TESTIMONY OF WARREN E. RICHEY

The testimony of Warren E. Richey was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 15, 1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Richey, I have to read some formalities here. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Richey.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Richey, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and particularly whether a man known as Jack Ruby was seen by you near the Dallas Police Department on November 24, 1963.
Now, Mr. Richey, I think you have appeared here by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, for the President's Commission. Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago?
Mr. RICHEY. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, would you please be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RICHEY. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name.
Mr. RICHEY. Warren E. Richey.
Mr. HUBERT. And your age?
Mr. RICHEY. 40.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

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Mr. RICHEY. 1600 Grantland Circle.
Mr. HUBERT. Fort Worth?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. RICHEY. TV engineer.
Mr. HUBERT. What station?
Mr. RICHEY. WBAP-TV.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. RICHEY. Thirteen years.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the function in general of a TV engineer?
Mr. RICHEY. Well, it is all phases of operation of TV equipment.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty with the remote truck of WBAP-TV in Dallas on November 23 and 24?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the truck parked?
Mr. RICHEY. It was parked on Commerce Street facing east.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, facing what street? Pearl or North Express?
Mr. RICHEY. I don't know really. It was on the left-hand side of the street facing east, right in front of the city hall, or whatever it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where Harwood Street is?
Mr. RICHEY. Harwood? No, sir; I am not very familiar with the streets.
Mr. HUBERT. How far away from the corner was the back of your truck?
Mr. RICHEY. Oh, I would say 40 or 50 feet, approximately. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. How much room was there between the front of the truck and the street curbing forming part of the entrance or exit from the police department into Commerce Street?
Mr. RICHEY. Oh, 15 or 20 feet, I imagine. It wasn't too far.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the 23d of November? That is to say, Saturday, November 23, 1963?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the position of the truck that you have just described different on the 24th than that which you have described?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; it was moved in and left.
Mr. HUBERT. Stayed there both days?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What hours were you on duty on the 23d? That is to say, Saturday?
Mr. RICHEY. I don't remember exactly what time we got over there. I think we had a 6 o'clock call from here, from Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. Six in the morning?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes. And I think we would have pictures by 8 o'clock, so I would say we were there somewhere around 6:30, I imagine.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. RICHEY. It was till late that night. I am not sure of the time. I believe it was around 8 or 9 o'clock, that night, but I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. When you went home, you left the equipment where it was?
Mr. RICHEY. That was on Saturday; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go back to work on Sunday, the 24th?
Mr. RICHEY. Sunday, I think I'm mixed up here. Sunday was the morning we had a 6 o'clock call. Saturday morning is the day we moved in early. We had a 1 o'clock call.
Mr. HUBERT. One o'clock?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So you worked from 1 in the morning until about 8 Saturday night?
Mr. RICHEY. It was rather not that Saturday night. We got back about 6:30 on Sunday morning. Saturday night is the night we stayed late.
Mr. HUBERT. Now prior to the 23d, or the 24th, did you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?
Mr. RICHEY. No; I never heard of him.
Mr. HUBERT. Never seen him before?
Mr. RICHEY. Never heard of him.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby or a man that you have now come to believe was Jack Ruby or know was Jack Ruby on the 23d or the 24th?
Mr. RICHEY. Not on the 23d, but on the 24th, that would be Sunday, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now would you tell us about that.
Mr. RICHEY. Well, the man that I think was him and I am positive, pretty sure in my own mind it was, he was just out on the street alongside the truck in front of the building, the city court building.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the street in the sense that the place where the automobiles were, or on the sidewalk alongside the building? On the left side of the truck then?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Between the left side of the truck and the building?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you?
Mr. RICHEY. I was on top of the truck with a camera.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened.
Mr. RICHEY. Well, the time that I saw him was, I would say, in the neighborhood of 8 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any way you fix the time?
Mr. RICHEY. Not definitely, because we were busy lining up cameras, and I didn't really pay much attention to the time, but I would say it was somewhere in that neighborhood.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened between the two of you?
Mr. RICHEY. Nothing, as far as I was concerned. I just saw him out there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I never did hear him say anything, because it was cold and I had a coat pulled up over my ears.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?
Mr. RICHEY. He had on a sort of grayish topcoat and sort of a gray-looking hat, and he didn't look like, you know, he didn't look very neatly dressed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a tie on?
Mr. RICHEY. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an overcoat?
Mr. RICHEY. Topcoat; overcoat.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that was about 8 o'clock, in the morning?
Mr. RICHEY. The first time I saw him was somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 o'clock. I am not positive.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long he stood around there?
Mr. RICHEY. Well, I saw him again sometime, I would say, around 10 or a little before 10, and he was down past the ramp this time that goes into the building--basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean he was down past in the sense that he had progressed ahead of the front of your truck?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; he was down.
Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street entrance was between your truck and him?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that drew your attention to him then?
Mr. RICHEY. No; not really.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he dressed in the same way?
Mr. RICHEY. At this time he was still dressed the same way. That was the last time I saw him.
Mr. HUBERT. Those two occasions were roughly separated by about 2 hours, you think?
Mr. RICHEY. Somewhere around there; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know it was Jack Ruby?
Mr. RICHEY. No; I had no idea. I just thought he was a newsman, because there were several out there walking around, and they moved the people across the street, and he was one of the few that was left.
This person was one of the few that was left out there, and that is one reason I thought he was a newsman, because they weren't bothering the newsmen.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him talk to any of the police that were stationed along there?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I didn't see him talk to anyone.
Mr. HUBERT. You said that the second time was about 10 o'clock?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any way in which you fix that time?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not really. Well, it was about the time that we thought they were to bring Oswald out. I think they told us it would be about 10 o'clock. It was in that time period that we were sort of looking for them to bring him out.
Mr. HUBERT. Judging from the time that Oswald was actually shot or measuring from that time backward, could you tell us how long it was from the time Oswald was shot, backward until you saw Ruby; or to put it another way, how much time elapsed from the last time you saw Ruby until Oswald was shot?
Mr. RICHEY. It was an hour or better.
Mr. HUBERT. Now can you tell us when was the very first time you associated that man that you have just described as having seen at 8 o'clock and again at 10, or a little better, with Jack Ruby?
Mr. RICHEY. It was that night when I saw the rerun of the tape that was made. And when I saw him, it looked like the same man that was dressed differently, to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Now did the reruns show his face?
Mr. RICHEY. Not too good.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any mug shots?
Mr. RICHEY. I saw still shots.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you see those?
Mr. RICHEY. The next day, I believe; whenever the papers came out. It was the pictures in the Dallas Herald, I believe, the big full-page picture.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ira N. Walker?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he on duty on the same truck with you that day?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think Mr.----
Mr. RICHEY. Johnny Smith.
Mr. HUBERT. Johnny Smith was too?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall being in the company of them and seeing mug shots relatively shortly after the shooting of Oswald on TV?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I didn't see those. They were in the truck where they could see the pictures, but I was out on top of the truck.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that they had seen the Ruby mug shots and had associated them with the man that they had seen?
Mr. RICHEY. I don't know. I don't believe.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you saw the rerun, you independently reached the opinion that it was Jack Ruby?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not suggested to you by the fact that Walker and Smith had seen mug shots right after the shooting?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know that they had seen the shots?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now have you seen Jack Ruby since?
Mr. RICHEY. Not in person; no, sir. I have seen pictures, newsreels, but I haven't seen him actually.
Mr. HUBERT. You have seen pictures of him in the newspapers?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Newsreel films?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion now as to whether or not the man that you have described that you saw twice on November 24, at about 8 and then again about 10 on Commerce Street is or is not the man that you now know from having seen pictures and so forth, as Jack Ruby?

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Mr. RICHEY. I still believe that it is the same man.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not asked by the State to testify in the case?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; they came and talked to Johnny and Walker and myself but they never did call me.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion as to your identification of the man on the street and Jack Ruby as being the same man relative to your identification of him on the reruns as opposed to your identification of him from the still photos and other pictures that you have seen of him thereafter?
What I am trying to get at is, which one of the subsequent views you had of Jack Ruby is stronger in your mind with reference to identifying the man that you saw in the street?
Mr. RICHEY. The still pictures, except for the difference in clothes. The clothes in the still pictures look different from the ones that this person had on that I saw, but I would say the still pictures looked more like him.
Mr. HUBERT. Nevertheless, it is a fact, that when you saw the reruns on the night of the 24th, at that time you had an impression that it was the same man?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a spontaneous thing?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes; when I saw it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say anything to anybody?
Mr. RICHEY. My wife, I believe, because we were watching the news.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't report it?
Mr. RICHEY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Richey, I have in hand here a document which purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Haley and Madland on December 4, 1963, which I have marked for identification as follows: "Fort Worth, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5316, deposition of Warren E. Richey," and I have signed my name on it.
I would like you to read the statement first, sir.
Mr. RICHEY. [Reads statement.]
Mr. HUBERT. Now, sir, you have read this document that I have identified as Exhibit 5316, and I will ask you if it substantially represents the truth as to the interview between you and the Federal agents, or if you have any deletions, corrections, or any amendments to make about it?
Mr. RICHEY. I would say it was all approximately right.
Mr. HUBERT. I invite your attention to the fact that this Exhibit 5316, states that the time----
Mr. RICHEY. The time is different on there, but I tell you there has been a lot happened since then that I couldn't be too exact on the time, really, because this was just, I don't know, wasn't too long after this all happened.
Mr. HUBERT. For example, this statement mentions that you saw him about 9 o'clock and apparently doesn't cover what you testified to. That is to say, that you really saw him twice?
Mr. RICHEY. Well, I actually didn't see him twice. This was a period of time really from approximately 8 or somewhere in there up until about 10 o'clock. He wasn't there early. That wasn't what I meant.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's get that straight. You saw him only once; is that correct? Or twice?
Mr. RICHEY. Well, I saw him--I don't know how to put it. It was a period of time I saw him, between this time, probably several times walked down the sidewalk.
Mr. HUBERT. He walked actually between the truck and the sidewalk side of the building?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then at one time you have a mental impression of having seen him beyond the Commerce Street ramp?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; from the corner. I don't even remember what street. It runs in front of the court building back of the truck. But he was within that area from that street up beyond the ramp. But this last time I saw him was at the ramp. But he was in between there several times that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Between 8?

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Mr. RICHEY. And 10 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. But you think that the very last time that you saw him----
Mr. RICHEY. Was around 10 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. What fixes 10 in your mind?
Mr. RICHEY. Like I say, it was about the time they were expecting them to bring Oswald down in the building. That was when the chief of police told us they would be bringing him out, and we were looking for him, because I was up there on a camera, with a camera on the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you gotten any kind of alert standby?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir. There was no alert of any kind. It was just the time that they had given us the night before, actually.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, you say that your recollection is that the last time you saw him, which was when you saw him beyond the Commerce Street ramp, was approximately an hour or a little better from the actual shooting?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the last time you remember seeing him?
Mr. RICHEY. That was the end of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem at that time to be walking away from your truck?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; he was standing.
Mr. HUBERT. He was just standing?
Mr. RICHEY. He was standing.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any police near him?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not near him. They had one policeman out on the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. But when you saw him, it was after all the crowd had been moved over?
Mr. RICHEY. They were across the street.
Mr. HUBERT. From the side of the street where your truck was, to the opposite side of Commerce Street?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there many ether people like this man walking around in that area?
Mr. RICHEY. There was just occasionally newsmen, because they were congregating in the basement and they would come by.
Mr. HUBERT. But this man whom you have identified as Jack Ruby; did he have any kind of paper or press badge which you observed in the nature of a press badge?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not that I saw, because there was a lot of newsmen that didn't have passes. Some of our crew didn't even have passes, WBAP.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when the armored truck pulled in there?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after the last time you saw the man you have identified as Jack Ruby?
Mr. RICHEY. I believe that was the--I believe the armored truck pulled in after I saw him the last time, because there was one pulled in and backed in, and the other one parked on the street.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that the last time you saw Ruby was before?
Mr. RICHEY. Before any of that happened?
Mr. HUBERT. Before any of that happened.
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; Mr. Richey, have you been interviewed by any member of the President's Commission prior to this occasion?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say in any way?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I don't know of anything.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you really didn't hear Ruby say anything?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that this statement which has been identified as 5316--let me ask you: You were interviewed by the FBI?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; that was 2 or 3 days, I believe, after.
Mr. HUBERT. You were interviewed at the same time as Mr. Walker and Mr. Smith?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes; and there were some others.

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Mr. HUBERT. Was that an individual interview?
Mr. RICHEY. Not in our case. We were all together in the studio of WBAP.
Mr. HUBERT. You weren't taken aside separately and individually?
Mr. RICHEY. Not when the FBI talked to us.
Mr. HUBERT. Each of you gave your story and the FBI agents made notes?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever ask you to check the notes or any draft?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I have never heard or seen them since.
Mr. HUBERT. You were on duty with the truck during the day of Saturday, November 23?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible that the man you saw and identified as Jack Ruby would have been seen by you on the 23d rather than the 24th?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I don't recall seeing anyone that even looked like him on the 23d. That one morning is the only morning that I recall seeing anyone that even looked like him.
Mr. HUBERT. On the 24th, I think you testified the crowd had been moved over on the other side of the street?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had that been done on the 23d?
Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; no one bothered. There weren't too many around on the 23d. Mostly newsmen was all that was around on the 23d. There wasn't any crowd, really, but they started congregating on Sunday morning on both sides of the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. It was after they had begun to congregate that you saw this man you have identified as Jack Ruby?
Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; and then they moved the other people across, and I still saw him after they moved the other people across the street.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you very much.