The testimony of Mr. Gary E. Taylor was taken at 2 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jennet, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was also present.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Taylor, will you stand and be sworn please? In your testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. TAYLOR. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Taylor, did you receive recently---I guess it was last week--- a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the Presidential Assassination Commission----
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Asking if you would appear for the taking of your deposition?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's true.
Mr. JENNER. And was there included with that letter a copy of the Executive Order of President Lyndon B. Johnson. No. 11130 of November 29, 1963, in which he appoints and authorizes the Commission and directs that it prescribe its procedures----
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Together with a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the 88th Congress, first session, legislatively authorizing the creation of the Commission?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was.
Mr. JENNER. Pursuant to that Executive order and the Senate joint resolution, the Presidential Assassination Commission is investigating all the facts and circumstances that it thinks are pertinent to the assassination of the President and all the facts and circumstances surrounding it and what led up to it or might have led up to it. We have, from information which you have voluntarily furnished, and from other sources, knowledge that you had contacts with the Oswalds and with persons who, in turn, also had contacts with the Oswalds and that you might be able to furnish some information which we think might be helpful. I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission which, you will notice from the rules, a staff member is authorized to take depositions here in Dallas and conduct the examination. And you appear here voluntarily?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your full name is Gary--[spelling] G-a-r-y---E. Taylor?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What's your middle name?
Mr. TAYLOR. Edward.
Mr. JENNER. And you live in Fort Worth--is that correct, sir?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I live in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Dallas? And your address in Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. 3948 Orlando Court, apartment 111.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a married man?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Family?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How many children?
Mr. TAYLOR. One.
Mr. JENNER. And what is your age?
Mr. TAYLOR. Twenty-three.
Mr. JENNER. You are an American citizen?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Born here?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your wife is an American citizen?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.


Mr. JENNER. Born here?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your children born here?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of this area of the country?
Mr. TAYLOR. I am a native of Wichita, Kans. I've been in Dallas since 1951.
Mr. JENNER. Did your profession or avocation or vocation or work bring you to Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I moved here with my parents.
Mr. JENNER. Your parents came here. All right. And what is your business or occupation or profession?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm a recording engineer for the Sellers Co.
Mr. JENNER. And what is the Sellers Co?
Mr. TAYLOR. A recording company whose primary function is the recording of radio and television commercials.
Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been in that business?
Mr. TAYLOR. I went to work for them in September.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mr. TAYLOR. Prior to that, I was in the Motion Picture Industry. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your occupations back through, let us say, 1961.
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--prior to joining the Sellers Co. in September last, I was self-employed in the Motion Picture Industry in Dallas as a grip and assistant cameraman. Before that, I worked at various part-time jobs and attended college at Arlington State.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a graduate of Arlington State?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I'm not. I'm a 3-year student.
Mr. JENNER. So, you've had elementary and high school education and 3 years at Arlington State?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Are you attending there at night--is that a night school?
Mr. TAYLOR. They hold night classes. I'm not attending.
Mr. JENNER. During the time you had your interest, which you still may have, in--what did you say--photographing?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Oh--it was motion picture work primarily centered around television commercials.
Mr. JENNER. Are you an amateur camera fan?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just a little bit. I try to carry it on as best I can.
Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time become acquainted with or meet either Marina or Less Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which of the two did you meet first?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't actually remember. I met both of them on the same day in their home.
Mr. JENNER. On the same occasion?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information about them prior to the time you met them?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I had.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when was it you met them?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe it was in September 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a prearranged meeting, an accidental meeting, or was it a purposeful meeting?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was prearranged.
Mr. JENNER. Prearranged. All right. We'll get to the purpose in a moment, if we can defer that for a bit. Would you tell us the circumstances, persons involved also, that led to your becoming acquainted in advance with something about the Oswalds and which led up to the occasion when, you met them, as you have now indicated?
Mr. TAYLOR. All right.


Mr. JENNER. In other words, how did it come about--from the beginning of the world to the present?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--about a week before I met them, uh---my wife was told of them by either her father or stepmother. That would be either Mr. or Mrs. George De Mohrenschildt [spelling] D-e-M-o-h-r-e-n-s-c-h-i-l-d-t.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. And the first name is George. And do you know the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's first name given name?
Mr. TAYLOR. It is pronounced Zhon [phonetic].
Mr. JENNER. Pronounced as though it's spelled J-o-n?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes--uh--it is pronounced as the Dutch would say it--Zhon. I believe that she uses the French spelling of the name, although I'm not familiar with it.
Mr. JENNER. Is she sometimes called Jeanne [spelling] J-e-a-n-n-e?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. I'm not sure of the "e" on the end of it.
Mr. JENNER. I'd like to back up a moment. Your wife what was her maiden name?
Mr. TAYLOR. Alexandra Romyne----
Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] R-o-m-i-n-e?
Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] R-o-m-y-n-e.
Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And she was the daughter of whom?
Mr. TAYLOR. Of George De Mohrenschildt and a woman who is now known as Mrs. J. M. Brandel.
Mr. JENNER. Spell that last name.
Mr. TAYLOR. [ Spelling] B-r-a-n-d-e-l.
Mr. JENNER. And the present Mrs. Brandel--she was the wife of George De Mohrenschildt and, in turn, is the mother of your wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. That is true. But that is not the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. No; I appreciate that. Where does she live now?
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Brandel, as last I knew, was living at Stellara B.
Mr. JENNER. Will you spell that?
Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] S-t-e-l-l-a-r-a-B.
Mr. JENNER. Just the letter "B"?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just the letter "B." I believe Stellara means apartment in Italian. Vagna Clara [spelling] V-a-g-n-a C-l-a-r-a, Rome, Italy.
Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; she has remarried--and her name is Brandel.
Mr. JENNER. How many children were born of that marriage?
Mr. TAYLOR. One.
Mr. JENNER. Just your wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And was the present Mrs. Brandel the first wife, second wife, third wife of Mr. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. TAYLOR. The first wife---to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Are you informed that in addition to the present Mrs. Brandel and the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt also was married to at least one, if not two other women?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I am aware of one other one.
Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us about the one that you do have in mind?
Mr. TAYLOR. I know very little about her, other than that her name is Dee--- her first name is Dee.
Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] D-e-e?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Dee or DeeDee? Is she sometimes called DeeDee?
Mr. TAYLOR. She may have been. And that they had two children, one of which is deceased.
Mr. JENNER. And the one who still survives is male or female?
Mr. TAYLOR. Female.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know her name and whereabouts?
Mr. TAYLOR. Her given name is Nodjia--and I do not know the spelling of it. It is, I believe, a Russian name.


Mr. JENNER. Could you Spell it phonetically?
Mr. TAYLOR. [Spelling] N-o-d-j-i-a (phonetic).
Mr. JENNER. Is she married?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; she's a minor.
Mr. JENNER. She's still a minor?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where does she live?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe in Philadelphia--but I can't be sure of that.
Mr. JENNER. The impression is, at least, that she is living with her mother in Philadelphia?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than with the De Mohrenschildts in Port-au-Prince, Haiti?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You are aware of the fact that George De Mohrenschildt and his present wife now, are at least presently, are residing in Port-au-Prince, Haiti?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. (Off the record discussion follows.)
Mr. JENNER. In order that the record be not too confused, I think it would be well that you finish recounting what led up to your meeting with Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald, and then I will go back when we finish that subject, and put the De Mohrenschildts in proper perspective.
Mr. TAYLOR. All right.
Mr. JENNER. We have been off the record in the meantime, haven't we, Mr. Taylor, during which time you recounted to me something about the De Mohrenschildts and the relation between your present wife and the De Mohrenschildts, and other matters in that connection.
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. We will bring that out later. (At this point, Mr. Jenner asked your reporter to orient the witness by referring back to the point of interruption, when he started recounting how his meeting with the Oswalds came about.) Your REPORTER. [Reading] "About a week before I met them, my wife was told of them by either her father or stepmother--Mr. and Mrs. George De Mohrenschildt."
Mr. JENNER. Now, that's where I interrupted. Please go on from there.
Mr. TAYLOR. They explained to us that----
Mr. JENNER. When you say "they," you mean whom?
Mr. TAYLOR. One or the other of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. Explained to my wife----
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. JENNER. This is something your wife told you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. That a Russian girl, Mrs. Oswald, was living in Fort Worth with her husband, and that they were going to be--the De Mohrenschildts were going to be in Fort Worth on Sunday afternoon attending a concert and that after the concert, they would like for us to join them, the De Mohrenschildts, and visit the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this?
Mr. TAYLOR. In early September of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Go on.
Mr. TAYLOR. We----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Had you ever heard of a Lee Oswald or of an American being back here with a Russian wife---or was this entirely new to you?
Mr. TAYLOR. This was new to me. I was not aware of the presence of either one of them prior to this.
Mr. JENNER And, as far as you know, was it new to your wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, from a conversation we had while we were off the record,


the wife you now speak of---that is, back in 1962--that is not your present wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. But that wife what was her maiden name?
Mr. TAYLOR. Alexandra Romyne De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. And we met them, as they had suggested, in Fort Worth one Sunday afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "them," you mean----
Mr. TAYLOR. The two De Mohrenschildts. And we met the Oswalds and also----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. What did you do? You went to the concert over there?
Mr. TAYLOR. We went to the Oswalds' home. We had been given an address and a time when the De Mohrenschildts would already have arrived.
Mr. JENNER. And when you arrived at this place, were your father-in-law and mother-in-law present?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they were.
Mr. JENNER. And where was this?
Mr. TAYLOR. This was on Mercedes Street. I do not remember the number.
Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir; in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. You located the apartment, as you had been advised of the number?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was a house.
Mr. JENNER. It was a house----not an apartment?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was a house.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a single-family dwelling or a duplex?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure. It was either a single-family unit or a duplex.
Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection which one it was?
Mr. TAYLOR. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Describe to us what you saw in the way of the room or rooms, the surroundings, whether neat and clean and whether threadbare or new furniture or what did it look like inside?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was a comparatively bare room, as I remember, uncarpeted. The furniture was badly worn. It was, however, clean--particularly so considering the number of people that were there.
Mr. JENNER. And it was orderly--not messy?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you entered that room, there were present two persons introduced to you as Mr. and Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Oswald introduced to you as Marina Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe she was.
Mr. JENNER. And your father-in-law and your mother-in-law, the De Mohrenschildts, yourself, and your wife anybody else present?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; several other people were present. Lee Oswald's mother was there.
Mr. JENNER. Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. George Bouhe was there. A Mr. and Mrs. Hall was there--- John Hall and his estranged wife. I'm not sure of her name---first name.
Mr. JENNER. Elena [spelling] E-l-e-n-a--Hall?
Mr. TAYLOR. Elena.
Mr. JENNER. Which, of any, of these people had you known prior to the time that you stepped into this room?
Mr. TAYLOR. Only the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. So, this was your first acquaintance with the Halls, your first acquaintance with Marguerite Oswald, and your first acquaintance with Lee and Marina Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And what ensued---by way of what anybody did and what anybody said?


Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember but very sketchily what went on that afternoon. There's a number of questions in my mind about what preceded--I mean, Mrs. Oswald----
Mr. JENNER. Will you please state them and where you are stating a question in your mind as distinct from something that was said----
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I will come to that. I was only trying to establish a general vagueness of recollection of the afternoon. Mrs. Oswald left shortly after I arrived.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you mean Marguerite?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; Lee's mother.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen her other than on this short visit?
Mr. TAYLOR. Not except in news media. Never in person other than that one afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. And you've had no contact with her directly since this particular occasion you are now relating?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the news media to which you refer is news media activities subsequent to November 22, 1963?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. She was just there for about 5 minutes?
Mr. TAYLOR. Less than 45 minutes, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to form an impression of her in those few minutes?
Mr. TAYLOR. I just have a vague recollection of a somewhat plump woman who seemed to be---uh--out of place in the present crowd that was there that afternoon. And she didn't seem to be particularly interested in anything that went on--and I think that's what prompted her to leave.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to observe and form an opinion from those observations as to the attitude between Lee Oswald and Marguerite?
Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that it was one of estrangement between them; that they had very little communication between them; that they were almost strangers---and possibly even didn't like each other. Particularly on Lee's part, I should think.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And this was, again, September of 1962---did you say?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. September 1962. Okay--I've got myself oriented. Go ahead.
Mr. TAYLOR. And that we talked generally about some of the things that--- uh---some of Lee's observations about Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did he speak in English or Russian?
Mr. TAYLOR. He spoke in English when talking to my wife of that time or I; and quite often in Russian--as I believe everyone in the room spoke Russian except my wife, myself, and John Hall. I'm not sure if John Hall spoke Russian or not--but certainly both the De Mohrenschildts, and George Bouhe does.
Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe, beth of the De Mohrenschildts--your mother-in-law and father-in-law and both the Oswalds--Lee and Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In addition to that, there was Mrs. Hall.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Hall also spoke Russian?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Neither you nor your then wife spoke Russian?
Mr. TAYLOR. She had a knowledge of Russian but certainly not enough to converse with them. She could understand some Russian when it was spoken to her, but could not speak but just a few words.
Mr. JENNER. Could she follow a normal conversation between two others who were speaking so each could understand the other, but not any attempt to slow down and what-not in order to enable her to try and pick up?
Mr. TAYLOR. I imagine they would have had to have spoken very plainly and slowly and using simple words for her to have understood any of it.
Mr. JENNER. I believe I interrupted you at a point where you stated that you talked generally about some of Lee's experiences and observations about Russia.


Would you continue from that point, indicating as best you can now recall, what was said about Lee's experiences in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. It's difficult to remark specifically about what we talked of that day. Perhaps it would be better if I--uh--told you all I can remember that he said about Russia on several occasions now rather than--because I cannot remember specifically what we discussed on that day.
Mr. JENNER. All right. So we can get one point in the record--I'll probably ask more specifically about the different occasions later on. But give us a running account such as you have indicated you desire to make.
Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Lee, on various occasions, and I discussed the life that he led in Russia, his experiences in Russia, and his general observations about it. I guess I should best start with his observations of family life there. He and Marina lived in an apartment. It was about 10 x 14. And he remarked that all families in Russia lived in apartments of this approximate size regardless of the size of the families--that there were no private residences as we think of them. And that six family units would be grouped around a community kitchen and lavatory, and where all the families shared the same facilities. And that he and Marina did live in this manner. That he worked as a sheet-metal fabricator in the town of Minsk, and received for his remuneration for his work 45 rubles a month--which was the minimum, he said, that everyone in Russia receives whether they work or not. He went into some detail about what is received directly from the State without payment. In other words, what services a Russian citizen receives in what we would call socialized services--such as medicine. A Russian citizen does not have to pay for medical services; the house apartment, a place to live, a Russian citizen does not have to pay for it. There is no charge for this. And we also discussed what other people made. I believe he said Marina received 180 rubles a month for her work as a pharmacist. And that she had received training in that. And we discussed their school system somewhat--how a student that worked hard is allowed to continue with his schooling, whereas a student that either doesn't work hard or isn't capable is taken only to a level of which they are capable and then put to work. And we went on and discussed their financial system a little bit further, and I learned that a person does get raises in a job, that salaries---once you are given a job, why your salary does increase as you continue through the years on a skilled job.
Mr. JENNER. As your skills increase?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; at the same job.
Mr. DAVIS. As your age increases?
Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, for length of time at your machine, for example. When you first come to work, like Lee, and you make 45 rubles a month, as he does it for so many years or for such a length of time, he gets a raise over and above that.
Mr. JENNER. Then, that increase comes purely as a matter of passage of time and has no relation to skill?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about--take the example he gave machine operator--if the machine operator next to Oswald, for example--take a hypothetical person--is much more skillful then Oswald, is the compensation the same?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--to my knowledge, it would be.
Mr. JENNER. That's the impression you received?
Mr. TAYLOR. That is the impression I received. I believe he said that someone doing his job, by the time they reach retirement age I don't remember what that was--would be receiving something just under 200 rubles a month for performing the same task.
Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate a comparative relationship between the ruble and the dollar--to give you some notion of what 45 rubles a month, for example, or 200 rubles a month meant in terms of American money?
Mr. TAYLOR. I asked Lee that question, as I remember, and he told me that a comparison was difficult because of the socialized or free services given to the citizen by the Government; that, for example, out of his 45 rubles a month


that he had to buy little other than food and clothing; and that the 45 rubles a month would buy food, a bare minimum, and sufficient clothing to clothe one individual.
Mr. JENNER. Liberally? Or just enough to get along?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just enough to get going on--in both cases. And that his impression-the impression he left with me was that a person needed little, else as far as entertainment and so on was concerned, these things were held by the State so that--uh--to get the families out of these cramped quarters, that everything--and constant entertainment in some form--athletics, or occasional motion pictures, different kinds of stage presentations--were held nightly away from the home, so that the families could get out of the cramped quarters and wouldn't feel this.
Mr. JENNER. It was all designed, in part at least, with that objective in mind---of getting people out of their cramped quarters or room apartments, into theatres and concert halls and athletic events?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And we discussed travel for the average Russian citizen--which is nonexistent. A person that----
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us things he said to you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to the best of my memory I am telling you.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability? You are not rationalizing or speculating from things you have read in works published with respect to life in Russia?
Mr. JENNER. You are trying to do your best to tell us what he said?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. He said that for the average worker or citizen in Russia that travel' was nonexistent; that a person that grew up in Minsk would probably spend his whole life without venturing far from the city. That living areas like the apartment he lived in were built around factories so that a person in a job like his, he wouldn't even probably know what was across on the other side of the city. And this is just about the end, at least, to my easy recollection of the things that we discussed.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the context of 180 rubles a month earned by Marina and 45 rubles a month earned by Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember any specific comments that he made about that. The only thing I remember in this regard w. as that he did mention at one time that Marina had a higher education than he had and that--uh--I don't believe I ever heard him say anything else about it.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you didn't raise the question?
Mr. JENNER. Did he say that Marina, after they married, that Marina worked as well as he?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember whether she worked after they were married or not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about custom and habit in Russia that wives worked?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; he mentioned that most wives--most women do work. He didn't, as I remember, go into any specifics about it. I don't remember much being said about it other than that most women do work---or, I should say, they are encouraged to work.
Mr. JENNER. Did he state or did he imply, do you have any impression on his reaction toward. this life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. He---uh---oh, he indicated throughout our discussions that he was dissatisfied with the life of the average Russian citizen; that they didn't have any freedoms, as we think of freedom, in other words, to go get in our car and go where we want to, do what we want to, or say what we want to; that, generally speaking, they did not have this privilege as we enjoy it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any privileges or any activities on his part that were different from--that is, that were accorded him--that were different from those accorded Russian people or foreigners, let us say, in Russia, having circumstances or work comparable to his? This is, was he treated or


accorded benefits different from or in addition to those which would normally have been accorded him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I think he felt like that the situation that the Russians put him into---in other words, the environment they put him into---was less than he had anticipated. This is only an impression now.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know.
Mr. TAYLOR. It was never--we never discussed this. But I always felt like that he was disappointed that they put him in a factory forming sheet metal and didn't give him what he felt was something important to do.
Mr. JENNER. That is, did you have the impression, in your contacts with him discussing his life in Russia, that he had an opinion of himself that was such that he felt he was not being accorded that which at least his ambitions and desires, he thought, warranted?
Mr. TAYLOR. I think that's true. He didn't--uh--I think he expected, as a former American, to be treated as something special--as though he were a rarity, because he had left this country and gone there, and that they would have treated him with a red carpet, so to speak. Of course, he was very disappointed what they actually gave him.
Mr. JENNER. And your statement that he was very disappointed in what he actually received--did he say that to you? Was it more than just an impression on your part?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he never said that. It's only an impression.
Mr. JENNER. Is it a distinct impression or----
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. It's a very distinct impression.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. That this is one of the reasons why I would never have asked him, as you asked me, what he felt about his wife making more money. He seemed very depressed about how the Russians had treated him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to you to be sensitive on this score--that he----
Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that he would be sensitive if I had broached the subject.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, have you exhausted your recollection as to what he told you of his life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any independent activity on his part-- that is, activity of his distinct from Marina--such as, for example, going hunting?
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the use of firearms for hunting ever discussed by him with you?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; nor was the subject, which I think you were leading up to, of the Russians' right or lack of right to own firearms discussed.
Mr. JENNER. The subject of firearms was never discussed?
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss at any time with you, or did you hear him discuss it in your presence, his effort to return to the United States and any difficulties, if he had any, in that connection?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe he said that--uh--he did have difficulties and that it took him--uh--about a year to get permission to come to this--return to this country with his wife.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about whether he undertook that effort prior to his marriage had commenced it prior to the time he had married Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; he indicated that he commenced it after his marriage.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you at any time, or was the subject discussed in your presence, as to the courtship between Marina and himself?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; or, if it was, I have no recollection of it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, of any illnesses on his part while he was in Russia?
Mr. JENNER. All right. Have we now exhausted his discussions with you with respect to the subject of his life in Russia?


Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, the subject of why he sought to return to the United States?
Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, only that he was unhappy with both the way of life in Russia and--uh--the place that he had been given in it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, the subject of Marina's inclinations in that connection--any desire on her part to come to the United States?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; there was never--uh--any discussion as to her feelings about coming to this country at all. I don't think, in any case, that they were important to him.
Mr. JENNER. At least, they weren't discussed in your presence and not with you directly?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there discussed in your presence, or did he discuss directly with you, their route back to the United States?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I believe the only thing that he ever mentioned about that was that the American Embassy, I presume in Moscow, loaned him the money to return.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, his reaction to the Russian system, as such, distinguished now from what was accorded him which you have related--more in the area of the political area--the Communist system, as such, the political philosophy, as distinguished from the U.S.S.R. as a country or government?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, everything that we discussed, of course and the things I have related--illustrate the distinction between the two political governments---such as, services that a Russian citizen obtains free and the housing, various rights or lack of them that the Russian citizen had. We did not discuss the system otherwise except perhaps some impressions he had about government officials living somewhat better than the average citizen lived.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, the Communist Party as distinct from the Russian Government?
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, his political philosophy?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say that at the point in his life which I knew him, he was somewhat confused about philosophy. He did not seem particularly happy with the form of government we have in this country or with government as it exists anywhere. I think he had been--and perhaps still was--a partisan of a Communist form of government, but, as it is practiced in Russia, I don't think that he liked it at all.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What else was discussed on this--was it a Sunday afternoon?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was a discussion about Lee's job---which I believe he had just left the Friday before. He was--he terminated his employment. don't know if he was fired or how he became severed from it--and he wanted to move to Dallas. And there was some discussion about the move and it taking place, and so on, and I cannot be sure now whether it was this Sunday or the following Sunday that Marina came to stay in my home.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mr. TAYLOR. I tend to think that it was that Sunday afternoon that we invited her to come and stay with us, and I believe Lee said----
Mr. JENNER. In the event he went to Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; to actually come and stay with us from that Sunday evening forward.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--during their move. Just to give her a place to live until he was able to find a job here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. It was, therefore, your impression, I take it, that your invitation was not tendered because of any difficulties between Marina and Lee, but rather to afford her a place to live temporarily until Lee became established elsewhere?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In Dallas.


Mr. JENNER. I mean, my statement is a fair statement of the then atmosphere?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I, at that time, was not aware that there was any marital disharmony.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'm going to ask you that question as of that afternoon. What was your impression, if you have any, of the relationship between Marina and Lee as of that time?
Mr. TAYLOR. As of that time, it appeared to be normal--normal man and wife relationship. I think it was somewhat strained by a language barrier. Some of the people present, not speaking Russian, and she did not speak any English, and this left somewhat of a burden upon the others present to interpret the conversations from one side or the other. But I was not able to sense any disharmony at that point.
Mr. JENNER. Now, by the time you had arrived at their home, had you had some notion of why you were invited to be present on that occasion?
Mr. TAYLOR. Only to meet them and I hoped to learn something about Russia and how people live there.
Mr. JENNER. All right. How long did this meeting take place?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I believe from about 4 until 7.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to eat during that period of time?
Mr. JENNER. Have you now related all the subjects discussed at that meeting having a relation to the Oswalds and any part you would play in their lives?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, as I mentioned before, it was difficult to remember whether it was that Sunday or the following Sunday, but I tend to think that that Sunday evening, Marina and her daughter, June, returned to Dallas with my wife and I and that Lee stayed----
Mr. JENNER. That was at the time of that first meeting?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; at the time of the first meeting--at the end of it. And that Lee stayed in Fort Worth that night and that he and Mrs. Hall, some time the next day, moved their bigger belongings--more bulky ones other than clothing--to Mrs. Hall's garage and stored them there. And then he came to Dallas and--uh--took up residence at the Y.M.C.A. here.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. Now, do you know, as a matter of fact, that he did take residence at the Y.M.C.A.?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long did Marina remain with you and your wife in your home, commencing that Sunday night?
Mr. TAYLOR. Approximately 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. And she brought with her what--in addition to her child, of course?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just clothing.
Mr. JENNER. And you were residing then where?
Mr. TAYLOR. At 3519 Fairmount.
Mr. JENNER. In what town?
Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas, Tex. I believe it was apartment 12.
Mr. JENNER. You say you spoke no Russian, you understood no Russian, your then wife understood a few words of Russian but had difficulty with the language?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. How did you get along about your social intercourse between Marina on the one hand, yourself and your wife on the other, during this week?
Mr. TAYLOR. My social intercourse with Marina during this period was somewhat limited. She and my wife at that time, Alex, were able to--uh--not to discuss anything, but were able to communicate sufficiently to get along and perhaps even enjoy each other's company to some extent. My son and their daughter, June, are within a month of the same age; so that helped the barrier of language somewhat in their being able to play with the children and the children play with each other.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have any visitors during that week--or did you say 2 weeks?
Mr. TAYLOR. Two weeks.


Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, on one occasion I remember specifically, and probably Mr. De Mohrenschildt, and George Bouhe came one time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything from Lee Oswald during that 2-week period?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first hear from him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I think on either the following Monday or Tuesday.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the next day or the day after the Sunday meeting?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe I, or someone, talked to Lee on the telephone and I believe I went down and got him. I went down to the Y.M.C.A.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. Here in Dallas, on two or three occasions, and picked him up.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go in to pick him up or did you find him in front of the building?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I think I did both. I remember specifically once going into the desk and asking for him and then telephoning him to come down.
Mr. JENNER. You asked for him, you were given a room number, you used the house telephone to call him? Is that a fair statement?
Mr. TAYLOR. Something--I just remember that I went in and asked for him and he came down. I did not go up to the room, but I do remember going in and his coming down to meet me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I think it might be helpful, now, if you would continue from the point after your 3-hour visit in the Oswald apartment late Sunday afternoon and early evening. You then took Marina to your home. Your recollection is that the next contact you had was that there had been a telephone call by Lee to your home. As a result of that call, you went to the Y.M.C.A. is that correct?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Now, why did you go to the Y.M.C.A. as a result of that call?
Mr. TAYLOR. To pick him up so that he might visit his wife. (Recess: 3:35 p.m. Reconvened: 3:50 p.m.)
Mr. JENNER. Now where were we?
Mr. TAYLOR. Let's see, I believe I was talking, awhile back, about people that had seen them during this period. and I mentioned that there was only George Bouhe and Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And George Bouhe came by just, I think, to be sociable, and to see if he could give Lee any suggestions on where he might look for a job. And at some point during this period----
Mr. JENNER. This is the 2-week period?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the 2-week period--Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and picked Marina up.
Mr. JENNER. At your home?
Mr. TAYLOR. At my home and took her, I believe, to a dentist.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how do you know this?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it sticks in my mind because while the two of them were gone, Marina's little girl, June. cried almost constantly because, I guess, it was the first time she had ever been away from her mother--and she cried constantly and wouldn't even eat for the whole period Marina was gone which, as I remember it, was the better part of I day. I think she had two teeth pulled, or something. I'm not sure about what was done other than that she did go to see, I think a charity--went to a charity dental clinic.
Mr. JENNER. And it is your distinct recollection that she was taken to the charity dental clinic by your step-mother-in-law?
Mr. TAYLOR. My mother-in-law. There's no "step" to me. Just mother-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. By your mother-in-law.
Mr. TAYLOR. That would be a stepmother to my wife.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you ever take Marina to a dental clinic?
Mr. TAYLOR. No---not to my recollection. I didn't take uh--Marina anyplace that I remember.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the Baylor University College of Dentistry?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I know that there is one here; that they have one out at Baylor Hospital--but I'm not familiar with it otherwise.


Mr. JENNER. Would you fix the period when Marina was in your home first, the month?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it was in September of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. And all of the stay was in the month of September, and none of it in the month of October 1962?
Mr. TAYLOR. My memory, as I say, is not clear back that far. But--uh--I personally have no recollection of dates involved. Even when I was first interviewed, I believed it to he during this period we are talking about. It was pinpointed for me one time that it would--that Lee left his job on or about the 6th of September and that, just going from that date, why it would, presuming, as I remember, that that was a Friday in 1962, I believe that they came she came to my home for a period of 2 weeks after that. I don't believe that it lasted any longer.
Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have occasion in calling from your home or place of business to call Lee Oswald at the Y.M.C.A.?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe I--uh--I may not have personally. I may have dialed the telephone for Marina and asked for him so that she could talk to him.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you ever seek to reach him by telephone either for yourself or for Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't specifically remember an occasion doing that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any occasion when you made a telephone call to the Y.M.C.A. in an effort to reach Lee Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; not specifically. I could only say that it is probable that I would have.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. Taylor ever made an effort to do so?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't recall her having made an effort to do that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll put it this way: Did you ever have any trouble finding Lee Oswald, whether by telephone or direct visit, at the Y.M.C.A.?
Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any trouble locating him at the Y.M.C.A. when I made an attempt to. I never remember any difficulty in contacting him there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I gather that Marina's visit at your home terminated at the end of about 2 weeks. Did anything occur during those 2 weeks about which we have not talked that arrested your attention?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--nothing, outside of possibly some insights into Marina--I mean, her personality and how she acted. There was nothing that arrested my attention.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that.
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--she personally seemed to be person of a number of fine qualities--an excellent mother, possibly even doting too much upon her child, and a clean person in her habits and, as best she could, in her dress. And she seemed very intelligent and interested in learning all that she could about her new environment.
Mr. JENNER. You don't mean her new environment in your home---you mean----?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm talking about in this country.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. And I do have one recollection pursuant to this about her desire to learn English.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that. Go ahead.
Mr. TAYLOR. During the period that I knew them, on several occasions, this subject came up. And Lee was in opposition to her learning English--not---he would not come out, at least, never did around me, and say that he didn't want her to learn English but--uh--he was or did appear to be in opposition to it. And George De Mohrenschildt prepared for Marina several lessons in English--and I believe that Lee later took them away from her.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you give me as much on this series of incidents, with respect to her learning the English language and becoming more proficient in its use. First--as to what you based your present comments upon, by way of what occurred, that you recall? Something occurred to her to lead you to state as you have stated in terms of conclusion that Lee did not wish her to learn the English language. And, secondly, that Lee took from her the


English language lessons. I assume they were on sheets of paper. Is that correct?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That George Bouhe had prepared for her?
Mr. TAYLOR. George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that George De Mohrenschildt had prepared for her?
Mr. TAYLOR. I remember asking Lee about his opposition to it on one occasion and as I remember he told me that--uh--or brushed it aside by saying, "It isn't necessary at this time"--something like that. And then, of course, he did take the lessons from her.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--because, as I remember, this was the first time that I had knowledge of her being beaten by him.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that.
Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember it, shortly after they moved, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt----
Mr. JENNER. They moved where? Into your home or from your home?
Mr. TAYLOR. Moved into their apartment here in Dallas--the first apartment they had, on Elsbeth.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and told us that she had seen Marina and that she had a black eye, I believe, and was crying and said that she and Lee had had a fight over the lessons and they had been taken from her, and----
Mr. JENNER. Lee had struck her?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; that Lee had struck her.
Mr. JENNER. She said that to you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; this is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt now. This is not Marina that said that.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that.
Mr. TAYLOR. And--not pursuant to that, but while we are speaking of their marital troubles, I seem to remember on one occasion where Marina left--I think this was somewhat later, probably in November----
Mr. JENNER. Left the home?
Mr. TAYLOR. Left Lee and went to stay with someone--I don't remember who. It may have been this woman in Irving that she was living with.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine?
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Paine. I do not know where she went except that I was told that she had left him.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Anything else that comes to your mind with respect to their relations, one with the other, and whatnot, covering this 2-week span while she was a visitor in your home?
Mr. TAYLOR. The only other observation I would make is that---again, it has to do with relationship between them--and that is that to my knowledge at all the meetings between them that I was present at during this 2-week period, there was no personal communication between them--at least, that I was able to determine. Of course, I couldn't understand them when they spoke to each other in Russian. But, certainly, for this length of time, you would think that a man and woman married would want some time alone together. They could have we had parks nearby, within one door of us was a big park where they could have taken walks and been alone together and talked--but this never happened.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mr. TAYLOR. It was just like two friends meeting. There was nothing intimate or personal between them at these meetings.
Mr. JENNER. No expressions that you could understand or, at least, conduct between them that would lead you to believe there were evidences of love and affection?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. It was more platonic--a friendship relationship?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on more than one occasion in your home during the 2-week period?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; on several occasions.


Mr. JENNER. And on these occasions, was it always that he called and asked to come over, or were you told that he was coming and there had been a previous arrangement--or what do you recall as to that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I think perhaps once or twice Marina instigated their meetings, would call him and he would then come.
Mr. JENNER. Was he always transported, or did he come----
Mr. TAYLOR. I think he may even have come by himself once or twice. We were not far from downtown and had good bus service and I remember at least one occasion where he rode the bus. He left late one evening and rode the bus back to town.
Mr. JENNER. Any questions, at any time during the 2-week period or at any other time, about his ability to operate an automobile on the streets?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was discussion about this possibly on two or three occasions.
Mr. JENNER. With him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember him being present or having knowledge of them. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt tried to get me to teach him how to drive, and I never did.
Mr. JENNER. You never got around to it?
Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any time or inclination to use my automobile to teach a beginner how to drive.
Mr. JENNER. Your understanding was from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that he was unable to operate an automobile?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. But you had no direct conversation with him on the subject?
Mr. JENNER. Or with Marina through an interpreter?
Mr. JENNER. Did this conversation with respect to inducing you to attempt to teach him to drive a car occur in the presence of Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt then, in Russian, spoke to Marina on the subject in your presence?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't remember the details such as that on the various discussions we had. I just remember that on several occasions they did try to get me to do it, and I refused.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive or was there paid or offered to be paid to you anything by them, Lee or Marina, financially for this generosity on your part of keeping her in your home for that 2-week period?
Mr. JENNER. You never received anything?
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive anything from anybody other than Marina and Lee Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. You never received anything from anybody at all?
Mr. JENNER. The answer is "Yes; you have never received anything from anybody."
Mr. TAYLOR. I never received any financial reimbursement for any of the expenditures that I made on their behalf.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the 2-week period concluded and was there something that occurred in particular that brought about the termination of that 2-week guest period?
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Hall--I believe you said Elena--had an automobile accident and I think Marina went to Fort Worth and lived in Mrs. Hall's home so that she might help Mrs. Hall. Mrs. Hall was at least semibedridden. She was certainly not able to get up and cook herself food and so on.
Mr. JENNER. Was she living alone at that time?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes she was.
Mr. JENNER. That is, Mrs. Hall?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the only reason I remember about Mr. Hall was by


associating it with either Midland or Abilene--I don't remember which one. It was west Texas anyway. And he was living there at the time.
Mr. JENNER. And her leaving your home then--there was no cause or reason for it other than that, as you now understand or from your memory of it, that Mrs. Hall had been involved in an automobile accident, was partially bedridden, was having some difficulty in any respect; she was then by herself because her husband was in west Texas and at that time they were, as you understood, separated?
Mr. TAYLOR. Or divorced. I don't remember which.
Mr. JENNER. And Marina went to Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth to help care for Mrs. Hall?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that would take us to about the last week in November-- somewhere in that area--I mean September--is that correct?
Mr. TAYLOR. September; I should think; yes. Toward the end of September, and possibly even early in October--again, due to time, this is all quite vague---I had Lee with me. I don't remember where I got him. But Lee and my wife, Alex, and I went to Fort Worth and picked up Marina and their child and all of the Oswald's belongings that had. through this period, been stored at Mrs. Hall's, and brought them to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you went to Mrs. Hall's--is that where you went?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached the Halls' you picked up the Oswalds' house paraphernalia, clothing and other things----
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or whatever had been stored at the Halls' you picked up?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your recollection doesn't serve you at the moment to be more specific as to how this came about?
Mr. TAYLOR. It doesn't. Not at all. I can't even remember now where I got Lee that day. I wish I could--for several reasons you are probably aware of. But I don't remember. And, at any rate, we went to Fort Worth----
Mr. JENNER, Excuse me. Do you recall being interviewed by two agents of the FBI on the 29th of January 1964.
Mr. TAYLOR. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection did you tell those agents at that time that you picked up Lee Oswald at the curb of the YMCA in Dallas and drove to Fort Worth to the Hall residence where Marina was living?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it is refreshing to my memory, but I would like to say this about it. That in the course of several interviews by the FBI, the Secret Service, and the Dallas Police Department which have occurred, and between these and since the last one, I have naturally tried to remember all that I can concerning the areas in which I was vague in my memory. And at my last interview concerning this one particular item, it occurred to me that at one time once I went to--uh--and looked for a place where Lee was staying in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas and tried to locate him. I remember going and trying to locate him. I don't remember whether I found him or whether I did not. I know that--uh----
Mr. JENNER. Can you pinpoint this as to time?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; that's the trouble. I can't pinpoint it as to time. I just remember some vague directions that----
Mr. JENNER. What about year--1962?
Mr. TAYLOR. 1962 definitely.
Mr. JENNER. And it had to be some time after----
Mr. TAYLOR. It had to be some time between September and November 15, because my wife and I separated after that. Anyway, at some point during this period, I do remember going to an area in Oak Cliff and looking for Lee. I don't think I found him--at least, not on the occasion I remember. All I had was some vague directions that----


Mr. JENNER. From whom?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, directly from my wife but indirectly I believe that came to her from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. Were you requested to seek to locate him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't know why I was trying to locate him. I don't remember anything except I remember driving around one area one evening looking for a residence of his on some vague directions. As I say, I don't even remember if it was a residence of the whole family or just of Lee. I went back to this area within the last few weeks and located a building that stuck--or I had a recollection of one building in this area and I went back to the area and found it and gave that information to Agent Yelchek of the FBI. I don't know what he----
Mr. JENNER. What location was that?
Mr. TAYLOR. I gave him the exact street address---but it seems to me like it was---well, the name of the apartment building was the Coz-I-Eight [spelling] C-o-z---I---E-i-g-h-t--apartments, and I thing they were located at 1404 North Beckley. But the address I could be off on; but the name I do remember.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of a building was this?
Mr. TAYLOR. An apartment building.
Mr. JENNER. Brick?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A more substantial-type thing than you bad seen the Oswalds occupy prior thereto?
Mr. TAYLOR. Repeat, please.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a building of a substantiality higher caliber than the Elsbeth Street home, for example?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say it was in the same class.
Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise in which Lee Oswald called you to ask you to assist in moving him and Marina to an apartment in Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure how definitely that was--I'm not definitely sure how that was instigated. I'm not sure. It was either Lee directly or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that asked for this assistance in moving. Whichever it was, my wife and I got together with Lee, I believe, on a Sunday afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pick him up or did he come to your home?
Mr. TAYLOR. I cannot remember.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have anything with him in the way of luggage?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he did.
Mr. JENNER. Describe it, please.
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large one, and an old leather suitcase. And that he had these two containers of personal belongings, and we went to Fort Worth and added Marina's to this--Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they were. and brought it all to the Elsbeth Street apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did you pile all of this clothing and household furniture, to the extent they had any, in the rear of your automobile and haul it back to Dallas? Or how did you do this?
Mr. TAYLOR. I rented a trailer in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you rent that trailer? Where was the place located from which you rented the trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. I do not remember. I have even been to this place recently again with Mr. Yelchek of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And we went over one evening and pinpointed the location of that service station where I had rented a small covered trailer and----
Mr. JENNER. A small covered trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was covered.
Mr. JENNER. And give me the location of the place you pinpointed with Mr. Yelchek.
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember an address on the service station. It is a mile or so north of Texas Christian University in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Does University Drive sort of refresh your recollection?
Mr. TAYLOR. It--uh--could be University; yeah. However, it was not University Drive. It was another street which I just can't remember. This


service station was west of the South Freeway, as I say, about a mile north of Texas Christian University.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mr. TAYLOR. I did originally think that it was on University but, upon investigation of the--visual investigation, actually being there one evening, why we did locate it and it was in another place.
Mr. JENNER. The place that you located when Mr. Yelchek accompanied you was different from the one that you had remembered when you first talked to the FBI?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, it, in my mind, is a positive identification. There is no question about it.
Mr. JENNER. Your more recent one is?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; when Mr. Yelchek and I went. I was able to positively identify the location. I might add, after having talked to him since then, that the owner says that---or there is no record of the rental at this location. There seems to be a set of duplicate books involved---one for themselves and one for the National Trailer Co., whichever one it was. A little fraud, or something, involved in that. We didn't get too involved in it--just to know that there wasn't any record.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name J. H. Pendley familiar to you?
Mr. JENNER. Do you have your driver's license with you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you look at it and tell me what the number of it is?
Mr. TAYLOR. 1606670. And that's my memory that's talking. (Witness then takes the driver's license from billfold and hands to Mr. Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. 1606670. (Hands license back to witness.) Did the people from whom you rented the trailer take your driver's license number on that occasion?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember. It's common--in fact, it's normal procedure to take the license number--driver's license and vehicle license.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you had that number?
Mr. TAYLOR. It's permanent in the State of Texas.
Mr. JENNER. So you had it on this occasion--the same number?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What's the practice in Texas in respect to license numbers? Do you get a new one every year, or do you get a sticker--or what?
Mr. TAYLOR. Vehicle?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. They change from year to year.
Mr. JENNER. They change the number?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they do.
Mr. JENNER. Do you, by any chance, remember your license number in 1962?
Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall having a license number with the digit letters "E" and "Y"?
Mr. TAYLOR. I would never have a license tag with that number.
Mr. JENNER. With those prefix letters?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; as long as I lived in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Why is that, sir?
Mr. TAYLOR. The "E" prefix--the prefixes beginning with "E" are for Tarrant County, of which Fort Worth is a part.
Mr. JENNER. And you being in Dallas County, your initials are what--your prefixes?
Mr. TAYLOR. In Dallas County they would be some of the "M" prefix, all of the "N" and "P".
Mr. JENNER. "N" as in "Nancy," "P" as in "Paul"?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and some of the "M" as in "Mary."
Mr. JENNER. But it would be a combination of two or more of those three letters?


Mr. TAYLOR. It would be a combination of two letters beginning with the three that we have just been discussing.
Mr. JENNER. From one of the three we have just discussed?
Mr. TAYLOR. Beginning with either an M an N, or a P. All of the N's and P's--like NA or NS or PA or PZ.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You piled all this material in the covered trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This was on a Sunday, as I recall your saying?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did you return that trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. The same day.
Mr. JENNER. And you went from Mrs. Hall's to where with the loaded trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. I took the loaded trailer to an apartment on Elsbeth Street in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And then what happened when you got there?
Mr. TAYLOR. We unloaded it and I returned the trailer to the service station where I had rented it in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for the renting of that trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember for sure.
Mr. JENNER. Well, somebody paid for it. It wasn't just given to you, was it?
Mr. TAYLOR. No. It wasn't given to me. I do not remember, however, who paid for it. I--it comes to mind that Lee probably did--but I can't say specifically that Lee did it.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you to the service station to rent the trailer in the first instance?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection does not serve you now as to whether upon its return, he paid for it or you did?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; payment would be in advance.
Mr. JENNER. That would be an out-of-pocket payment. Would you say your recollection is, in view of your haziness about it, that you did not pay for it?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You returned the trailer. Did you help put the household furniture and whatnot into their apartment?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do that before you returned the trailer?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. After you returned the trailer, did you return to their apartment that same afternoon or evening?
Mr. TAYLOR. I can't be absolutely sure whether I returned that evening or not. I'm not sure whether they went back with us or not. I don't----
Mr. JENNER. Back with you where?
Mr. TAYLOR. Back to Fort Worth to return the trailer. I don't know if they took that ride over there with us or not.
Mr. JENNER. That would be how much of a ride?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--round trip it would take probably I hour and 15 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the Elsbeth Street address to Fort Worth--just approximately?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, to the place in Fort Worth where the trailer was rented, I would say, it was about 30 miles. And, in case you're wondering about the time, it's all a turnpike and expressway trip.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you see the Oswalds, or either of them, after that time?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Next, and under what circumstances?
Mr. TAYLOR. Sometime after the move I----am not, again, can't be specific about dates--my memory isn't that good--I visited them by myself, and I believe that the purpose of that visit specifically was to return a manuscript, or at least it's been called that, certainly just a collection of notes Lee had that he had compiled .on his visit to Fort Worth--I mean, on his visit to Russia.
Mr. JENNER. I Show you in a volume which has a sticker on its front


entitled "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection with the Assassination of the President," which has been supplied to me by the Dallas city police, and I direct your attention to pages 148 to 157. And I ask you whether those pages are familiar to you as being either all or a part of what you now describe as notes prepared by Lee Oswald on his trip or life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. Can we go off the record and let me look at this a minute? It will be a minute, because I only looked at part of this thing. (Witness peruses document page by page.)
Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages, which arc a photostatic copy of what purports to be a draft by Lee Harvey Oswald of various stages of his life, including time in Russia, in the Marines, the period in New Orleans, and what not?
Mr. TAYLOR. Those are not the same pages of which I was speaking.
Mr. JENNER. I should advise you, Mr. Taylor, that they are incomplete. That is, we are advised that there are other sheets which we don't happen to have. I could ask you this: Was it on the type of paper which is indicated in these photostats--that is, lined, 8 by 11 1/2 sheets?
Mr. JENNER. It was not?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Was it ringed notebook paper?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Lee Oswald's handwriting?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I am not.
Mr. JENNER. Was this material you saw in his handwriting or was it typed?
Mr. TAYLOR. I would not know--this material? I'm sorry. I was thinking about----
Mr. JENNER. The material that you saw, was that in his handwriting?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed.
Mr. JENNER. It was typed?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was typed---on white paper.
Mr. JENNER. Plain white paper?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you because you had mentioned something he showed you. Now, would you please go on?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and the occasion for this visit that I was talking about was to return what has been discussed as a manuscript. And I had had this in my possession from the time Marina had been staying with us. I had asked him for it then and intended to read it. I did not ever read it fully. I read a page or two of it---of which my recollection is very dim. I remember almost nothing about it except that it seemed to be in a narrative style and was about his experiences in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to spelling, grammer, or content? Was it the writing of an educated man, or was it sophomoric in character, or do you have any impression about it?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't have any impression--having read so little of it such a long time ago.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you went to see him to return this manuscript?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where was he living?
Mr. TAYLOR. He was still living on Elsbeth.
Mr. JENNER. And you reached their apartment, did you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was she home?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, she was.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with them on that occasion?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I did. I was treated as a very welcome guest. I assumed, at the time, that the reason for that was I was probably the only guest they had had--or at least certainly that guests were unusual, and that I was very welcome. As a matter of fact, almost immediately after I arrived, Marina left and walked some two and a half blocks to a doughnut shop and bought some doughnuts and returned.


And we just talked briefly that evening---not about anything in great detail. I stayed--I didn't go to stay a long time, just to return the manuscript, but due to the hospitality that was extended, I stayed perhaps an hour or 2 hours.
Mr. JENNER. How did they appear, in their relations one to the other, on this occasion?
Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that--uh--they were getting along well. When I arrived, the baby was asleep and they were both in the kitchen. He was sitting at a table, I think, reading and---
Mr. JENNER. A book or a newspaper?
Mr. TAYLOR. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. Reading a book or a newspaper?
Mr. TAYLOR. A book, I believe. I think he checked out a number of books from the library.
Mr. JENNER. Did you understand him to be an avid reader?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe what character of books he was reading?
Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember, they were primarily political philosophy. I don't remember any titles specifically. I think he did have a copy of--uh--at one time, of something by Karl Marx. I don't remember the title or name of the book.
Mr. JENNER. "Das Kapital"?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm aware of that title--but I just don't remember what he had a copy of.
Mr. JENNER. But they were political.
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Books on political philosophy, governmental structure, and philosophy?
Mr. TAYLOR. I would say primarily on philosophy.
Mr. JENNER. Philosophy or theories of government?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You had, I gather, a reasonably pleasant visit on this particular evening?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them again after that?
Mr. TAYLOR. I did not see both of them again after that. Sometime much later----
Mr. JENNER. This is much later but prior to November 15, 1962?
Mr. TAYLOR. Prior to November of 1963? Is that what you meant?
Mr. JENNER. I had concluded you were speaking of prior to----
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I did make contact with them after my separation--if that's what you are alluding to. In the spring of 1963 I dropped by this Elsbeth apartment building and, finding no one at home, I asked someone who was sitting in the courtyard about them. And I think he was the manager. And he told me that they had moved and he told me where they had moved.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. TAYLOR. He told me that they had moved into a small apartment about a block away. And I went there.
Mr. JENNER. What street was that?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. What town?
Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas--about a block away from. Elsbeth. And, anyway, I went to this--where I had been directed, and found Marina at home.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee at home?
Mr. TAYLOR. No, he was not.
Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was this?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you go there?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just for a friendly visit. Marina was at home. She---her English had improved enough for her to get across to me a few ideas. She said that Lee was not home, that--uh--I don't remember her saying where he was. She said that he was attending


night school, Crozier Tech here in Dallas---which is our technical high school and----
Mr. JENNER. Was this occasion in the early evening?
Mr. TAYLOR. I think it was in midafternoon.
Mr. JENNER. Midafternoon?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you certain about that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had.
Mr. JENNER. Was that what led you to suggest that it was in the afternoon rather than the early evening? It doesn't get dark here in Texas--and this was what? The spring, did you say?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER, 1963?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. No; you are trying to say that it may have been early evening, although it was still quite light. My memory tells me that it was midafternoon.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Was anything said about the fact he was working?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember her saying what he was doing or if he was working at all.
Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have used the term "working"--whether he was employed?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I don't think at that time he was. Again, it's just a very, very vague recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Was she able to communicate with you, or you to understand, as to what studies he was pursuing at Crozier Tech?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't believe that I remember what he was studying at all at Crozier Tech. I did inform Marina of my impending divorce and--uh--in other words, telling her that Mrs. Taylor and I were no longer living together and we had separated. Uh--and she said that she had been ill, I believe. And--uh--she invited me to come back in the evening and I left. And I would say the whole interview with her took certainly no longer than 10 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. And this, as you recall, was in 1963?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said that his attendance at Crozier Tech was in the night school?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was in the night school.
Mr. JENNER. But your visit was in the midafternoon?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate .to you that he was then at Crozier Tech or that he would be at Crozier Tech that evening?
Mr. TAYLOR. She, I don't believe, indicated either thing to me. I don't--I can't honestly say that she indicated where Lee was at the time. She may have said he was at work or not at work.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection to know whether she said he was employed and working and had work at that time?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--the general impression is that he was not working, but it distinct enough to make a flat statement upon.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you ever saw Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you ever saw Lee?
Mr. TAYLOR. The previous occasion I have mentioned where I went to visit in the evening to return the manuscript. That was the last time I saw Lee.
Mr. JENNER. That was prior to November 15, 1962?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I don't know why he wanted that manuscript at that time. I know that he wanted it very badly.
Mr. JENNER. He called you for it?


Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--yes, he did. On two occasions. And, on the second one, I think I got in the car and took it to him.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. He called you on the telephone?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, before I go to the De Mohrenschildts, I'd like you now to give me now that we've had this discussion between us--your impressions of the Oswalds individually. (Off-the-record discussion followed.)
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--my impression, first, of Lee would be that--uh--he was, first, rather confused, particularly, politically. He wanted to be well-informed and an idealist. He considered himself well-informed. I don't think he was even very knowledgeable on the subject. In our conversations, when I would take exception to something he had said and argue a point with him, why, superficially, he could make a statement or support an idea that is commonly regarded in some areas as being true--such as, well, the Republican and Democratic Parties have different ideas on how things should be done just as democracy and communism have.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. And he could present Communist ideas to a point that it was very superficial--and when you started digging down in to the meat of the subject, why, Lee was through. He seemed to have perhaps read quite a bit of political philosophy, but when it came to really understanding it, he couldn't present a very good case for it.
Mr. JENNER. Was he emotional in that respect?
Mr. TAYLOR. He would--uh--not any more so than anyone else you would get into a political discussion with. This seems to be a fairly emotional subject on everyone's part.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard him as a vicious type as a man who would think in terms of inflicting bodily harm if frustrated?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, I thought of him as a man who--uh--would kick a dog or beat his wife, but--uh--I was never afraid of him because I never felt like that he would attack anything his equal.
Mr. JENNER. You were a bigger man than he, weren't you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, even a person even a grown human being, any male, I wouldn't ever have expected this of him.
Mr. JENNER. Regardless of size?
Mr. TAYLOR. Regardless of size. Anything that could present a forceful retaliation, why, I would not have expected him to----
Mr. JENNER. Was he mild-mannered, or----
Mr. TAYLOR. He tended to be, in temperament, a little hot; but there was a very definite limit to it even suggesting some inner cowardness.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have occasion to observe Marina When she had any black and blue marks on her person?
Mr. TAYLOR. [Pausing before reply.] No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the Kennedys or the Connallys?
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention the administration of either of them or their policies?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--no; I'm not even sure that Connally was in office at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he was Secretary of the Navy.
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. I was thinking of him as Governor. I never heard Lee take exception to Government officials; take exception to Government policies--definitely----
Mr. JENNER. We all do this sometimes but never to the human being that might formulate them. Just to the policy itself. Did he ever mention Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein in your presence?
Mr. JENNER. Was he a drinking man?
Mr. JENNER. Give me as best you can now recall--did you ever loan him any money or give him any money?


Mr. JENNER. But you did things for him. You made expenditures in their behalf?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pay for any of the dental cure administered to Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, that expense was borne by the county.
Mr. JENNER. At least, you never assumed any of it?
Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the occasions in which you either expended funds in their behalf or for them or accorded them help in your home, or otherwise were charitable to them?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that he was employed here in Dallas by Jaggars- Chiles-Stovall?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You ever pick him up there?
Mr. JENNER. What did you ever observe with respect to his cleanliness, his personal habits in that respect?
Mr. TAYLOR. That his clothes, generally, appeared to have been worn several days, and it was always in question as to when he had taken his last bath. He was not a clean person, either in clothing or personally.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any contrast in that respect between himself and Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She was fastidious, was she?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very much so. And the same thing applied to her treatment of the child. It never had a damp diaper on if she knew about it. It just had to be damp---it didn't have to be wet.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him dressed up in the sense that you and I are dressed now--in a business coat?
Mr. TAYLOR. No. To my knowledge, he did not own any clothing that would be acceptable in what we would call business circles, say.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with a tie on?
Mr. JENNER. Give me your judgment as to the relationship between Lee Oswald and George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it's difficult to assess their relationship because there probably was more to it than I ever saw. But what little of it I saw, they were quite in opposition to each other--such as the lessons in English for Marina. But I certainly think that they must have been closer than they appeared or the De Mohrenschildts wouldn't have been so active in seeing that they got along well.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion as to whether George De Mohrenschildt exercised any influence over Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there seemed to be a great deal of influence there. It would be my guess that De Mohrenschildt encouraged him to move to Dallas, and he suggested a number of things to Lee---such as where to look for jobs. And it seems like whatever his suggestions were, Lee grabbed them and took them--whether it was what time to go to bed or where to stay or to let Marina stay with us while he stayed at the YMCA.
Mr. JENNER. And he tended to follow De Mohrenschildt's suggestions?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER, I Want to finish with the Oswalds before I get to the De Mohrenschildts. (Looking through papers.) Tell me, chronologically, about the De Mohrenschildts and your relationships with them and who these various De Mohrenschildts are?
Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, I will go back time-wise and bring you up.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia, I believe in Georgia. This is, of course,


all what I had been told for a while here. He was born in Russia and I believe he went to the----
Mr. JENNER. Now, this is what you were told and heard while you were----
Mr. TAYLOR. Married to his daughter.
Mr. JENNER. His daughter. And this comes by way of conversations over a long period of time?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. He was born in Russia, and, I believe, to a titled family. He claimed for himself the title of Baron. Original name. was yon Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] v-o-n?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And that he came to this country--when, I'm not sure, but certainly prior to 1939 when he was associated with the University of Texas in the capacity of instructor or professor in their Geology Department. And he married my former wife's mother in New York City.
Mr. JENNER. Repeat the names, please.
Mr. TAYLOR. He married my former wife, Alex's, mother--the present Mrs. Brandel--in New York City.
Mr. JENNER. And was it your information that that was his first wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, that was his first wife.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. They married approximately 3 months before she was born.
Mr. JENNER. Before your wife was born?
Mr. TAYLOR. Before my wife was born, and that their divorce came rather quickly after she was born. And, from that time until he married the wife, Dee or Dee Dee, my knowledge of him is rather sketchy. I know that, at least, part of the time they were married he resided in Dallas, was evidently well-established in business here, and owned a home which, I believe, he had built to his own plans--and was generally well-accepted here in the business community. And then he gets a little vague---at least to my knowledge after that until 1958 or 1959 when I first met him--1958, I'm sure.
Mr. JENNER, Was he then married?
Mr. TAYLOR. He was then not married, to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. He was living with the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt but they were not married; also living with them was her daughter, Christiana or Chris or Jeanne, Jr.--whatever the particular alias she felt like at the moment. And I met them through her.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "her," which----
Mr. TAYLOR. Through Christiana, Jeanne's daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Whom you subsequently married?
Mr. TAYLOR. No. This would be the half-sister. I guess it is a half-sister of my wife's.
Mr. JENNER. All right. We should say, at this point, your former wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. My former wife. This sure is involved.
Mr. JENNER. You are doing all right. Go ahead.
Mr. TAYLOR. And I met Christiana through a mutual girl friend and we dated over a period of a few weeks and then she left Dallas and started attending U.C.L.A. as a student, and I don't believe I saw her any more until--uh--May or June of 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Was the mutual friend through whom you became acquainted a Nancy Tilton?
Mr. TAYLOR. No, no; the mutual friend was a girl named Judy Mandel, of Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Nancy Tilton familiar to you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who is she?
Mr. TAYLOR. She is a cousin of my wife at that time.
Mr. JENNER. And your wife's name was Alexandra?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. At any rate, I met--uh--at this time, I asked Chris out on a date and she


said that she had her little sister--I think is the way she termed it at that time--visiting her, and could I find someone for her to go out with at the same time. And I did that, and I think we went out---couples of four, or two couples--on two occasions. And then I started dating the younger of the girls, which was Alex. And, during this time, why, I was in or around their home for a whole summer--in fact, until the time we married, and quite intimate with the whole family. Does that bring it chronologically up to date--or would you like the otherwise?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't know what the "otherwise" is.
Mr. TAYLOR. I skipped Mrs. Brandel in this, I think. They were married, as I mentioned, in New York City approximately 3 months before my former wife was born and divorced shortly thereafter. And he stayed away--or stayed in the background of Alex's life until 1958 when he and Mrs. Brandel, his former wife and Alex's mother went into court and sued the previously mentioned Mrs. Tilton for her custody. When Alex was born, Mrs. Tilton paid by check, which I saw, Mrs. Brandel $5,000 for custody of the daughter, Alex; and they had to go into court and get this custody set aside at which time the daughter went to Paris and lived with Mrs. Brandel, where she lived at that time.
Mr. JENNER. The daughter--this is Christiana?
Mr. TAYLOR. We're talking still about my former wife, Alex.
Mr. JENNER. Your former wife lived in Paris?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; my former wife, after the custody suit, was taken to Paris by her mother where she lived until the spring of 1959, when I met her.
Mr. JENNER. Now, while she was in Paris, were you dating Christiana?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; however, I was not even aware of Alex's existence until I met her that evening, as previously described.
Mr. JENNER. Have you information as to where Jeanne was born?
Mr. TAYLOR. In China.
Mr. JENNER. That's the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. My knowledge of her is that--uh--it's rather sketchy, because that's all my former wife knew of her. She was born in China. I believe her parentage, at least on one side, was Russian. She claimed that, at any rate. And she traveled through her late teens and early twenties--I don't know exactly how long--with her former husband, Mr. Bogovallenskia, as ballet performers.
Mr. JENNER. I see. I have a spelling of that name, Mr. Taylor, which is B-o- g-o-v-a-l-l-e-n-s-k-i-a [spelling].
Mr. TAYLOR. That may be more correct. This is phonetic here that I have [referring to paper].
Mr. JENNER. Is that a maiden name or a married name?
Mr. TAYLOR. That is her married name--Jeanne's married name to----
Mr. JENNER. Is Jeanne the same as Christiana?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; Jeanne is the mother. Christiana is the daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. That is the name of Christiana's father and the man I was just saying that Jeanne traveled with as ballet performers in China. All of the press clippings I saw, I think, were prior to World War II. And, as far as Mr. Bogo---as far as Chris' father is concerned, he was in Dallas during 1959 or 1960 and--uh--he had severe mental problems and Chris returned with him to California where, the last I heard, he was resident of a State mental hospital.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. And Chris is now married to a gentleman whose given name is Ragnar [spelling] R-a-g-n-a-r, but you don't recall his surname?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I do not. My memory is rather vague, but it seems to me like, in connection with his name, that his father is either a vice president or is the executive vice president of Hughes Aircraft. I don't know anything about him other than that except I was told he is a physicist, as Chris' father is, and he is a rather unusual character to meet and to know--being somewhat of a beatnik. But, at least, he seems to, when he


works, be able to make an awful lot of money and he must have money because they--Ragnar and Chris--honeymooned on a yacht that he owned, and to my knowledge, since he has not worked--which is a period of 2 years.
Mr. JENNER. Does George De Mohrenschildt have a brother?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What's his name?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he uses George De Mohrenschildt's original name of Von Mohrenschildt. He is a professor at an ivy league university--Cambridge, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Well, Cambridge would be Harvard. What about Princeton? What about Dartmouth? Columbia? Brown? Cornell?
Mr. TAYLOR. At the moment, I don't remember. I should remember.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I never met him. I believe I talked to him on the telephone. He passed through Dallas and called. I just talked to him briefly on the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your impression of De Mohrenschildt. First, describe him. What kind of personality is he?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he is a rather overbearing personality; somewhat boisterous in nature and easily changeable moods--anywhere from extreme friendliness to downright dislike just like turning on and off a light.
Mr. JENNER. What about his physical characteristics? Large, small, handsome, or otherwise?
Mr. TAYLOR. He's a large man, in height he's only about 6'2" but he's a very powerfully built man, like a boxer.
Mr. JENNER. Athletic?
Mr. TAYLOR. He is athletic. And he has a very big chest, which makes him appear to be very much bigger than he actually is.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Taylor, do you know Mr. Liebeler? Mr. Liebeler is a member of the staff.
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't believe I do. My letter told me that he would contact me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Give me a little more about the personality of George De Mohrenschildt's--and I think I'm about ready to let you go home.
Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that he has an inflammable personality. And he's very likable, when he wants to be, and he oftentimes uses this to get something he wants, put a person in a good mood and then, by doing this, he tries to then drag whatever it is that he wants out of them.
Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I would say that they lead a somewhat Bohemian life. The furnishings in their home somewhat show this.
Mr. JENNER. Is he unconventional in dress?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; oftentimes wearing merely bathing trunks, and things like this, that--for a man of his age, which is about 50 to 52---is a little unusual.
Mr. JENNER. You mean out on the street?
Mr. TAYLOR. On the street, as a constant apparel. He does not often work. In fact, during the times that I was married to his daughter, I have not known of him to hold any kind of a position for which he received monetary remuneration. So, as a result, why, he could spend his time at his favorite sport, which is tennis. And this could be in 32 degrees weather in the bathing shorts I mentioned--only.
Mr. JENNER. On any time during the week?
Mr. TAYLOR. Any time during the week. They have always owned convertibles and they would ride in them in all kinds of weather with the top down. They are very active, outdoor sort of people.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "they," you mean he and his present wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Is she unconventional at times in her attire in the respects you have indicated in regards to him?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; very similar.
Mr. JENNER. She, likewise, wears a bathing suit out on the street, does she?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; quite a bit. And usually a Bikini.
Mr. JENNER. What about his political philosophy?


Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, that's---uh--I have heard them say everything--from saying that he was a Republican and she expressed democratic ideals, and they expressed desires to return to Russia and live---so, it's all colors of the spectrum. Anything that--again, so much of what they do is what fits the moment. Whatever fits their designs or desires at the moment is the way they do it.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. When did you marry your present wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. In--let's see---on November 21, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Your present wife?
Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, I'm sorry. That was Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter that I married on that date. We married on September 28, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence from either of the De Mohrenschildts in which there have been any allusions to the assassination of President Kennedy or to either of the Oswalds?
Mr. TAYLOR. I have not personally received any correspondence at all from them. My parents have received correspondence from them---none of which mentioned--I take that back--in one case, the assassination was mentioned in passing; and the Oswalds were not mentioned in specifics.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, your parents are acquainted with the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And does that acquaintance go back prior to your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; that acquaintance was after Alex and I got married.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, we have had some discussions off the record. I will ask you first--is there anything you would like to add that occurs to you that you think might be helpful--as an occurrence having taken place or even general thoughts on your part--to the Commission in this important investigation it has undertaken?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, the only thing that occurred to me was that--uh--and I guess it was from the beginning--that if there was any assistance or plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. On what do you base that?
Mr. TAYLOR. I base that on--uh--their desire, first of all, to---uh--return to Russia at one time and live there; uh--they have traveled together behind the Iron Curtain; uh--they took a trip to Mexico, through Mexico, on the avowed purpose of walking from Laredo, Tex., to the tip of South America--
Mr. JENNER. Panama?
Mr. TAYLOR. And---
Mr. JENNER. On beyond that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Beyond--to the tip of South America--the southern tip of South America.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--and this they claim to have done, yet further information indicated to me that their trip extended only to the portion of South America where the Cuban refugees were being trained to invade Cuba and that this trip coincided and that they were in the area while all this training was going on. And, so, from that--from these observations----
Mr. JENNER. Do you conclude that they were attempting to spy on that invasion preparation?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; because where--they went to Guatemala where the invasion troops were being trained, or they were in Guatemala when they were supposed to be on a walking trip, and had taken up residence in the unoccupied home of some acquaintances there and--unbeknowing to anyone and when these acquaintances returned----
Mr. JENNER. This was the trip during the time you were married to their daughter?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are basing this information on communications from them, conversations with your wife, conversations that occurred after they returned?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; and to clarify it on the last point here, about them being in Guatemala, in conversations with Nancy Tilton.


Mr. JENNER. Yes; I asked you about her. Who is Nancy Tilton?
Mr. TAYLOR. Nancy Tilton is the cousin who brought up my former wife, Alex, after she was born. Her mother never took her from the hospital. This Mrs. Tilton did. And on a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home, the people----
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tilton reared her?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to age 14. On a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home----
Mr. JENNER. Where is that?
Mr. TAYLOR. In Tubac, Ariz. Uh--Mrs. Tilton remarked that some friends of hers, the people in question in Guatemala, had found them living in their home----
Mr. JENNER. Had found the De Mohrenschildts there?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, living in their home in Guatemala and had forcefully evicted them from it.
Mr. JENNER. That the Tiltons had forcefully evicted the De Mohrenschildts from the Tilton home in Guatemala?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; it isn't the Tiltons' home in Guatemala. It was a friend of the Tiltons. I don't remember their names.
Mr. JENNER. Well, who was evicted? The De Mohrenschildts or the people who owned the house?
Mr. TAYLOR. The De Mohrenschildts were evicted when the people who owned it returned.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you gather from that that they had not had advance permission to occupy that home?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. They had not had advance permission and had occupied it for a period of about 3 weeks--as best the people who evicted them could determine from what was eaten and--
Mr. JENNER In other words, they were trespassing?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. (Off the record discussion follows.)
Mr. JENNER. You are basing your comment with respect to the De Mohrenschildts' possible involvement, if there was any involvement by anyone else with Oswald which you have already stated and you are stating the reasons why. And you have related the walking trip down through Mexico to the tip of South America. This was at the time of the training of Cuban refugees for a possible invasion of Cuba. And it was during the period of time in which you were married to the De Mohrenschildts' daughter?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And now you have made a remark that we didn't quite get. What was that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Are you speaking of what I said off the record?
Mr. TAYLOR. I summed it up by saying that--uh--there was an indication here that they had been in an area where some spying or information-gathering might be valuable to Communist interests. They had expressed a desire to live in a Communist country; and that they had traveled extensively through Communist countries.
Mr. JENNER. What countries?
Mr. TAYLOR. Poland and Hungary--no; I'm sorry. Poland and Czechoslovakia. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt told me one time that he had met Marshal Tito.
Mr. JENNER. In Yugoslavia?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did they make any trips to Europe during the period that you were married to their daughter?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; they did not. These trips were prior to our marriage. However, I had seen photographs and had some pointed out to me in the family album--photographs of them in various Communist countries.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Where does your former wife, Alexandra, now live if you know?
Mr. TAYLOR. In Wingdale, N.Y.
Mr. JENNER. Is she married?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.


Mr. JENNER. What's her husband's name?
Mr. TAYLOR. Gibson. I only know him as Don Gibson.
Mr. JENNER. What business is he in?
Mr. TAYLOR. I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. Where does Christiana reside if you know?
Mr. TAYLOR. To my knowledge, they have not had a fixed residence since they married. My last communication from the De Mohrenschildts said that they were on their way to Europe and I don't know anything other than that.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything in addition to what you have already said that you would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Commission--that would open avenues for further investigation or give us directly information that might be helpful?
Mr. JENNER. We have been off the record once or twice, Mr. Taylor. Is there anything that you now can recall that you related to me off the record that is pertinent here or, at least, that you might think is pertinent, that I have failed to bring out?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; there is nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that was stated in your off the record statements that you regard as inconsistent with any statement you said on the record?
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have the right to read this deposition if you wish. It will be ready sometime next week. You may communicate with me or Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and come in and read it and make any corrections, if you think any are warranted, make any additions if you think any are warranted, and sign it if you desire and prefer to sign it. You have all of those rights. You also have the right to waive that if you see fit.
Mr. TAYLOR. For the sake of accuracy, I would like to read it.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You call, I would suggest--this is a rather long deposition--about Wednesday of next week.
Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Barefoot's an old friend. I'll call him.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. It's much longer that I had anticipated--but you were very helpful and thanks for coming here despite the inconvenience.
Mr. TAYLOR. That's quite all right. I hope I was of some help.

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