Well, I don't know. It seems to me when we were in Mississippi that he did read some he was doing further reading than other--what the
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normal individual was doing at that time. I can't recall what would substantiate that in my mind; it just stuck in my mind that he did some reading, or all during this period of time that he was an individual that, rather than play poker or go out on liberty, he was just as well content to stay and read a book or things of this nature, and this may be that he was outside of the group and he did this to----
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned poker, so I assume that you played poker on the trip over?
Mr. POWERS. I don't play. I don't play cards.
Mr. JENNER. Well, were there poker games, however, on the way over?
Mr. POWERS. I imagine there was. There was card games to some nature, whether it was poker or something, I don't know. To be truthful, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald engage in the card games whenever there were----
Mr. POWERS. I don't know; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did any gambling?
Mr. POWERS. I don't recall; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else that you recall occurred on this ship, either something that occurred or impressions that you have or now have of this man during this period of time?
Mr. POWERS. No.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of perhaps refreshing your recollection, was there an occasion in which he made some comment that "All the Marine Corps did was to teach you to kill," and after you got out of the Marines, you might be good gangsters?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; he made that statement. Now, whether it was at this particular period of time or not, I'm not sure.
Mr. JENNER. You do recall that he made that statement?
Mr. POWERS. That statement was made and I think it was--he was probably parroting somebody else that made the statement previously. And I think it was this was a common statement, but as I recall, he---he did say this.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. But now when we were playing chess at one period of time, whether it was on the ship or not, I'm not sure, possibly it could have been in Japan, but it would most likely have been on that ship.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that this you might classify as some griping----
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Over the Marines?
Mr. POWERS. This would be normal.
Mr. JENNER. Or something similar?
Mr. POWERS. You wouldn't attach any significance to it. Someone would say, "The Marine Corps stinks," or something of this type, and whether one individual said it or another, you wouldn't attach any significance to it.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Atsugi is about 35 miles from Tokyo, isn't it?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugki, what was your assignment?
Mr. POWERS. We were assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron No. 1, and assigned to crews within this squadron.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some abbreviation for that?
Mr. POWERS. MACS 1, M-A-C-S 1.
Mr. JENNER. And you were headquartered at the naval air station at Atsugi, Japan?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald--what did he serve as? I mean, was he a radar operator?
Mr. POWERS. I assume he was a radar operator. From here I lost almost total contact with the individual other than just seeing him. I played football during the fall and during this period of time we would play, we played in the bowl games, and the squadron went down to the Philippines, and I stayed in Japan.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't go to the Philippines?
Mr. POWERS. I did at a later date, but when the rest of the squadron went
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down to the Philippines, they went down, oh, I don't know, probably sometime in November, and I stayed down and played football, and then after that, I was wrestling--I wrestled for a while, and then out of the blue came orders to go to the Philippines, and from that time, I think this was sometime in the middle of January----
Mr. JENNER. What was the function of MACS 1?
Mr. POWERS. It was a squadron composed of a radar group.
Mr. JENNER. About how many men?
Mr. POWERS. Oh, in estimating, I would say 100 personnel at the most, and its function was to support landings with the control of aircraft to particular target areas or target sites, and you would control the aircraft by radar rather than trying to use it all by visual flight.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "control aircraft," what do you mean by that?
Mr. POWERS. You would not actually control the aircraft by flying it yourself, the operator or pilot would have to control the aircraft, and you would direct him as far as his turn is concerned, and his degrees, and turn 90° right, and you would control him to an intercept, so to speak, to another aircraft and you would intercept it until he got in range or where he could see it visually, and they took over.
Mr. JENNER. And you would be communicating with him in some fashion?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; you would have him on radio, and at the same time, when we were in Atsugi, we were assigned, it seems to me, a particular sector of the horizon to cover to protect against incoming foreign aircraft, and you plotted it all on the board. You called it a "bogey" coming in, and they would scramble aircraft and intercept this bogey, if it didn't have the identification system on.
Mr. JENNER. And were these simulated enemy----
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I would say in our operations that they were in the Philippines, as I recall, it was all simulated. When we were in Japan, however, you would get the actual thing where you would have the scramble aircraft on a hot bogey--I think is the term that they used--and maybe it would be a Russian aircraft or Chinese aircraft straying into this particular area, and they would scramble aircraft after it and go up and take a look-see. And that is as far as I knew.
Mr. JENNER. And so while you were in Japan, you would be actually looking for hot bogeys?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I actually never spent that much time on the site. I was playing football or----
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. So as I recall, that is what we used to do.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald play football?
Mr. POWERS. No; he was not athletic in any form.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't engage in any athletics?
Mr. POWERS. Not while I was in contact with him; no.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned when you boys were in Keesler you sometimes went to the gym. Did he go to the gym and work out?
Mr. POWERS. I can't recall that he ever did; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You eventually rejoined the squadron or the group, did you, in the Philippines?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And when was that?
Mr. POWERS. Oh, it was in the middle of January or February.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?
Mr. POWERS. Of 1958; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And where in the Philippines?
Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point.
Mr. JENNER. C-u-b-i?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; Cubi Point.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of that installation?
Mr. POWERS. This was just temporary quarters for the squadron. They were caught in between. They were at an operation early in November and then this---something----
Mr. JENNER. That would be November of 1957?
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Mr. POWERS. Yes. Something flared up, I believe, in Indonesia, somewhere in that area, and they held the squadron on the ship for a particular Period of time; and then there was another operation going to start in February or sometime, or March, and they just----
Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; instead of sending them back up to Japan, and then have to come all the way back again, they just put them ashore at Cubi Point. And they just set up a temporary base and continued the operation out of there. There was actually no radar site setup at that area, and we just got the gear and other materiel and trucks and apparatus and things, and equipment was repaired and made ready for the next operation.
Mr. JENNER. And during your stay at the Philippines, were you ever at Subic Bay instead of Cubi Point?
Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point and Subic Bay are at close proximity. Cubi Point is the landing actually, and Subic Bay is the harbor, and you can almost call it one actual installation as far as I was concerned, but they were designated---Cubi Point was the landing strip and Subic Bay was the landing area.
Mr. JENNER. In some of Oswald's autobiographical material prepared either then or later, he refers to the fact that it was at Subic Bay, and that doesn't appear in the official orders, and we wondered where he got that, and now you explained it for us.
Mr. POWERS. You traveled in between both, as far as they had the swimming paint there; I remember it was at Subic--isn't it S-u-b-i-c?
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to say it.
Mr. POWERS. I thought it was Subic; I'm probably wrong.
Mr. JENNER. I won't say that you're wrong. I think you're right. It's Cubi Point and Subic Bay.
Mr. POWERS. Yes; there was actually one installation in my mind. They were separated, but one was the harbor for the ships and the other was for the aircraft.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was the same group that we that you described earlier that came from Jacksonville, Fla., still together at Cubi Point when you rejoined the squadron?
Mr. POWERS. All but certain elements. I think the people in my particular group that originated in Jacksonville, the only people that were left was Schrand, Oswald, and myself. And the rest of them were dispersed in Japan or the Far East area or in the United States somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. And did an incident occur with respect to Mr. Schrand?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; he was--this happened after I arrived from the Japanese mainland. He was on guard duty one evening and he was shot to death. Now, I have never seen the official report or anything, but the scuttlebutt at that time was that he was shot underneath the right arm and it came up from underneath the left neck, and it was by a shotgun which we were authorized to carry while we were on guard duty.
Mr. JENNER. Were these also sometimes called riot guns?
Mr. POWERS. Riot guns; yes. And that is the only thing that--significance I attach to it other than he was either leaning against the shotgun or was fooling with it, but he was shot anyway.
Mr. JENNER. Was there you don't know what the official finding was with respect to----
Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. I never had access to anything of this nature.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt about it?
Mr. POWERS. No; other than that he was fooling with the weapon. Other than that, we couldn't--as I recall, we could never realize how a 'guy could have shot himself there other than he was leaning on it this way [indicating], and "boom," it went off.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you boys were concerned at that time, was there any scuttlebutt or speculation about anyone of you being involved in that incident?
Mr. POWERS. Not to my recollection at all.
Mr. JENNER. When I say "you," that includes Oswald.
Mr. POWERS. Not that I know of; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Weren't there some instructions in connection with the use
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of those riot guns when you were on guard duty that you would keep the chamber free of slugs?
Mr. POWERS. I'm almost sure again I can't say for sure, but it seems to me that we were issued three shells, and--again, I'm not sure; it seems to me that we were not supposed to put them in the weapon or supposed to put them in the weapon and keep it out of the chamber; in other words, you jacked it into the chamber if you needed it, but your chamber itself should be kept free.
Mr. JENNER. To avoid accidents?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think this was the rule because you would have to click them to get them out this way and to avoid an incident such as happened.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys do any maintenance work in connection with your radar scanning assignment?
Mr. POWERS. We were not trained to do it; no. They had the assigned personnel do it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything in this connection with respect to guard duty relating to some kind of a special airplane?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, we this happened again, I think, after the rest of the squadron left to go hack to the Japanese mainland, and some of us were assigned temporary duty in Cubi Point there. I believe there were two of us, or three of us from the squadron.
Mr. JENNER. Who were they?
Mr. POWERS. Murphy; I believe, was one of them; and Private----Private, First Class Murphy, and I don't recall the other individuals, who the other individuals were, but anyway, we were assigned there, and at this particular time, they were closely guarding a hangar. And as it developed, this was, not knowing then what it was, it was a U-2 aircraft, but this was after the rest of the squadron left, which Oswald was included in, for the mainland.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald was included in a group that had returned to the mainland?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald still at Cubi Point when Marine Schrand was shot?
Mr. POWERS. I believe he was; yes. The whole squadron was there then, so he must have been there: yes.
Mr. JENNER. But Schrand's guard duty was not guard duty in connection with these special airplanes of which, you now speak?
Mr. POWERS. Well, no; I don't believe so. I can't say that for sure, what it was regarding. But I don't think so. I think they were on the site guarding the equipment that he had there, and it seems to me that the Air Force moved in that particular hangar after the squadron went up. I think this is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a--did you have an assignment when you were shipped to Corregidor?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; this assignment came between when I originally flew in to Cubi Point and then the squadron went on another operation where they were preparing--after they prepared their equipment there, and we went down to Corregidor and we stayed there approximately a month or 6 Weeks at the most, and then we came back and then the people, they dropped off the four or five personnel that were on temporary duty, and then the rest of the squadron continued, on to the mainland.
Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald part of the group that was assigned to Corregidor?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; the whole squadron was assigned to it.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you do at Corregidor?
Mr. POWERS. We participated in a--I think it was the 3d Marine Division in the operation of military exercises.
Mr. JENNER. The same sort of thing that you had been doing back in Cubi Point?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; with the exception now that we were plotting simulated aircraft, scanning for it.
Mr. JENNER. Any incident occur during that period involving Oswald?
Mr. POWERS. No; nothing that I recall. Something sticks in my mind about being on mess duty, but I can't recall what the incident was. I have a picture of it in my mind.
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Mr. JENNER. You did mention to the FBI when you were interviewed that he was on mess duty, and I assume in the first place he was not on mess duty all the time while he was in the Philippines, was he?
Mr. POWERS. No; you're assigned--privates and privates first class are assigned this duty periodically. I think you're assigned one week out of the year.
Mr. JENNER. This was not a mess duty assignment by way of punishment?
Mr. POWERS. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you at Corregidor, a couple of months?
Mr. POWERS. I want to say 4 to 6 weeks, but it could have been longer.
Mr. JENNER. What was your means of transportation to and from Corregidor?
Mr. POWERS. LST.
Mr. JENNER. That's landing ship tank?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when was this? Along about March of 1958, is that your recollection?
Mr. POWERS. I think it was; it was in this late-February-early-March Period.
Mr. JENNER. When you returned to Cuba Point, you stayed there, but Oswald and some of the other members of the squadron returned to Japan?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think they left out four, four of us stayed behind at Cuba Point.
Mr. JENNER. Did. you do--did you return then to Atsugi?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. About when?
Mr. POWERS. I think it was in May.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; late April or early May of 1958.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugi, was Oswald there?
Mr. POWERS. During this period of time, I think he was there, but it was shortly thereafter or just before I got there he was--he shot himself in the hand or in the leg or something. I don't remember which part of the body it was.
Mr. JENNER. In the left arm or elbow.
Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. I couldn't truthfully say what it was. He was in a different part of the barracks and I think it was in the evening that they hauled him out in an ambulance; yes, it must have been.
Mr. JENNER. What-was your information and what is still your information with respect to that incident? How it occurred, and whatnot.
Mr. POWERS. He was fooling with a weapon, whether he was cleaning it or what he was doing with it; I don't know. You see, this is what I recall: He was cleaning the weapon and it accidentally discharged, and he was hauled away, and I think he was charged with carrying a concealed weapon or something of this nature; I'm not sure.
They brought him up for court-martial. Whether he was actually court-martialed then, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. This was a privately owned weapon?
Mr. POWERS. I think so. All the less, it wasn't--I don't think it was a Government issue; I think it was a small caliber. I think it was a .22.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; .22 pistol.
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr., JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt about that particular incident, if any?
Mr. POWERS. Nothing. It--just the name again stuck to--"Ozzie screwed up again," or something. That was probably the general statement. I think this was the feeling of the group at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you used an expression "screwed up again." I'm going to ask you now what was the reputation of Oswald and the attitude of the squadron with respect to him----
Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to----
Mr. JENNER. During this period of time?
Mr. POWERS. I think this idea of him being a somewhat weaker individual held--well, tie was in the squadron here physically he was not an overpowering individual, and "Ozzie," I think, stuck with him most of the time through the time he was in the Marines or at least the Period that I was associated with him, and he did what he was told and never went out of the way to do any
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more, or just doing the least minimum that he could do as far as any type of work or anything like that, and he would screw up once in a while; and now in the terms of the Marine Corps, it would mean that he wouldn't always present himself in a first-class manner as far as dress or shave or sloppy in appearance sometimes.
Mr. JENNER. And how was he getting along with his fellow Marines during this period?
Mr. POWERS. I think they accepted him just as they did everyone else, because again you have a mixture of personalities, and I don't recall that he was friendly with any one particular person more than the other. Again I'm not sure because he was in this particular crew----
Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt or rumor that he shot himself to get out of the service?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know. There might have been. Now, that you recall--you say that, you recall it to my mind; I'm not sure whether I want to recall it or something that is actually fact.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully.
Mr. JENNER. But any matter, it was pure scuttlebutt; it was pure speculation?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, because nobody actually knew what was going on.
Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt as to his court-martial; was that he-cause he had the, unregistered or private weapon?
Mr. POWERS. Now that you say that, this court-martial, this is maybe where they came in and they were going to try to give him a court-martial for shooting himself to get out. Again, maybe this is something again that I want to recall or if it's actually true; now that you mentioned it, there is something of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. When you use the expression "something that you want to recall," what you mean by that, I take it, is you want to avoid the tendency to recall something that----
Mr. POWERS. I have heard somewhere else.
Mr. JENNER. More than a speculation or hearsay, and you're telling me that you're trying to confine yourself to actual fact?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you're making that distinction for that reason?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any rumor or scuttlebutt that he at one time had been given some psychiatric attention?
Mr. POWERS. Now that you mentioned it, he might have been put in the--he might have been sent to the psychiatric ward in Yokohama; I'm not--again now that you mentioned it, again it comes in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any--is .this in the area of guessing?
Mr. POWERS. It's scuttlebutt-type of thing. It's guessing and no way to substantiate it or anything of this nature.
Mr. JENNER. Okay. What did Oswald do for entertainment on leaves?
Mr. POWERS. This seems to me now that he made a statement, and this was after he went out and procured or secured a female companionship and set up housekeeping or whatever you want to call it in Japan, and this was common practice and it seems to me at one time he made a statement that he didn't care if he returned to the United States at all. Now, I'm almost--well, I can't say for sure, but I attribute this statement to him again.
Mr. JENNER. Did he set up housekeeping, set up some Japanese girl; is that what you mean?
Mr. POWERS. Yes. This is--this was the normal procedure over there, the practice with a lot of individuals, and I think that he was one of the ones that did--went for this type of thing. I'm not sure whether he did, but I can attribute this statement to him that he did.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you have a recollection of him having said that somewhere?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; he said that, and again looking back, he was finally attaining a male status or image in his own eyes, and this is why he wanted to stay in that particular country.
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Mr. JENNER. But he did say something to the effect that he'd just as soon stay in Japan?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than return to the United States?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you given liberty when you were at Atsugi the way you were given liberty at Biloxi, that is, at certain hours of the day or on weekends, you would have liberty?
Mr. POWERS. Gee, you have to secure liberty cards to get off the base at Atsugi, and by doing this, some weekends you had a duty weekend, and---but you have to be all squared away as far as your duty weekend, and have disciplinary action or anything of this nature against you before you got your liberty card, and then you checked out to the sergeant on duty and went liberty.
Mr. JENNER. And how often were you permitted this liberty?
Mr. POWERS. As I recall, you could get it on every day.
Mr. JENNER. And what about weekends?
Mr. POWERS. And, say, weekends, and possibly once a month you had duty weekend, so 3 weekends out of the month.
Mr. JENNER. So you would have 3 out of the 4?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Per month?
Mr. POWERS. Possibly every fifth one we stood, but I think it was 3.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, three out of four you had liberty, and 1 of the weekends, the fourth one you stood on duty at camp?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald tend to take all the liberty that he could get?
Mr. POWER. I couldn't truthfully say.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What was that operation called in the Philippines, Operation Strong Back?
Mr. POWERS. I believe the second one was Strong Back, yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "second one," what do you mean by that?
Mr. POWERS. The first one they went down to--when I stayed down to play football; I don't remember what that was.
Mr. JENNER. But the one that you attended was Operation Strong Back?
Mr. POWERS. I think so; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were you boys ever sent to Formosa?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, we this was on our way home. Now, this wasn't--he was still in Japan, as I remember; he must have yes, he was still in Japan, and on our way home, we went to Formosa and no one got off the ship; we just picked up some civilians, I believe, there.
Mr. JENNER. But Oswald was not there with you?
Mr. POWERS. No. And then we just went on across----
Mr. JENNER. While you continued to have acquaintance and contact with Oswald, did his rank change from private to private first class?
Mr. POWERS. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Oswald having received discipline as a result of the court-martial involving the discharge of the .22 caliber pistol?
Mr. POWERS. I think this came after, if it did come, it probably came after I left Japan.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. POWERS. I arrived home on the 4th of July, so I must have been en route most of June.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall any punishment that was meted out to him?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Now, in connection with your remarks that he stated to you that he'd just as soon stay in Japan, do you recall, was there any scuttlebutt in the squadron that he applied for an extension of his stay in Japan?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I can't say that I recall anything because a lot of
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people did make this kind of statement, and you never again attached any significance to it.
Some individuals did extend--rather ask for an extension. Whether he did or not, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. What about Oswald's drinking habits or propensities?
Mr. POWERS. I think that he probably maybe experienced inebriation maybe possibly for his first time while he was in Japan, extensively at least; and other than that, I don't know. And a lot of the guys just went out, and that's all they went out for, to get drunk, and that was it. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. But you have no impression of Oswald in that particular connection?
Mr. POWERS. No; nothing. My actual association with him in Japan was limited to other than just seeing him in the barracks and saying, "Hi, Ozzie."
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any interest in the Russian language?
Mr. POWERS. Somewhere along the line he was reading a Russian book or Something. I'm not sure, again, whether it was written in Russian or whether it was written in the American language. It pertained to the Russian philosophy, but there is something in my mind that I relate associate, reading this type Of literature. I think it was in Japan, but I'm not sure, though.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression of him studying the Russian language as such?
Mr. POWERS. In actually sitting down and studying it; no.
Mr. JENNER. In seeking to become familiar with the language?
Mr. POWERS. I would say no; no, that I do not because I just don't have any real concrete recollections for the individual other than just brief glimpses.
Mr. JENNER. Were you still acquainted with him, still stationed with him when there arose an incident where he had an altercation with a noncommissioned officer?
Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. It seems to me I was, but again I'm not sure. It either came--I truthfully can't say, but there is something again, maybe something that I read since then, or since when all of this came out, something that I read, but there is something in my mind that he had a fight with a non-commissioned officer or something of this nature.
Mr. JENNER. That wasn't extraordinary; that would occur once in a while?
Mr. POWERS. Yes. All of a sudden a guy blows up and swings at somebody, and right away it's a fight. And if it could be blown out of proportion, too, if the noncommissioned officer wanted to take it, any time take a swing or strike a blow, it was supposed to be a serious offense in the Marines; well, is it or not, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. By this time, were you a sergeant?
Mr. POWERS. I believe I made sergeant right before I came home, or---I think it was a week or two right before I came home. I was a sergeant before I left to come home, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Still at this time Oswald continued to have the reputation that he was not an aggressive person?
Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think--I think he came out of his shell, to coin a phrase; he was becoming older and more mature, and he stood a little more for his personal rights; at least, this is an opinion that you get from the incident that he did have there in the barracks, not from close relationships with him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a recollection that in Japan he began to stand up for his own rights?
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He was a little more aggressive than he was back in the States?
Mr. POWERS. Yes. Again this might go back to the area that he was too scared the first year or so or 9 months while he was in the Marine Corps, after coming out of the initial indoctrination of coming out of training, and then he becomes himself, so you can't make a subjective appraisal during that tint 9 months.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any sympathy toward the Communist Party?
Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.
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Mr. JENNER. Toward Communist principles?
Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Or Marxist doctrines?
Mr. POWERS. None that I recall; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever discuss those subjects with you or in your presence?
Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. He didn't discuss them to any great length or to any issues that I would recall.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing to excite you?
Mr. POWERS. Nothing that I would attach any political significance to.
Mr. JENNER. And what was his attitude toward discipline in the Marine Corps? Was it antagonistic? Was it different in any degree from other marines?
Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think that it was. I think he was like any other marine, that he made his bed and now he was going to have to lie in it. He volunteered. A lot of complaining just as anyone else did. But nothing that you could say that was any different than any other individual. However, he, again going back to the incident that he did have, he was somewhat, if you want to call it, hostile, so to speak, to authority. He must have been--or he had something that would bother him that he would flare up once in a while.
Mr. JENNER. He would?
Mr. POWERS. Well----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Can you give me any incident----
Mr. POWERS. Well, just going back----
Mr. JENNER. That would express that opinion?
Mr. POWERS. Well, in Japan or something, possibly in the barracks, I recall, or like in Biloxi, he had some scuffles. I said he was coming out of his shell, and showing more aggressiveness, but I wouldn't say that this guy is a trouble-maker. I would say that the opinion of him would be that you couldn't depend on him in a situation, that you could give him the responsibility, but then you couldn't really say that he would accept it, but you could be sure with other individuals; you knew that they would accept it, but I don't think that he did this only because he wasn't sure of himself. I think if you did give him authority and he realized what the position of authority was that he would accept it and he would probably pride himself in it.
Mr. JENNER. But at least during this period of time, he hadn't reached the stage of dependability that you men of higher rank would rely on?
Mr. POWERS. Well, I wasn't in a position to delegate authority to him, but again, as I say, this is a personal opinion.
Mr. JENNER. Did---in any conversation that you had with him or any conversations in your presence which he wasn't present in, was there anything mentioned about his being in Chicago?
Mr. POWERS. No.
Mr JENNER. Or Milwaukee?
Mr. POWERS. I cannot say; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever mention somebody by the name of Ruby, Jack Ruby or Rubenstein, Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir; not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard that name associated with him.
Mr. JENNER. Even when he was in Japan, did he tend to stay to himself by and large?
Mr. POWERS. I would say yes. I think that he did. Again I couldn't be sure because he was in a different crew, and they would be on liberty at a different time.
Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall him being intoxicated?
Mr. POWERS. Not distinctly; no. It seems to me that here again it's just a picture in my mind, that he would come in the barracks feeling good, and acting silly; so whether you would associate intoxication with it----
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get into any fights while you were over in Japan?
Mr. POWERS. Oh, he probably did; probably no more than any other individual in close relationship with the people that you are there with.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about Gen. Robert E. Lee or any possible relationship that he may have had in the distant past or association by name or----
Mr. POWERS. It seems to me that there was--he was quite proud of Lee
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Harvey Oswald. There was some relationship there in the Civil War type of thing. I'm not sure what it was.
Mr. JENNER. During your period of association with him and knowledge of him, did he have a reputation of being an odd- ball of any kind?
Mr. POWERS. Well, I think the term is loosely taken.
Mr. JENNER Yes.
Mr. POWERS. Odd-ball, which is attributed to his characteristics that he did have.
Mr. JENNER. There might have been a lot of odd-balls in the Marines.
Mr. POWERS. There are a lot of odd-balls in the Marines; let's say there are a lot of odd-balls everywhere.
Mr. JENNER. But nothing occurred that would lead you to describe him as an odd-ball?
Mr. POWERS. Well, he was different. You could use it---what an odd-ball means to you and what an odd-ball means to myself and to everyone, it's different.
Mr. JENNER Well, I'm trying to go along with you; he was different.
Mr. POWERS. He was a different individual, I would say, than the normal personality that you would see in the Marine Corps because he was--which I previously stated, I think--he was a quiet--if you want to call it--a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics, that to me, he was shy, so to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him; this goes back to the Ozzie Rabbit incident.
And he was somewhat the frail, little puppy in the litter. At least, this was the opinion I think they got from him, and maybe he fell right into this image all along through the Marine Corps; maybe it just followed him. And maybe---physically, like I say, he was not an impressive specimen, at that time he wasn't, that the Marine Corps tries to portray is one of the big-type individualists, and he didn't fall into that, and consequently he was an odd-ball from the Marine Corps' own definition of what a Marine is supposed to--ideally supposed to be.
Mr. JENNER. Was he argumentatively inclined?
Mr. POWERS. Somewhat. I wouldn't say he was---he just took the opposite side of the argument, but I think that he was possibly more intelligent than most of the individuals that were in the Marine Corps--well, I wouldn't say possibly; I would say he appeared to be more intelligent than most of them.
Mr. JENNER. Are you drawing the distinction between when you say "intelligence," education and the development of intelligence?
Mr. POWERS. Let's say his capacity, and he appeared to be better developed, even not knowing what his educational background was at the time. At least, his diction and his knowledge of different subjects appeared to be more advanced than some of the other people in the group or in the groups that he was in.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think there might have been any resentment on that account?
Mr. POWERS. There may have been, I suppose, the frail--maybe he portrayed that image---frail, know-it-all, studious type of person. And, of course, some of the individuals--this is maybe why they were in the Marine Corps, to get away from the type of individual Or scholastic problems or school.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to what kind of a marksman he was?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know; he was not in my platoon. At least, I don't think he was. I don't have any conscious recollection of him there, but all marines train to shoot the rifle proficiently, and the pistol and the Browning automatic rifle.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt that he was an officer hater?
Mr. POWERS. No.
Mr. JENNER Did he evidence, as far as you recall, any impatience with people who appeared not to have the command of any particular subject that he had?
Mr. POWERS. I don't know; maybe not more so than anything else. He had the patience to teach me chess, but then again, you would sit there and pondering
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a move or something, and he, as I recall now, he would say "Come on; let's get going." And he seemed to be an individual that was---wanted to keep things moving at quite a rapid pace.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he had a tendency--maybe I asked you this--to keep by himself?
Mr. POWERS. For himself to keep by himself?
Mr. JENNER. To keep by himself.
Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I don't think I can truthfully answer that because---
Mr. JENNER. You don't think you had enough contact with him in Japan because he was not a member of your platoon?
Mr. POWERS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. In an FBI interview, did you express the opinion that he was resentful of authority? Do you still hold that view?
Mr. POWERS. He probably was not resentful to authority; he was resentful of the position of authority that he could not command, not of the authority itself, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. POWERS. It didn't make a difference who was administering--rather what the authority was, it was probably the individual administering it probably.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of Delgado?
Mr. POWERS. I can't say that I do; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thornley?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned Murphy.
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was Murphy's first name, do you recall?
Mr. POWERS. Jim Murphy. I don't think that was it either; I'm not sure.
Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of----
Mr. POWER. We used to call him Murph.
Mr. JENNER. Murray?
Mr. POWERS. No.
Mr. JENNER Osborne?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Shoemaker?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Call?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Botelho?
Mr. POWER. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That may have been pronounced Botelho. Did he spend any time listening to records, classical music, and that sort of thing?
Mr. POWERS. Not that I recall; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him or were there any discussions in your presence at the same time that he was present about religion?
Mr. POWERS. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Botelho's full name was James Anthony Botelho; Call's full name was Richard Dennis Call. You mentioned Camarata, Donald P. Camarata?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do you remember a marine by the name of Peter Cassisi?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir; I don't. If I saw the face, I could probably recall.
Mr. JENNER. A fellow by the name of Peter Francis Connor?
Mr. POWERS. Yes; I recall that name.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a commanding officer at Santa Ana by the name of John E. Donovan?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of John Heindel?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Sometimes called Hidell? This is Atsugi now.
Mr. POWERS. No.
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Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of Erwin Donald Lewis?
Mr. POWERS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I think I asked about Murray, David Christie Murray. Murphy's name was Paul, Paul Edward Murphy.
Mr. POWERS. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You remember him in the Far East?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, he was in the same crew that I was in.
Mr. JENNER. Osborne's first name was Mac, M-a-c.
Well, that completes my examination. And any further reflections which I will ask you to do as you sit there now, can you think of anything that you think might be pertinent here to the Commission in its overall investigation, calling on your experiences during the period that you had contact with Oswald?
Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think there is really anything that I can add. I think that the problem is that there are hundreds of kids running around like him today that can be easily influenced.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, in the taking of these depositions, and you find in most regulations and rules that we adopted, you have the right to read your deposition over and make any corrections in it if you wish, and to sign it. You may waive that, if you wish also.
Mr. POWERS. I waive it; there is no reason why----
Mr, JENNER. As far as you're concerned----
Mr. POWERS. As far as I'm concerned.
Mr. JENNER. You rely on the accuracy of the reporter?
Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.