Evaristo Rodriguez, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified, through the interpreter, Mr. Logan, as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
You are entitled under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney present during your questioning. You are not required to answer questions that you think might be harmful to yourself to answer. You may state the reasons why you don't want to answer them if you wish to do that. You are entitled to 3-days' notice under the rules. I assume you are prepared to proceed with the testimony at this time since you are here, and I assume that since you do not have an attorney, you are prepared to go ahead without one.
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am ready to answer all the questions. I. have been advised of my rights as you have stated them to me, and I am ready to answer any questions that I can help you with.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Evaristo?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. [writing]. Gibara, Oriente, Cuba. That's the province, Oriente, and the city is Gibara.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. July 26, 1941.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live now?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. 1239 Chartres Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still a citizen of Cuba?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived in the United States?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I came here in 1962 on a boat. I was first here in 1962. I was on a boat. And I went to Costa Rica and a few other countries. I came back here in January of 1963. I have been here since January of 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Cuba?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. December of 1961.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to leave Cuba?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I left Cuba because they were about to put me in the Armed Forces. I didn't care to. I wasn't in agreement with the present government, so I took off.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you get out?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. On a boat. I came out on a small boat, a small merchant ship.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work on that boat then or where did you go?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I had been working on this boat for about 3 years and 2 months.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the boat that sunk?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. It's not the same boat that sunk, but it was a boat of the same company, Barcelona Co., that sunk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Eventually, one of your boats did sink and you came then here to New Orleans, is that correct, and that's when you stayed in the United States?
(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. First of all, I was on this boat called the Barcelona in the Pacific, and this boat sunk, and we were transferred to another boat, the Jose, that first traveled to some other countries, and then when I got to New Orleans, this is where I asked for my political asylum.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am a bartender at nights at the Habana Bar at 117 Decatur Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked there?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. About 1 year and 3 months. I have worked there about 1 year and 3 months.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Orest Pena?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ruperto Pena?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. [answering directly]. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Carlos Bringuier?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. [answering directly]. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have information that you saw a man whom you believe to be Lee Harvey Oswald in the bar some time in 1963. Would you tell us all about that?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. These men came into the bar, two men came into the bar, one of them which I learned later through TV and pictures and newspapers was Oswald. These men came into the bar. One of them .spoke Spanish and the one who spoke Spanish ordered the tequila, so I told him that the price of the tequila was 50 cents. I brought him the tequila and a little water. The man protested at the price, thought it was too high, and he made some statement to the effect that he was a Cuban, but an American citizen and that surely--words to the effect that surely the owner of this bar must be a capitalist, and we had a little debate about the price, but that passed over. Then the man who I later learned was Oswald ordered a lemonade. Now I didn't know what to give him because we don't have lemonades in the bar. So I asked Orest Pena how I should fix a lemonade. Orest told me to take a little of this lemon flavoring, squirt in some water, and charge him 25 cents for the lemonade, and that's the incident surrounding that situation.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not know the names of these men at that time, did you?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't know the names of them then; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did both of the men speak Spanish or just one of them?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Only the man that appeared to be a Latin or Cuban spoke Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. So the man who you later thought to be Oswald did not speak Spanish; is that right?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No; the man I later learned to be Oswald did not speak Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. What time of the day did this happen?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. This happened about 2:30 or between 2:30 and 3 o'clock in the morning. I am not certain of the exact hour, but that's the best of my recollection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were either of these men drunk?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man I later learned to be Oswald had his arm around the Latin-appearing man, and Oswald appeared to be somewhat drunk.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that someone was a Cuban but an American citizen. Were you referring to the man that was with Oswald, or Orest Pena, the owner of the bar?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. What I did was, the Latin-appearing man asked me if the owner of the bar was a Cuban, and I told him that he was a Cuban, but an American citizen. That's the way that was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to say the nationality of the man that was with Oswald?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am not able to state what his exact nationality was, but he appeared to be a Latin, and that's about as far as I can go. He could have been a Mexican; he could have been a Cuban, but at this point, I don't recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did this man look like?
Mr. LOGAN.You want a description of him?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; how old?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He was a man about 28 years old, very hairy arms, dark hair on his arms.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how tall was he?
Mr. LOGAN.He says he was about my height. That's about 5 feet 8. He is about the same build of man as I am, short and rather stocky, wide. He was a stocky man with broad shoulders, about 5 feet 8 inches.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how much he weighed approximately?
Mr. LOGAN.He probably hit around 155. He doesn't remember the exact weight, but he would guess around the same weight as I appear to be.
Mr. LIEBELER. So he weighed about 155 pounds or so?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he taller or shorter than Oswald?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Just a little taller than Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he heavier than Oswald or lighter?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He was huskier and appeared to weigh more than Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what color his hair was?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He had a high forehead. you might say. He had this back here, the hairline was right back in here like this [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. He had a receding hairline in the front?
Mr. LOGAN.He says it's not like yours and mine; it's rather receding on the sides toward--at the front.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Now how tall would you estimate Oswald was?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't get a good look of Oswald standing up straight because Oswald was drunk and he was more or less in a sagging position most of the time. Therefore, I-wasn't able to get a good look, but he was a little shorter than 5 feet 8, the height of the other man. He was a little shorter than that, maybe 5 feet 7 or 5 feet 6, but I couldn't tell for sure because Oswald wasn't standing up too' straight at the time. In fact, Oswald came in and draped over the table after he sat down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald become sick?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He became sick on the table and on the floor.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then did he go in the street and continue being sick?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The Latin-appearing man helped him to the street where he continued to be sick.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was Oswald wearing?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Oswald as I recall, had on a dark pair of pants and a short-sleeved white shirt.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie on?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Oswald had what appeared to be a small bow tie.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. But the thing is, Oswald's collar was open and this thing was hanging from one side of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was a clip-on bow tie?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. It was a clip-on thing as I recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did this happen; what month?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I can't remember exactly, but I know it was just about 1 year ago, and I presume it was in August.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Orest Pena went to Puerto Rico?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember when Orest went to Puerto Rico. I don't recall when Orest went to Puerto Rico.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald in the bar before Orest went to Puerto Rico or afterward or while he was gone? Do you remember specifically? Do you remember that he did go to Puerto Rico?
(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest just said he was going on vacation and didn't tell me where he was going.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when he went on vacation? Think of it in comparison to the time that Oswald was in the bar. Was Oswald in the bar before Orest went on vacation or afterward or while he was on vacation.
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was there.
Mr. LIEBELER. So he couldn't have been on vacation at the time?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was because at that time, I recall I had to ask Orest how to make the lemonade for Oswald, so--
Mr. LIEBELER. Now .think again, and think if this was before Orest went on vacation or afterward.
Mr. LOGAN.The incident, you mean, in the bar?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember whether it was before or after.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Carlos Bringuier was arrested and went to jail?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I remember him being arrested, but I don't remember--I remember when Carlos Bringuier was arrested, but--I was on the street and I saw Carlos. I saw Carlos Bringuier talking to the policeman at the time that he was arrested, but I didn't see him get into the police car because I took off. I left because I thought I might be following the same path.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you walking when you saw Carlos arrested?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I Was in a car passing in the street when I saw Carlos talking with the police.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with you in the car?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest Pena had driven me to the doctor, and this is how we happened to be in the car together when we passed going to the Habana Bar when we saw Carlos.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest see Bringuier that day?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't know whether Orest saw him or not. Orest was doing the driving. I am not sure whether he saw him or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald in the bar before or after you saw Carlos in the street with the policeman?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am not sure, but it was either a couple of days before Oswald was in the bar or a couple of days after, but I can't remember well enough to be exact.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it was about that time that you saw Oswald in the bar; is that right?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes; it was about the same time, same time in relation to days, you know, that same period.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Do you remember whether you and Orest saw Carlos in the street before Orest went on vacation or afterward?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember whether it was before Orest went on vacation or after that I saw Carlos in the street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was there? That's right, is it not?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. He was in the bar when Oswald was there.
Mr. LOGAN.He says he is trying to remember the best he can.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is doing very well.
Mr. LOGAN.He is saying that the time passes and it is hard for him to remember everything, but he is trying to remember the best he can.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest see Oswald?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't see, I don't believe, that Orest saw Oswald. Orest was in the back part of the bar near the telephone, and Oswald and his friend were sitting at a table near the cigarette machine, which is in the right-hand side of the front part of the bar, and Oswald's back was to the place where Orest was at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest come up and talk to .them when you had this argument about the lemonade and tequila?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No; Orest never talked to Oswald or the other man during this altercation about the tequila.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your knowledge, Orest never came up or looked at them or saw them while they were there?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. To the best of my recollection, Orest Pena never saw these two men up close, and, as a matter of fact, Orest was talking on the telephone, and when I asked him about the lemonade, he just told me what to do and didn't pay any more attention to it than that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody else with Carlos and the policeman at the time you saw Carlos on the street with ,the policeman as you have already told us?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. At the time I saw Carlos Bringuier on .the street with the police, I didn't see anybody being put into the police car, but I remember slightly that there were probably three other people in the police car at the time, but I don't know who they were, and I was passing in a car, of course, and didn't have an opportunity to pay any attention to that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see Oswald there?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't see Oswald at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Celso Hernandez?
Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't know him. I am acquainted with Bringuier.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first think that the man you saw in the bar, as you have told us, was Oswald?
Mr. LOGAN.I am going to have to break this down for him.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say so far?
Mr. LOGAN.He is answering an entirely different question, something about Bringuier.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think we should put this on the record.
Mr. LOGAN.Let ,he find out if he understood the question first because the thing is, I think he has got something else in mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is the problem.
Mr. LOGAN.I will get that out of him, too, the part you want.
(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)