The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 5:25 p.m., on March ?5, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you please rise, I will swear you as a witness.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. The Commission has adopted rules of procedure in conformance with the Executive order and the Joint resolution. I understand that Mr. Rankin. the general counsel to the Commission, wrote you a letter last week and told you that I would contact you to take your testimony this week. He sent with that letter, I understand, a copy of that Executive order and joint resolution together with a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony of witnesses. You received that letter?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And copies of the papers I referred to?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Today we want to examine you briefly concerning the possibility that you did some work on a rifle for a man by the name of Oswald who may in fact have been Lee Harvey Oswald. Before we get into that, we would like to have you state your full name for the court reporter.
Mr. RYDER. Dial Duwayne [spelling] R-y-d-e-r.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. RYDER. 2028 Harvard.
Mr. LIEBELER. What city?
Mr. RYDER. Irving, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed, Mr. Ryder?
Mr. RYDER. Irving Sports Shop.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?
Mr. RYDER. 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of place is the Irving Sports Shop?
Mr. RYDER. Well, it's a retail sporting goods store.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do in your work there?
Mr. RYDER. Actually, my capacity is, I guess you could refer to it as service manager. I do all the service work, gun work, outboard motor work, rig boats. I guess you say general flunkie or service man you refer to it as.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you?
Mr. RYDER. Twenty-five.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in Texas?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I was born in Claremont, Ill.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Texas?
Mr. RYDER. 1945.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1945?
Mr. RYDER Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to school?


Mr. RYDER. Irving High School; actually, I went all the way through the Irving public school system.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you graduated from the Irving Public High School?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you graduate from high school?
Mr. RYDER. 1957.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been working for the Irving Sports Shop?
Mr. RYDER. Five years be close enough; it's a little less than 5, but 5 covers it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have children?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been married?
Mr. RYDER. Five years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been in the military service?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What branch were you in?
Mr. RYDER. Went in the National Guard. 49th Armored Division which I am still an active member.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of the National Guard?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you serve on active duty with the U.S. Army?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. For 2 years?
Mr. RYDER. No; actually it was, let's see, I guess you say it was 15 months. 16, something like that. In other words, while I was on 6 months training, they activated the 49th Armored Division and I was called in to stay 9 extra months on active duty.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed while on active duty?
Mr. RYDER. Fort Leonard Wood, Fort Knox for advanced individual training, and Fort Polk, La., with the 49th.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of training did you receive?
Mr. RYDER. Armored tank training.
Mr. LIEBELER. You served as a tanker at Fort Polk?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank in the National Guard?
Mr. RYDER. Now?
Mr. RYDER. Sergeant.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was it at the time you went into active duty?
Mr. RYDER. It was June 11 in 1960 when I reported to Fort Leonard Wood.
Mr. LIEBELER. June what? What was your rank when you went on active duty?
Mr. RYDER. I was just an E-2.
Mr. RYDER. Yes; or private beginner--actually, I had 3 months actually, National Guard work which waives your time for E-2, three months' period. Of course, there isn't much difference in pay rate.
Mr. LIEBELER. It appears that there was a newspaper story that appeared in the Dallas Times Herald on November 28, 1963, and apparently a version of that story was carried in the New York Times on November 29, 1963, which mentions you. Do you recall being interviewed by a reporter from a Dallas newspaper?
Mr. RYDER. After the story was out; yes--before, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean by that?
Mr. RYDER. Well, the deal is the story came out on Thanksgiving and early that morning the telephone rang- I would say roughly 7:30 or 8, something like that--and I answered the phone and a guy introduced himself and I told him I didn't have any comment and hung up.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was a newspaperman?
Mr. RYDER. To tell you the truth, I didn't pay that much attention. I was half asleep because it was a day off. I was going to get some of that extra dozing time, you know, and I just told him I didn't have any comment and hung the


phone up and took it off the hook and later on that day, CBS television came out and they were wanting a blownup deal on it to put on television when they found it was opposite which came out in the Times Herald.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you were not interviewed as far as you can remember by a newspaper reporter prior to the time the story came out in the Times Herald?
Mr. RYDER. Not as far as I know. I was interviewed by the FBI and Dallas Police Department and I believe a couple Secret Service men came out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of those interviewed you first?
Mr. RYDER. The FBI was the first one out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what the date was when the FBI first interviewed you?
Mr. RYDER. It was on Monday, the day of the funeral of President Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 25. Friday was the 22d, Saturday would be the 23d, Sunday the 24th, Monday the 25th. Do you remember the name of the FBI man?
Mr. RYDER. Mr. Horton.
Mr. LIEBELER. Horton [spelling] E-m-o-r-y E. H-o-r-t-o-n?
Mr. RYDER. I didn't get his first name. His last name stuck with me well, I don't know why; it just stayed there.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Horton say to you and what did you say to him, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. RYDER. Of course, we were closed on that Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Irving Sports Shop was closed?
Mr. RYDER. Right, and he came to the house, so, at that time he showed me pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald and pictures of the gun and asked me about it. I said "Well, the face and the body features of Oswald there was real common in this country." I mean, you know, in this area in Texas and that to say that I had him in the shop, actually, this was after a period of time that we boiled it down to. Oh, I told him I had a ticket with the name Oswald, no date, no address, just for drilling and tapping and boresighting--no address, or name: he didn't say he'd like to see the ticket and was looking at the pictures, then I seen the gun. Of course, from the picture I told him as far as I could remember I told him I hadn't mounted that scope, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You based that statement that you had not mounted the scope on your recollection that you had not worked on that particular kind of rifle, is that correct?
Mr. RYDER. Right, on this Italian rifle I never worked on them. I seen them but as far as doing any physical work, I haven't done none even to this date, I haven't worked on any of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure about that?
Mr. RYDER. I am positive on that, very positive. So, we went up to the Irving Sports Shop and I opened it up and got the ticket and showed him. It was just a little repair ticket actually what it amounted to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it have a number on it?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir; I don't remember the number.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give the tag to Mr. Horton?
Mr. RYDER. No; he told us to hold on to it, keep it and they would probably get it later on and they did. It seems to me like it was 2 or 3 weeks ago they came and got it now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just 2 or 3 weeks ago?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who came and got it?
Mr. RYDER. I don't know; the boss, Mr. Greener, gave it to him. It was on Saturday, I believe it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did that tag indicate the nature of the work that was to be done?
Mr. RYDER. Well, actually, all it had on it was drill and tapping; it said drill and tap and a price of $4.50, I believe it was and boresight, of course, no charge on that, so by us charging $1.50 a hole that's what we normally charge for drillin' and tappin'--would on this particular thing, would have been three holes drill and tap, where in the picture of the gun there was only two screws


holding the mount of the scope on which is, more or less, made it positive we hadn't mounted it on the gun, so Mr. Horton, so he took it for granted that I hadn't done the work on it and I am sure I haven't because--
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of gun was it?
Mr. RYDER. It was a 6.5 Italian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the make?
Mr. RYDER. Like I say, I have seen several of them but as far as who made the gun, I don't know; probably some Italian gun manufacturer but as far as who it was, I don't know. I can't read Italian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell from looking at the ticket when this work was done? First of all, the tag was not dated?
Mr. RYDER. The tag was not dated.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you make any estimate of the time by looking at this ticket as to when the work was done?
Mr. RYDER. Well, it was done sometime between the 1st and 15th of November.
Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that?
Mr. RYDER. Because the work was done while the Greeners or the Woody Francis Greeners, the owners of the sport shop were on vacation.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know?
Mr. RYDER. They were gone that 2 weeks.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know it was done while they were gone?
Mr. RYDER. Actually, I can't really say too definitely sure but I am quite sure it was because he doesn't remember seeing the gun in the shop while he was there. In other words, before they left, and of course, it was gone when they came back.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "the gun," what do you mean?
Mr. RYDER. The one I worked on--in other words, he keeps a pretty good watch on my work to make sure I'm getting it out on time and he will check fairly close every day, every other day, and check to make sure I'm getting the work out, that old work isn't laying there to be done. He's pretty sharp on remembering names and he would have remembered that quite surely if--
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have much work of this type?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir; at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did have quite a lot of work at this time mounting telescopic sights?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; when they left, that's 2 weeks prior to the opening of the deer season here and I guess that 2 weeks I mounted 35, 40, maybe 50 scopes in that week as well as run the business while they was gone which is quite a headache in itself. That's just prior to hunting season, you see. Just like I told everybody all along, I couldn't say specifically if it was by seeing pictures if it was him or another Oswald. In other words, I don't put that close relation to a man's face to a particular item of work.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did the deer season open--the 14th or 15th of November?
Mr. RYDER. The 15th, I believe it was this year.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say you mounted perhaps as many as 50 scopes in the 2 weeks preceding that day?
Mr. RYDER. Very possibly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the last 2 weeks in October. Did you have a similar number of scopes to mount during that time?
Mr. RYDER. Not quite that many. Lot of these guys like to get their scopes mounted just before they leave. For instance, buying these license plates and getting your car inspected works the same way. They wait until the last minute before they really get ready to go.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of about how many scopes you might have mounted during the last 2 weeks in October?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I sure wouldn't say specific to remember, sure wouldn't be sure about the number.
Mr. LIEBELER. It would not have been as many as you did the first 2 weeks in November but would it have been more than 10?
Mr. RYDER. Oh, yeah; I'm quite sure. I say roughly 25 scopes. Of course, a lot of these people that buy their scopes wholesale or buy a cheap scope that we don't handle, we handle the better priced and better scopes and they buy


these things and mounts and everything somewhere else and have us mount them.
Mr. LIEBELER The thing I am working toward here is trying to fix the date, on which this ticket with the name Oswald On it--when the work was done.
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you mounted, say, 25 scopes or approximately that many during the last 2 weeks of October, isn't it possible that the Oswald scope could have been mounted during that period of time and your boss would not have remembered the name Oswald as being connected with one of those rifles?
Mr. RYDER. Could have, but like I say, he's pretty sharp. He's pretty smart; I mean in keeping up with the business, you know what I mean. In other words, the flow of the work that I had; in other words, he keeps a close watch on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you stated that the repair tag had a number on it. Are these repair tags taken off a book with tags with consecutive numbers on them?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do these numbers come from?
Mr. RYDER. We buy repair tags, of course, they have a main base of the tag, just a tag you can tear off and you can tear off--say I have number 41626 of the other piece; in other words, have the right tag on the gun. As far as sequence, we don't use any. We have a box and we reach over, get a tag, put a man's name on it. The same tag is used on reels, rods, outboard motors, boats.
Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no possible way in which you could fix the date by observing the sequence of the number on the tag?
Mr. RYDER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you limit it to a period of 2 weeks?
Mr. RYDER. Like I say, it would be from the let to around the 14th or 15th of November while the Greeners was away.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said before you were quite sure you never worked on a--
Mr. RYDER. The Italian gun.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Italian rifle. Do you have any recollection of the kind of rifle that this Oswald tag referred to?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't. That's another-place where we did--in other words, I did so many and I was so rushed that I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to what tag was to have such and such a scope put on. That is where actually our fall-down went on the thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is no indication on the tag as to what kind of rifle it would be?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you helped at all by the fact that the tag indicates that three holes were drilled? Do you ordinarily drill three holes on all rifles?
Mr. RYDER. We boiled it down to this: That there are two type bases used that have three. The Redfield base and the Buehler base and then, actually, these could go on any gun that you want. In other words, if a man bought a Redfield or Buehler base they can be adapted to any gun with three holes. Now any imported, we couldn't say definitely if it was imported because the Springfield O3A3 requires three holes; the British 303 requires three holes. These are guns they use and that's the only ones we could think of offhand that would require just three holes, so we boiled it down, it was either Buehler, Redfield base or with the Weaver base being on the Springfield O3A3.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or the 303 British rifle?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say you boiled this down in your conversation with Horton from the FBI?
Mr. RYDER. Actually, this was amongst ourselves, I and Mr. Greener. Actually, there was a lady from the Washington press, of course, I don't know, I forgotten which paper she worked with but she was with the Washington press and we discussed this with her quite thoroughly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her name?
Mr. RYDER. I sure don't. She, in turn, called Klein's and found out the rifle that was used in the assassination had already been drilled and tapped. In


other words, he had bought the scope and rifle from Klein's and they were shipped together and all he had to do was attach it to this particular gun. In other words, the one he used in the assassination. Of course, they order by serial number.
Mr. LIEBELER. You also testified you did not mount any scope on an Italian rifle?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say, that when you mount a scope you do not charge for the process of boresighting, is that correct?
Mr. RYDER. Actually, it's hard to say, really. At that time we were not charging if we drilled and tapped one, we didn't do it. Now we do charge extra, $1.50 bore sighting.
Mr. LIEBELER Do you recall if there was an extra $1.50 for boresighting indicated on the ticket in question?
Mr. RYDER. I don't even remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing that point with Agent Horton?
Mr. RYDER. Yeah; we talked maybe we did charge $1.50 for the boresighting. As a matter of fact, I did because $6--or was it $4.50--I don't even remember that now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't now remember whether the ticket was for $4.50 or $6?
Mr. RYDER. That's right, right now, I don't. It seems like to me it was for $4.50 for drill, tapping, and bore sighting. I believe it was for $4.50. In other words, I didn't charge for bore sighting.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do when you bore sight a rifle?
Mr. RYDER. Well, I use a sight-a-line. That's actually three different things but what it is, it's an optic deal made by this manufacturing company that has a little cross hair in it just like a scope. It lays like such instead of like such [illustrating]. By taking a little sprig that fits different caliber rifles, fits in the rifle, you look through the scope and line the four cross hairs together to the center point of the cross hairs. It doesn't zero a gun by any means. It just gets you---oh, better where you can tell where you're hitting.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you can't really zero a gun any by just boresighting it?
Mr. RYDER. No; actually, it lines your bore and your sight at one point or close to one point where you can get your point from there without wasting ammunition. If I were to anchor a barrel or piece of pipe in a vise and pick out a spot over there on that building [indicating] somewhere; say, draw a circle and I line this with that and aline the sight, I have a scope or open sight either one, over to that point, I go to shoot at it offhand and there's a different way I hold that gun. This breaks it down to a fine deal where you understand the difference between boresighting and zero. If you been in the army, you know the difference. In other words, this method I was just describing say, to the building, is the way we use the bore sight.
Mr. LIEBELER. But now you have a little machine that does that?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; we have this little optical instrument we use now which makes it simple and faster.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever worked with any rifles that came from Klein's in Chicago or mail-order rifles that came with scopes mounted on it?
Mr. RYDER. You can't tell unless a man tells you. In other words, to look at one you can't tell any difference in workmanship.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as how the scope was mounted, you mean?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any way of knowing whether these scopes are boresighted when mounted by a mail-order house or not?
Mr. RYDER. Most likely they are. Now, I don't know how they operate, if they do boresight any there or not. I do know for a fact if you boresight or zero a boresight on a Redfield base or any base except Bausch and Lomb, other than those, other than the Bausch and Lomb, if you take the scope off and put it back on you have to rezero. In other words, if they did boresight it and take it back off and ship it, it's going to be entirely different when the man receives the gun. It might be close enough for a man to shoot one in but won't be near as close.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that a rifle would have to be zeroed in any event


after it had been shipped from a mail-order house before it could be used to shoot accurately?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; take for example, I have a Model 70 Winchester .30-06 caliber with a K-4 Weaver scope; nearly every season prior to deer season I will shoot it in and I have found several times it has been off just by riding in the back of the car. Taking it in and out of a gun case, things like that will make them off. In other words, they are not built so rigid that a little something here and there can get .bumped loose so it would be like I say, he would have to have it zeroed after he received it from the mail-order house, most definitely.
Mr. LIEBELER. If I were to tell you that this particular rifle had been carried to New Orleans and back in a station wagon and had laid in a garage in Irving for 2 months prior to the assassination and had been moved around in the garage, would that lead you to believe it might be out of sight at that time?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; it could be very possible.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it would be probable or do you have any experience to make a judgment like that?
Mr. RYDER. Like I say, of course, I take proper good care of the gun I got and I have to readjust it quite often when I shoot it in. Of course, .then again, too, later on, from one season to the next I might change from the way I held my gun which is another thing to make a lot of difference in the way I shoot but one to be carried that far, unless it was really taken care of can very, very easily be knocked out of alinement or out of adjustment. Another thing, too, on just looking at this picture--
Mr. LIEBELER. The picture of the rifle?
Mr. RYDER. The picture of the rifle that Mr. Horton had; this was a real cheap, common, real flimsy looking--of course, I couldn't tell by just looking at the picture say the type of material it was made of, but to me it looked rather cheap. It would be very easily knocked out of adjustment.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never been shown the actual rifle itself, is that correct?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I haven't. I would like to see which mount it is, see whose make it is, but I haven't seen it yet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by an agent of the Secret Service?
Mr. RYDER. They came out and talked to Mr. Greener rather than myself. Well, I talked with them, too; we had a triangular, circular conversation--Mr. Greener, myself, and the agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the agent's name?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I said his name was Elmer W. Moore?
Mr. RYDER. Doesn't ring a bell.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the Secret Service agent that you were certain after viewing photographs of Oswald that you had never done any work for him; in fact had never seen him?
Mr. RYDER. Not actually in that tone; like I say, like I told all of them that interviewed me, even the reporter, that his features are very common, I say, for the working class in the Dallas and Fort Worth area and he could have been in the shop, sport shop, I might ought to say, and be easily mistaken for another person or another person similar to his features could have been in, but I couldn't say specific if he had been in the shop or not, I mean, that's something I won't draw a conclusion on because like I say his features, face and all is common with the working class here and he could easily be mistaken one way or the other either for him or for another person.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as far as outside of the shop is concerned, you see, I'm troubled to some extent because I have before me a report of the agent from the Secret Service and a report from the agent of the FBI. One report says you are quite sure you have seen and talked to Oswald and the other one says you are quite sure you have not seen him. I am puzzled by those statements.
Mr. RYDER. Like I continue to say all the way through on their investigation, both that Secret Service man and from the FBI that he could have been in the shop; I could have talked to him but to say I had definitely, I couldn't say I have really talked to him.


Mr. LIEBELER. Could you say you definitely have ever seen him outside of the shop anyplace?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't believe I have. I mean I couldn't say specific because back again to the common features, so on and so forth, but, actually, we have drawn a conclusion, of course, that is, I and the boys and people concerned at the sport shop there that it was either this Oswald with another gun or another Oswald with another gun. We know definitely that it was another gun. We know that for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have already carefully considered the possibility of identifying that other gun but you are not able to do it?
Mr. RYDER. Right; Mr. Greener called all the other Oswalds listed in the Dallas and Irving directories.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did that?
Mr. RYDER. Right, with no avail; in other words, nothing turned up.
Mr. LIEBELER Whose handwriting does the name Oswald appear to be written in?
Mr. RYDER. It's mine.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is your own handwriting?
Mr. RYDER. It is my Own handwriting; the whole thing was written up by me.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first discover this tag?
Mr. RYDER. Well, it's kind of funny, actually, how I found the tag. My workbench generally is cluttered up, you know how tools get scattered around and I was--I had been to the Evinrude Service School----
Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?
Mr. RYDER. Yeah, at the Marriott over here and we were talking about it that evening and, of course, by the time I got back from the service clinic was just about time to close and we left and that Saturday afternoon I started cleaning off the workbench and I found the ticket of which I didn't say anything to anybody else there and when Mr. Horton came out on Monday, well, then I told him we had a tag. I didn't want to keep anything back but after he showed me the picture and everything I apparently drew my conclusions of not working on that particular gun anyway.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop?
Mr. RYDER. Actually, I don't know. He evidently was checking all of the--
Mr. LIEBELER. Gunshops?
Mr. RYDER. Gunshops and hit us on Monday, well, let's see, it was, oh it was about 10:30 or 11 that morning whenever he first came out.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are not familiar with this particular kind of rifle, are you? You have not worked on any similar rifles?
Mr. RYDER. Well, there's quite a few similar but this particular one is a real oddity. It's an odd job and I have never worked on any. I have seen several.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever broken one down?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; never have. As a matter of fact, the only thing I can remember doing is just pulling the bolt back on it and closing it back up. That, to me, is common; I always make sure there's no shells or anything before I look at one. That's the first thing if you hand me a pistol, I kick the cylinder out or spin it through to make sure it's unloaded but this gun is real odd, I mean it's a crude-built gun.
Mr. LIEBELER. When a gun is broken down, by that, I am sure you understand that I mean you remove the action and the barrel from the stock. The rifle then is, generally speaking, in two shorter pieces.
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. The two pieces you have are shorter than the gun is when put together?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is generally true because the stock of the rifle doesn't ordinarily extend to the end of the barrel?
Mr. RYDER. Right; now on some military rifles they do extend all the way to the end of the barrel or close to the end, put it that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you note in connection with the picture that you observed of this rifle they found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you


note whether or not on that rifle the stock went very close to the end of the barrel or didn't come out so far?
Mr. RYDER. As far as I remember it had been cut off, or, in other words, it didn't go to the end of the barrel, as far as I remember, I don't. I am quite sure it didn't. It went a little over half way in the picture that I saw.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that sometimes in the military rifles the stock goes quite far along the barrel?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that not a common type of construction in a domestic rifle or nonmilitary rifle?
Mr. RYDER. Right; or nonmilitary or what we call a spotter rifle your stock goes half way to the end of the barrel leaving the end of the barrel to wiggle as it may. A military rifle, M-I, Garand, 03A3, 303, they all are of wood and completely encased around the barrel. In other words, you had a piece run all the way on the bottom of it; piece that filled in on the top side. Lot of people use military rifles or use sporter rifles that some cut the stock off at a slight angle, say, a little above half way of the barrel. Others go ahead and spend and buy the sporter-type stock they can fit their gun to, but as far as I remember, this stock an the picture didn't go all the way to the end of the barrel.
Mr. LIEBELER. Unless you can think of anything else that you want to add at .this point I just tell you for the record that my present inclination is to close the deposition at this point. I may wish to question you again and possibly bring the rifle down here so you can look at it. Unless you can think of anything else you want to add at this time that you think might be helpful, we will terminate. Can you think of anything else?
Mr. RYDER. No; I can't think of anything right now.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask one or two more questions. You mentioned you were interviewed by the Dallas police force about this. Do you remember the name of the man or men who talked to you on the Dallas police force?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't. Actually, I say Dallas Police Department, it was the sheriff's department rather than the Dallas Police Department, really. Of course, I connect the two together but they're two separate organizations; I know that.
Mr. LIEBELER. In view of my former statement, I would like to thank you at this time. If we decide to continue with this, we will advise you in the future.


The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 12:45 p.m., on April 1, 1964, at the Irving Sports Shop, 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the continued deposition of Dial Duwayne Ryder. The witness having been previously sworn, we will continue with the examination.
First of all, Mr. Ryder, I want to show you a picture that has been marked Exhibit No. 1, on Mr. Greener's deposition. I ask you if that is a picture of the repair tag that you found here in the shop?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; that is the one right there.
Mr. LIEBELER. It has the name Oswald on it and the words drill and tap $4.50; bore sight, $1.50; total $6.
Mr. RYDER. That is the one we was thinking about the other day. Did it have the $6 tag or the $4.50 tag, because we sometimes charge for the boresight and sometimes don't, depending on the type work we do or what we actually do on the thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the exact details under which you found the tag in the shop?
Mr. RYDER. Well, we talked about this thing on Saturday morning and like I said before, like you saw the workbench up there today, that it is cluttered up,


and on Saturday evening I was cleaning it off and found the tag laying back on the workbench.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Saturday following the assassination?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You found the tag there yourself?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had the FBI been out here prior to that time?
Mr. RYDER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. They had not?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI first come out?
Mr. RYDER. On Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. On Monday?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; that was on Monday, of the funeral of the late President.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 25, 1963, when the FBI came out on Monday and you gave them the tag or showed them this tag; is that right?
Mr. RYDER. He told us to hold onto it, and then they later came by and got the tag.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to the newspaper reporter about this?
Mr. RYDER. There were several out here after the FBI had been out, and we told them the same thing that we told the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't talk to any newspaper reporter before the FBI came out here?
Mr. RYDER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that?
Mr. RYDER. I am positive about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was your impression at the time the FBI came that they were making a routine check of all guns?
Mr. RYDER. That is my opinion. That is the idea I had.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any special reason why they came to this particular gun shop?
Mr. RYDER. No; he didn't give any specific reason. He was just checking us out. Like I say, probably just routine like he checked all others.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now I show you two pictures that have been marked Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 on Mr. Greener's deposition. They are pictures of a rifle, and I ask you if you have ever seen a rifle like that or ever worked on one here in your shop?
Mr. RYDER. I have seen them but never have worked on one of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you seen them before the assassination?
Mr. RYDER. This is what I was talking about the other day. This is not as plain a picture as Mr. Horton had. Evidently that is a reprint, but there are two screws, one here and one here, where on the tag I have charged for three holes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are indicating the screws on Exhibit No. 3, that hold the scope mount to the rifle; is that correct?
Mr. RYDER. Mr. Horton, the FBI man, on the rifle he had it was real plain and you could see these two screws, and this was a hole, but there wasn't any screws. There was just two screws in the mount.
Mr. LIEBELER. The mount had three holes but only two screws?
Mr. RYDER. That is apparently in the picture you have here, and this is what I was referring to as a cheap mount. This looked to me like even in this picture it was real thin gage metal. I can show you something like that, that we use on a .22 scope, and that is all we use.
Mr. LIEBELER. But in your opinion it is too light a mount?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; it is too easy to get jarred off on a high-powered rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would throw the accuracy of the rifle off, wouldn't it?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is all I have, Mr. Ryder. I just wanted you to look at the pictures, and I thank you very much.
Mr. RYDER. I don't know which one it was, but it looked---it looks like a copy


of the one the FBI man had, except it's been copied over and over. This is not as plain as the one he had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you if the FBI or anybody that ever talked to you ever showed you any pictures of a man and asked you if you could identify that man as Oswald?
Mr. RYDER. He showed me a picture of Oswald, but like I told him, I couldn't say definitely if I knew him or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some other pictures that we have. The first five pictures have previously been marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456, and I will ask you if you can recognize the man or men described in these pictures. Have you ever seen them anywhere, as far as you can recall? And second, if you have ever seen him in the shop?
Mr. RYDER. No; they don't look like too familiar to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do they appear to be pictures of the same man to you, or a different man?
Mr. RYDER. They look actually to me like they are different men. These two look real close.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Commission Exhibits Nos. 456 and 451?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; they look real similar in their hairline. Actually, I guess this looks about the same, too.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 455. But the other two pictures look a little different?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The other two being Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and 454? Now I show you a picture that has been marked previously as Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A. I ask you to look at all the individuals in that picture and tell me if you recognize any of them.
There are two individuals that have been marked by a green mark, but don't confine your attention to them.
Mr. RYDER. This one I know is Oswald, as the pictures in the paper, but as far as seeing the guy personally, I don't think I ever have. I could have, but being in business here, it would be hard to say. Any of the others, I don't believe I have seen any of the others, but this one, like I say, just by picture
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the man that has been marked with an "X"?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or with two lines as opposed to one straight line on Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A. I now will show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? There is a man marked with a green mark in the left-hand corner of the picture.
Mr. RYDER. This would be the only one. Like I say, seeing him on television and in the paper, that is as far as I could go.
Mr. LIEBELER. The man marked with the green line, is that right?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture which has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C. Do you recognize him?
Mr. RYDER. This is the same picture that the FBI had of Oswald, the same picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember seeing this man in the shop?
Mr. RYDER. Like I say, as many people as we have in here, it would be hard to distinguish one from another unless they come in quite frequently and you begin to know them. Then you would know what he looks like and kind of put a name with a face. There are several people that come in here that have been coming in for several years, but I can't make this old ticker work up there as to their names.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you aren't able to say whether this man was in the shop?
Mr. RYDER. He may have or may not have been. I couldn't say for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you, Mr. Ryder. We appreciate your cooperation The Commission wants to thank you very much for the cooperation that you have given us.
Mr. RYDER. Yes.



The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 7:40 p.m., on July 23. 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Street's, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe this is the third time that we have met and I have advised you previously of the nature of the Commission's work and you are familiar with the kind of problems that we have?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are aware of your rights to have an attorney if you want to--we have already discussed that previously, as I recall, and you know who I am, and, of course, you are Dial Ryder and you work at the Irving Sports Shop, and we have had previous testimony concerning the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald may have had some work done on his rifle in your sports shop. When I talked to you previously, I asked you if I recall correctly about any conversations that you might have had with a newspaper reporter from The Dallas Times Herald; do you recall me asking you about that?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. And my recollection is that you told me that you had not talked to any newspaper reporters from The Dallas Times Herald in connection with the story that appeared in that newspaper on November 28, 1963?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And specifically you had said that you had not talked to a newspaper reporter on the morning of November 28, 1963, although you did say that on that morning, sometime around about 7:30 a newspaper reporter did call you from The Dallas Times Herald and told you that he wanted to talk to you about this whole situation and you refused to talk to him?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And You hung up the telephone and as I recall, you testified that you then took the receiver off the hook, making it impossible for any other calls to come into your telephone; is that correct?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you were interviewed by the FBI again on May 18, 1964, and you told them that same story; is that correct?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in fact correct?
Mr. RYDER. That's right. It sure is.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to advise you of the fact that we have located the newspaper reporter who supposedly talked to you that morning and his name is Hunter Schmidt, Jr., and that he has testified that he came to work at The Dallas Times Herald that morning and had a lead on this story that he had gotten from an anonymous telephone call that some woman made to the FBI and one was made to a television station here in Dallas telling them that Oswald had had some work done in your sports shop and I think I previously asked you about this and you said you didn't have anything to do with those anonymous telephone calls; is that right?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Schmidt says that he started looking for your name which he got from somewhere, apparently in connection with the Dallas Police Department and tracked you down at your home and called you between 7:30 and 8 o'clock on the morning of November 28, 1963, and that apparently your wife answered the telephone as you were still asleep and you came to the telephone and you appeared to be sleepy and that he talked to you for an extended period of time, and that you gave him the information that subsequently appeared in the newspaper article on November 28, 1963, in The Dallas Times Herald.
Mr. Schmidt was advised when he testified that you had denied giving him


this story, although you had admitted that some reporter had called you on the telephone that morning. Is the name Hunter Schmidt familiar to you at all?
Mr. RYDER. No; it's not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not that was the particular newspaper reporter that called you that morning?
Mr. RYDER. I couldn't say definitely for sure---like I said--I told them I had no comment on it and hung the thing up.
Mr. LIEBELER. In addition to the fact that Mr. Schmidt has so testified, I have been advised that one of Mr. Schmidt's associates was sitting right there in the office at the time Schmidt called you and heard the entire conversation between Schmidt and yourself and he said that Schmidt did talk to you for an extended period of time, or to a person by the name of Dial Ryder, who gave him this information about the gun work being done at the Irving Sports Shop and he said he heard the whole conversation.
Mr. Schmidt has, during the course of his testimony, volunteered to take a polygraph examination on this whole question as to whether or not he talked to you that morning and as to whether or not you gave him the information about the gun ticket and about the three holes that were drilled in the rifle and all the other information that appeared in that newspaper story. I am not here to say myself who is telling the truth, because I don't know, but it is perfectly obvious that one of you is not telling the truth, either Mr. Schmidt or you. I don't know what reasons you would have for not telling the truth, and I don't know what reasons Mr. Schmidt would have for not telling the truth, but I wonder if on reflection and in view of the statements that I have just made to you, if you can ponder this whole question and perhaps refresh your recollection. I don't know whether you talked to this newspaper reporter or not, but in view of the fact that we have this other testimony, I wonder if it would in some way refresh your recollection that in fact you did talk to this man?
Mr. RYDER. No; like I said, the only people I talked to were Mr. Horton with the FBI and then the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's department--is the only ones I talked to about this, until, like I told you--the CBS reporters came out and we made the television deal after radios and everything got the thing and then we thought we had it straightened out with them, but as far as that morning, I didn't talk to anybody over the phone about it except I said I had no comment and hung up the receiver and then took the receiver back off of the hook and went on about my business of sleeping on this Sunday morning.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a woman by the name of Edith Whitworth?
Mr. RYDER. Let's see---there was a lady from the Washington Press.
Mr. LIEBELER. No; this is a woman who used to run a furniture shop in Irving, which is down on Irving Boulevard.
Mr. RYDER. No; I don't know her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Greener knows her?
Mr. RYDER. Now, he might--I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any woman by the name of Mrs. Gertrude Hunter who also lives in Irving and is a friend of Mrs. Whitworth's?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't know them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you aware of the fact that just down Irving Boulevard from the Irving Sports Shop, a block and a half or so west, there used to be another gunshop where a man carried guns?
Mr. RYDER. Well, there was a little place down there where he handled guns--I don't know whether--if he was able to work on them or not, but it was about two blocks down the street or a block and a half or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the west?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And do you know that there used to be a used furniture shop that was there?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; it's still there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't know the people that ran it?
Mr. RYDER. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt is sitting out here in the front office and I'm going to ask him to come in and have you two gentlemen discuss this problem, see if there is some way we can resolve this story on this telephone conversation.


(At this point Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., entered the room.)
Mr. LIEBELER. I have brought Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., into the room and Mr. Schmidt has previously been sworn as a witness and testified yesterday on this question. I introduce you to Mr. Dial Ryder.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Mr. Ryder, how do you do?
Mr. LIEBELER. As I have indicated to Mr. Ryder, Mr. Schmidt testified yesterday that on the morning of November 28, 1963, you came to work in your office at the Dallas Times Herald and received information of some sort that possibly Lee Oswald had had some work done on a rifle, on his rifle or a rifle, in some sports shops or gunshop in the outlying areas of Dallas. Would you tell us briefly what happened after that, Mr. Schmidt?
Mr. SCHMIDT. After I got the tip, I traced it down and thought it was Garland first and I looked it up in the phonebook--the city directory--and the usual sources that we go through--I looked-through and this Ryder was the only one that I could find, or apparently he was the one that said what I was looking for.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get Ryder's name in the first place; do you know?
Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, it was from a tip around the police station. Now, I don't remember. I have been trying to remember where who specifically it came from, but it was one of the many we were getting at that time. As I said before, we had several different 'leads on different stories and that they were coming in pretty thick, so I don't really remember where I got the Ryder name, but it came from around the police Station, one of our boys covering this angle of the assassination, called in from down there that a Ryder was supposed to have mounted a scope on a rifle for a customer named Oswald, so I stared checking from there, and like I said yesterday, I thought at first it was Garland and I had to do it by a process of elimination.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you went through the city directory and you finally found it in the phone book?
Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe I used the phonebooks and I found this Ryder and I called him up.
Mr. LIEBELER. About what time in the morning?
Mr. SCHMIDT. Oh, 7:30 or 8--something like that. I come in at 7 o'clock and it may be a little after 8, but I estimate it was between 7:30 or 8, but it was early, and I called the Ryder and there was a woman answered the phone.
Then, apparently the Ryder I talked to, and I guess it's this same Dial Ryder, I'm not sure, but the Ryder I talked to apparently had to get out of bed, there was a little interval, and come to the phone, and the person I talked to sounded sleepy. He gave me the information I got and it was very matter of fact and I believe you used the term "cordial" yesterday. I guess---that would be it--he was not antagonistic, but he was very--just very conversational in the question and answer session and explanation, and he said he had a ticket with the name Oswald on it and that it could have been the Oswald. He said he didn't remember for sure what the face looked like with the Oswald ticket, but he under-stands--he said he understood that this Oswald had a very common face for this area and I asked about buying ammunition or how many time he came in. I think he was sort of vague on that--he wasn't sure how many times he had been in, and besides talking about the sighting the rifle and the boring of the holes, that was in essence what it was, what we had in the paper. I believe I explained to you about the boresighting bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was some conversation between you about that?
Mr. SCHMIDT. He mentioned the boresighting and I don't think I understood it fully and that might have been a lithe incorrect in the paper, but that was the only thing that this technicality bit about the boresighting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Ryder, you have been siring here watching Mr. Schmidt and listening to his voice; does his voice seem at all familiar to you?
Mr. RYDER. Sure doesn't--not to me at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what your recollection is of what happened on that morning?
Mr. RYDER Well, like I have said before, and it is in my testimony--the FBI has the same thing--the phone rang. It was roughly 7:30, I would say it was closer to 7:30 than it was 8, and the reporter asked me had I mounted the scope


on the Oswald gun and I told him I had no comment and I hung up, I mean. I took the receiver off the hook and that's all I done and all I said here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt, after listening to Mr. Ryder's voice, can you identify it as the voice you say you spoke to on the telephone that day, or are you unable to do it?
Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I couldn't honestly identify him by voice now. It was 6 or 7 months ago and I only talked to Ryder once.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ryder, do you know of any other Ryders out there in the area who would have any knowledge of this gun ticket at the Irving Sports Shop?
Mr. RYDER. Not that I know of--not that I know of.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as I indicated to you, Mr. Schmidt has volunteered and requested a polygraph examination to try to clear this matter up, and I wonder if you have any suggestion that you think of as to how it might be done?
Mr. RYDER. Well, I'll take the thing if you want me to take it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to ask you to do it, but if you want to request it and assist the Commission in clearing this matter up, I think we could make arrangements. to have a polygraph examination administered to both of you.
Mr. RYDER. Well, I'm not one to volunteer for anything.
Mr. SCHMIDT. I am perfectly willing to, because I stand beside that story. I don't know this man personally, if this is the Ryder of the gun shop, the Irving Sports Shop, and the same one that identified himself that morning--that was the information I got from him and I don't have any reason to lie about it, you know, I get the same amount of pay, I don't get any extra money for that story and I didn't even get a byline for the story. I knew that it would be just part of a story. So, I feel like I am a professional with my business and I just don't like to be doubted.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not there was anybody else in your office at the time you heard this conversation that you had with Ryder?
Mr. SCHMIDT. There were several men around there but I'm not sure whether they recall this conversation or not or whether they were even paying any attention. There are a couple of men that sit right to my left and a couple to my right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the Commission has followed the practice of due regard for the civil rights of the people who have been involved in this thing and it is not requesting anybody to take a polygraph examination, and it is not prepared to make an exception in this case for you, Mr. Ryder. If you want to volunteer to do so, the Commission will take it under advisement and decide what it wants to do, but it is not going to request you to do so, and I cannot even put myself in the position of even asking you to or urging you to or suggesting that you do so. That's entirely up to you.
Mr. RYDER. Well, like I said, I will take the thing if it boils down to that. Like I say, and I have contended all along, that I did not talk to anybody on Thanksgiving Day, that morning. I didn't talk to anybody. That was my day off.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with any other newspaper reporters--that afternoon, but of course, that day--which you said you wanted to enjoy as your day off, but' you did go over to the shop that afternoon and meet the television people, did you not?
Mr. RYDER. Right, that's after the story broke over the radio.
Mr. LIEBELER. And in the newspaper?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; and in the newspaper, and then we got with the CBS boys and made the little film that they wanted.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to any newspaper reporters at any time the next day or the day after that about this whole story?
Mr. RYDER. Well, they were all over the place the next day---on Friday--Friday and Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you still take the position that you had nothing to do with the original story that came out and you never talked to the newspaper reporters prior to the time the story came out in The Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea where they got the story?


Mr. RYDER. I still don't know--I kind of felt like where they got it was over the radio---originally---I don't know. The CBS boys said that they got it off of the Associated Press wires, is how they got it, or over the AP.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it is not the ordinary practice, of course, for the Commission to advise witnesses what kind of an investigation it has made in connection with this thing, at least, not until the report comes out, but I think you ought to know that as a result of the existence of this gun ticket and the story that you told the FBI and the Commission, the FBI has attempted to find every Oswald in the whole Dallas and Fort Worth area and the surrounding area and it has found many of them and it has questioned all of them, some of whom have moved out of Dallas and Fort Worth, as to whether or not they ever had any work done in that gunshop, and you should know that none of them ever did, and you should also know, and I think you probably do by now, that Lee Oswald could not have had any scope mounted on the rifle that he used to assassinate the President in your shop, and in fact, I don't think you claim you did mount that particular scope?
Mr. RYDER. That's right. We have claimed that it wasn't that one. On the Monday after, well, it was the Monday of the funeral of President Kennedy, that Mr. Horton came out and I thought at that time I had it cleared with him that I hadn't mounted the scope on the gun he used to assassinate the President.
Mr. LIEBELER. That you had not?
Mr. RYDER. That we had not.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you weren't able to remember Lee Harvey Oswald's face as being the face of the man who had previously been in that shop: isn't that right?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you couldn't associate any specific gun or any specific man with that particular work ticket; isn't that right?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any possible suggestions as to where that work ticket could have come from if it appears, and it certainly does appear that no other Oswald came in there and there is no evidence of any sort to indicate that Lee Harvey Oswald ever had any other rifle than the one he used to assassinate the President, and he never brought that one in the sports shop?
Mr. RYDER. All I know is that we had the ticket laying on the workbench back there and I had written it up and completed the work on it and the gun had been picked up. Now, as to whether it was Lee Oswald, I couldn't positively identify him or if there was another one out there right now I could not identify anybody if they said they did bring it in.
Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollecttion, you wrote that gun ticket sometime in the early part of November; is that right?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are certain that you wrote it up before November 22?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you are not able to associate that particular ticket with any particular gun in your own mind?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I also recall that when I asked you questions about this before, you indicated that possibly we could fix the date on which this ticket had been written because you had written it with a pencil and you said you remembered you had gone to Dallas on that particular day, and that you used a pencil to get some materials from a wholesale shop. Of course, the FBI, as you now know, has gone and has found out every day that you ever went to Dallas to get gun materials and asked you if you could identify the time and the date by reviewing this list of materials that you got from the wholesale house in Dallas and you weren't able to associate it with any particular day you used a pencil.
Mr. RYDER. Right; he had 2 or 3 days there that he showed me some copies--actually, he gave he some dates that I came to town and signed and there were 2 or 3 days there in that period that I had. Signed with a pencil, and it could have been that some of those days I had a pencil laying handy and I just picked it up rather than taking my pen out of my shirt.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be surprised if the Commission concluded, after this


investigation that the FBI conducted and the questioning that we have done, that there was never any man in there by the name of Oswald with any gun at all?
Mr. RYDER. Yeah--like I said--all I've got is that ticket with his name on it and the work being done.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, at this point I think we might as well conclude the deposition. The Commission will take under advisement Mr. Schmidt's request to have a polygraph examination administered to him, and I am advised by one of the U.S. attorneys here that one of the other reporters over at the newspaper does remember the conversation and we will take his deposition tomorrow. If you want to have a polygraph examination administered to you, after reflecting on this, or if you have anything further to say about the whole thing, contact Miss Stroud here at the U.S. attorneys office, if you want to.
Mr. RYDER. Okay. Is that all?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's all. Thanks a lot, Mr. Ryder.

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