Missing Minox or Major Mistakes?

When Dallas Police officers searched the home of Ruth Paine on the weekend of the assassination of John F. Kennedy did they find a small Minox camera that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald? The Dallas police said yes, but the Federal Bureau of Investigation said no.

Documents indicate that the Dallas police did indeed find this camera, but the FBI claims there is no camera in the complete inventory of items that the Dallas police gave them, but there was a Minox light meter, so the DPD must have mistook the light meter for a camera.

Conspiracy minded individuals believe that it is obvious that someone has tampered with this evidence, but could there possibly be a less sinister explanation? What does a detailed review of the evidence indicate?

The Friday Search

On Friday November 22, 1963, the Dallas Police discovered that Lee Harvey Oswald had been living on the weekends with a friend named Ruth Paine in Irving Texas. Dallas Detectives Guy Rose, Richard Stovall, and John Adamcik were the Dallas Police officers dispatched to the Paine's residence. They were met at the Paine residence by Harry Weatherford, E.R. Walthers, and J.L. Oxford of the county Sheriff's Department. With Ruth Paine's permission the detectives conducted a search of the Paine's home and garage. It was during this search that the police discovered the blanket that had at one time supposedly contained the rifle that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald. There was also some photographic equipment and other items confiscated by the Dallas Police during this search.

The property lists and photos

A hand written list created by the DPD detectives on the 23rd shows:
"1 - Small German Camera and black case on chain and film":

The typewritten copy of this list was submitted by detective Stovall during his Warren Commission Testimony and labeled Stovall Exhibit A includes this same item.

The photo above and the enlargements below are from the Dallas Police Department, R.W. "Rusty" Livingston Collection/The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza and are used by permission. It shows the evidence taken from the Paine house. There is a card in the photo describing it as "given Dallas PD by Ruth Paine and Mrs. Oswald Paine's residence Irving Tex. 11/22/63. Conspiracy minded authors like Gus Savage claims that a Minox camera is visible in the photo, The photograph actually shows a Minox camera case only and a Minox light meter.

In the blowups we can see the item in the lower part of the picture is definitely a Minox light meter, This light meter is not on the original DPD inventory list. The item in the top part of the photo is a Minox camera case, but there is no camera inside the case. The nature of the Minox case is such that if the top were opened to the extent that it is, the camera would be visible in the case.

Some may claim that the presence of the the chain coming out of the bottom of the case that the camera must be inside the case, but the Minox camera is unique in this sense.

In the above photo you can see a large connector that attaches the chain to the camera. Due to the large size of the connector relative to the small whole in the camera case, the chain can not be removed from the case. Therefore the presence of the chain in the photo is not proof that the camera is in the case.

The Saturday Search

On Saturday, the Dallas Police decided to conduct a second search of the Paine residence. Detective Stovall, Rose, Adamcik and Moore all were involved in this search, along with Detective McCabe of the Irving Police Department. This time they obtained a search warrant. A typewritten copy of the list of the items taken on 11/23/63, Stovall Exhibit B, does not include any cameras.

Inventory Lists

Before turning over the items retrieved from the Paine residence to the FBI, the Dallas Police created a log book of the evidence. The log book also showed that they turned over a Minox camera to the FBI:

On November 26th the Dallas police allowed the FBI to take the items that had been recovered from the Paine home, and a Joint FBI/DPD inventory of the items was signed by FBI Agent Warren DeBrueys. At this time the items were numbered and photographed, unfortunately efforts to locate this set of photographs have been unsuccessful.

Item 375 on Property report G-11192 dated November 26, 1963 shows "One Minox camera; one pedometer; one compass; one camera self timer; one lens in hood; one 15 power telescope; Wollensak; one stereo viewer; one pocket knife in leather container":

Item 377 on Property report G-11193 dated November 26, 1963 shows "two rolls apparently exposed Minox film":

The FBI vs. The Dallas Police Department

When all of the items arrived in Washington, the FBI was unable to find the Minox camera referred to in the joint FBI/DPD property list. They found a Minox light meter among the possessions sent to Washington, but there was no light meter listed on the FBI/DPD property list.

According to his later House select committee testimony Gus Rose claims the FBI told him that he had made a mistake, and he had not found a Minox camera, but a Minox light Meter, but he disagreed with them, and held to his belief that he had found a camera. The FBI also contacted Dallas Police property manager H. W. Hill, who complied with their request and made the notation of Minox light meter in place of Minox camera on the property invoice.

The discrepancy was still an issue. By using a memo dated 1/28/64 FBI #105-82555-1643, it can be determined that on January 27, 1964, Mr. William A. Branigan, Chief of the FBI's espionage section, telephoned SAC Gordon Shanklin in Dallas to point out the inconsistency in the inventory lists. Branigan also advised Shanklin that the FBI Lab in Washington did not have the Minox camera in its possession. On January 28, 1964, Shanklin responded by advising FBI Inspector Moore of the FBI Lab that no such Minox camera had been found-only a Minox light meter.

The FBI gets a Minox

By January 30, 1964 the confusion over the Minox Camera had made it all the way to J. Edgar Hoover. In a 1/30/64 teletype to the Dallas SAC Hoover writes:

Property clerk's invoice or receipt, police department. Dallas, November twenty six, one nine six three, number one one nine two G, shows Homicide Bureau turned in to property clerk one Minox camera voluntarily given by Ruth Paine and Mrs. Oswald at Paine's Residence November twenty two, one nine six three. Bureau laboratory did not receive Minox camera. Laboratory presently maintains a Minox light meter, two Minox cassettes parenthesis one containing end parenthesis, two containers with exposed Minox film and Minox camera case. Question where is Minox Camera.

Dallas requested conduct immediate investigation to resolve same. If necessary, interview Dallas Police representatives, Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald.

The Dallas office moved quickly and contacted Michael Paine. SA Bardwell Odum reported on this contact on January 31, 1964 in document FBI DL 100-10461

He {Paine} owns a Minox camera and that camera is at his home in Irving, Texas. Several years ago he dropped this camera in salt water off the coast of Cape Cod, Massachusetts, and after retrieving it, soaking it in kerosine and cleaning same, it appeared to be in good working condition. Thereafter, someone bent the shutter by pulling the lens out too far, and, to the best of his knowledge, it is not now in working condition. He stated that he did have some cans of film, and that some of them were probably exposed film, but that the pictures made on this film were at least five years old. He stated that he had a case for the camera and other accessories including a light meter. He stated that when the police came to his house on November 22, 1963, they took the entire contents on a drawer containing photographic equipment which included the items mentioned above with the exception of the camera. He stated that this camera was in his garage at that time and that although he mentioned the camera to the police, they did not seem interested in it. He stated that he is sure LEE HARVEY OSWALD never used this camera, and he is of the opinion that it is not in working condition at the present time. Mr. Paine stated he had no knowledge of a 'no admittance' sign which was picked-up by the police at his residence. He stated this sign is not his and he has never seen it before.

Odum then reported turning over to the FBI on January 31, 1964 A Minox III camera, serial number 27259 that he received from Ruth Paine, which was given the designation D-80.

The above documentation confirms the serial number reported by the FBI. It also indicates that Michael Paine had made the camera available, that the film for the camera had been taken in the earlier search, and that any exposures on that film would have been made at least five years earlier.

The serial number reported by the FBI is controversial for several reasons. This camera is purported to be in the National Archives today, but the camera has been damaged and can not be opened. The serial number can only be viewed when the camera is open. The question then is how did the FBI report a serial number, when the number can not be seen. In addition the Minox III was a newer version of the Minox II. The serial number for the Minox II from 20379 to 31500 while Model III serial numbers started with 31275 and ended with 58499, so the 27259 number can not be the number on a model III. The question then becomes where did the FBI get this 27259 serial number?

In June of 1964 the FBI returned some of the property taken from the Paine home back to the Paines. Although Michael Paine had reportedly claimed that his Minox was returned to him, he insists today that the camera was not among the items returned to him. A letter from J. Edgar Hoover to the Dallas SAC instructing that these items be turned over to DPD for release to Ruth Paine does include both the Minox camera case, and Minox light meter, but not the Minox camera. The items were returned to Ruth Paine on 8/12/64 by G.W. Hill of DPD property department and an invoice was signed by Ruth Paine.

A thought provoking FBI report

The preceding report from the Washington Laboratory of the FBI has been used as proof that a Minox camera was taken from the Paine residence and secretly sent to Washington. The Report begins "Bureau request 11/25/63", but on November 25, the Dallas police reportedly still had all of the items taken from the Paine residence, with the exception of the blanket found in the garage. The rest of the property was turned over to the FBI on November 26th. The report also mentions a specimen Q5. Could Q5 be a roll of film taken from the Paine residence that has never been seen again? Is this proof of a plot to hide evidence? Let's take a closer look at the report.

The report is actually dated December 4, 1963, one week after November 26th when the FBI took custody of all of the evidence from the Dallas Police. The report only discusses film, and makes no mention of a camera.

The report is addressed to the New York division of the FBI and is in regards to LOCFAB ESP - R. LOCFAB ESP-R stands for LOCATION FOREIGN AGENTS BUREAU ESPIONAGE RUSSIA. This report discusses a roll of film "labeled specimen Q5 in this case", and they wanted to compare that film to the film that they believed was recovered from the possessions of Lee Harvey Oswald in the item 377 in the "Dallas, Texas Case". The problem is "this case" is never specified. It certainly could be referring to a case of the New York Bureau.

The logical explanation here is that someone in the New York division of the FBI had an open case with a roll of Minox film labled Q-5. When that individual heard that Minox film had been recovered from Oswald's residence they wanted to compare the film recovered in Dallas to this other roll to see if Oswald could be tied to an open espionage case.

The House Select Committee on Assassinations Investigates

Gus Rose, the Dallas Police officer who had always insisted that he found a Minox camera on the weekend of the assassination gave a more detailed description of his discovery to the House select committee on Assassinations (HSCA):

MORIARTY - How many photographs and negatives did you find?
ROSE - We found quite, several photographs.
MORIARTY - I mean of him.
ROSE - Oh, of this particular, I don't recall but the one photograph and the negative. I don't recall seeing more than that but there may have been two. We looked through a lot of property and of course, we confiscated it, brought it in along with a whole lot of other property. All of the property we recovered from the residence, I initialed it, Stovall and I initialed it and dated it for evidence. Among the property we found a little Minox miniature camera and on checking it, it did have a little roll of film in it. Anyway, all of this property was later released to the F.B.I. All of it was released after Oswald was killed.
MORIARTY - Does that about cover it?
ROSE - That's just about it.


MORIARTY - I think we last talked about a Minox camera and some film in it being among the property.
ROSE - We found this camera and of course, we brought it and a whole lot of other property in, as possible evidence in the case. And uh, while we were marking the evidence for later identification by us to be used in evidence we did, Stovall and I, did take a close look at this Minox miniature camera and it did have a roll of film in it. As time passed and after the Warren Commission was appointed, uh, a couple of F.B.I. agents made three different trips to our office to talk to me about this camera. They said that after they had received all the property they found that I had made a mistake, and that that really wasn't a camera, it was a Minox light meter. However, as I told them at the time, I was sure that I had not made a mistake, it definitely was a camera and definitely did have film in it. However, they wanted me to change that in our property invoice to read Minox light meter and not read Minox camera. We never did change it. Uh, Captain Fritz instructed me if I was sure I was right not to make any changes in any reports, to stay with what was right.

Rose returned to this topic a little later:

MORIARTY - This Minox camera. Was that with Ruth Paine's camera equipment?
ROSE - No, it was in the sea bag.
MORIARTY - Oh, in the sea bag.
ROSE - Ruth Paine explained to me, she stood, she stood right there while we searched. And she explained that everything in that sea bag and a couple of boxes that were there was Oswald's and she never had any objection to any search of that. The only time she objected was when we searched her bedroom where a lot of her camera equipment was. She did not object when we searched Marina Oswald's bedroom, the one she used.
MORIARTY - Did Ruth Paine happen to see you take the Minox camera out of the sea bag? Did she make any comment about that?
ROSE - No, she never commented on it and I doubt that she remembers the specific items because there was a great number of items that we took out of there. We never made any mention of it at the time. The only thing we did make specific mention of was the photograph of Oswald where he was wearing a pistol and holding a rifle and newspaper.
MORIARTY - My bottom line question is if there was a consent search form, I'd like to see a copy of it or.
ROSE - Yeah, we did not have this form.
MORIARTY - O.k. I didn't think so but I wanted to check with you. Let's see. You're quite sure that this Minox camera was a camera. Did you open it up and see film in it, or. . (pause) This is a little, I'm not up on cameras myself. This is a little camera isn't it, the Minox?
ROSE - Very small. It's not any bigger than a half pack of cigarettes.
MORIARTY - Ok. I think I've seen pictures of it.
ROSE - And you kind of push it together to make it snap. It's not any bigger than a pack of cigarettes. And in this particular one, it did have a roll of film in it. And there's no question absolutely that it was a Minox miniature camera.
MORIARTY - And you initialed it.
ROSE - Yes I did.
MORIARTY - Do you remember where or how?
ROSE - Somewhere on the base of the camera I scratched my initials. So did Stovall.
MORIARTY - Very good. I assume that was all part of the property that was turned over to the F.B.I.
ROSE - Yes, it was. Now they later did come back and request that I change that on the invoice to read Minox light meter, but it definitely wasn't a light meter, it was a camera.
MORIARTY - Was that described as a Minox camera with film? As you recall?
ROSE - I don't recall.
MORIARTY - I may have a list here someplace in my briefcase. Hold on just a minute while I dig it out. I'll shut this off temporarily to save some tape.


MORIARTY - No, this is another list. So, if you'll just continue on this camera. Uh, either you described it with or without film on the list that we still need.
ROSE - Right. It will be listed as a Minox miniature camera, but I don't recall whether it mentioned whether or not it had film in it.
MORIARTY - But you did initial it.
ROSE - Stovall and I both. I put GFR and he put his initials, RS Stovall. Then all the property was initialed, including the paper property, letters, pictures, and all the property, we did initial it. It took several hours to initial all of it.
MORIARTY - Ok. Very good. Now, uh, do you recall the particular agents' names that visited you requesting that you change the description of this particular item?
ROSE - No, I don't. There were a lot of new agents in town at that time and these were some that I did not know, and I don't recall their names.

The problem with detective Rose's testimony is it is not consistent with the photograph of the evidence taken from the Paine residence, the inventory lists, or the other consistent testimony concerning the search. For the details of that testimony see Appendix A. All the testimony and inventory lists indicate that a Minox type camera was discovered in the Friday search, and the photograph of the evidence indicates that indeed a Minox camera case and a Minox light meter were taken on Friday night. Detective Rose testified to the HSCA that he retrieved the Minox camera from Oswald's seabag. In his own contemporary testimony to the Warren Commission many years earlier he stated that he searched Oswald's seabag on Saturday. If the Camera was not taken out of the seabag until Saturday, it can not be the same item listed as taken from the Paine residence on Friday.

On August 9, 1978 Marina Oswald Porter was deposed by the House Select Committee on Assassinations. She was shown two Minox cameras and the Imperial Reflex camera that had been labeled CE750 She was asked if she had ever seen them before. One of the cameras, a model III with no serial number, came from the National Archives, and was the Minox camera acquired from Michael Paine and labeled D-80 by the FBI. The other Minox, described as a model I, serial #S2339303:

Q. This exhibit here which is identified as FBI exhibit D-80, does this look familiar to you?
A. No.
Q. And this camera here which is a Minox 1 :3.5 F-15 millimeter with the serial No. S2339303, does this look familiar to you?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see any of the cameras before you in the possession of Lee?
A. I do not recall now at all the camera we used to have. The camera could be here but I would not recognize it at all.
Q. You just don't remember?
A. No.
Q. If I show you this camera which was Commission exhibit No. 750 and raise the top part so you can see there is a viewfinder and ask you just to look at the camera, would that refresh your recollection that that was the camera you allegedly took the photographs of Lee with?
A. Well, I honestly do not remember if I look straight at the object or look down.
Q. But seeing the camera today you still have no memory of what the camera looked like?
A. No; I am sorry I am unprofessional about it.
Q. Whatever your memory is, that is what we want to find out.
A. I definitely never saw that before.
Q. Which are you referring to?
A. These two little ones.
Q. The record should note that she is referring to the Minox camera which is D-80 and the other Minox camera which is identified on the record as Minox 1 :3.5.
A. And by that I mean in my possession or Lee's possession.
Q. You never saw a camera like that?
A. No.

While the fact that Marina Oswald never saw the Minox camera is not proof that Oswald did not own one, it is an indicator that Oswald kept his ownership of the camera a secret from her. This once again ties to the issue of the camera being found on Friday night. The Friday night search took mostly items from within the Paine residence. If Oswald was hiding the camera from Marina, why would he have allowed it to be lying around in the Paine home?


The case for evidence tampering is based on several things: the inventory lists, the HSCA testimony of Gus Rose, and the FBI Report with the November 25th request date. But all of these pieces of evidence create as many questions as answers, and leave one far from convinced that there was ever any Minox camera found in the Paine home the weekend of the assassination.

The strength of the inventory lists, is that there are two separate lists, and the both list a camera. The original DPD list lists a small German Camera and black case on chain and film, which is a perfect description of a Minox camera, and the joint FBI/DPD list actually mentions a Minox Camera. Conspiracy authors claim, "what is the likelihood of two different people making the exact same mistake?" but if there is a good reason why the mistake is made, it is not at all surprising that the same mistake would be made twice. In this case, the Minox light meter and case, and the Minox camera and case look very similar, so it is not unbelievable that two independent people could both mistake the light meter for a camera. In addition, the fact that the chain on the camera remains with the case when it is disconnected from the camera could lead someone to mistakenly believe the camera was inside an empty camera case.

If the Joint FBI/DPD inventory list is accurate then there is no question that a Minox camera was found in the search of the Paine residence, and that it was either lost or removed from evidence, most likely by the FBI. But the photo of the evidence taken by the DPD does not include a Minox camera, but a Minox light meter and a Minox camera case, are clearly visible. A tampering scenario that explains this would be extremely convoluted.

The camera and the case were listed in the original DPD list, but only the case is visible, so the camera but not the case has to disappear for the photograph. Also a light meter that is not on the DPD list at all has to appear from nowhere for the photo. After the photo is taken the FBI and DPD make their joint inventory list. The light meter has to disappear again along with the camera case, but the Minox camera itself would have to reappear for the FBI/DPD inventory list. Now on the way to the FBI in Washington, the camera has to disappear again, while the light meter and camera case have to reappear. If the assumption that the FBI made originally that the Minox light meter was mistaken for a camera is correct, then there would be no need for this convoluted scenario.

Another possible explanation is that the item listed on the Joint FBI/DPD inventory as a Minox camera, was just the Minox camera case without the camera. This would seem unlikely because the camera case would be noticeably lighter without a camera in it (but it is interesting that the Minox camera is listed with several other items on the joint FBI/DPD evidence list). Since one photograph was likely taken of this group of evidence, it is possible that this evidence was just photographed and inventoried in place instead of picked up and photographed individually. If that were the case, it would be easy for someone to see the Minox camera case, with the long chain hanging out of it, and assume there was a camera in the case. In fact, several conspiracy researchers have seen the photograph of the Minox camera case, and also made the mistaken assumption that the camera is in the case. By the time the case was actually picked up, it could easily have been forgotten that it was listed as a camera, and whoever placed it in the box with the rest of the evidence wasn't even worried about how much it should weigh.

If the HSCA testimony of Gus Rose that he retrieved a Minox camera from Oswald's sea bag is accurate, it would be undeniable that Oswald owned a Minox camera, and that camera has been removed from evidence, but Rose's testimony is full of inconsistencies.

In the first place, this testimony was given 15 years after the events that he described. This much time can certainly lead to false memories. Rose describes removing a Minox camera from Oswald's sea bag in the Paine garage, and the Warren Commission testimony of all the witnesses is unanimous in establishing that sea bag was not searched until Saturday November 23rd. (See Appendix A) When Stovall testified before the Warren Commission, he introduced the list of items that he claims were taken on Friday the 22nd, and that includes "1 Small German camera and black case on chain and film" which is a description that matches the Minox camera. Stovall's more contemporary testimony taken together with the written record support the finding of an item that could be a Minox camera on Friday, which means it could not have been taken from Oswald's sea bag as Rose testified to the HSCA, because that sea bag was not searched until Saturday.

If we assume that Rose's memory can be faulty on some issues, but that he is right about finding a Minox camera, he would have to have found it on Friday. But that means that the camera would have been found in the Paines home, and Marina Oswald's told the HSCA that she never saw a small camera like the Minox in Lee's possession. Furthermore, why would Lee Oswald leave this "spy camera" lying around the Paine residence if it was being used for some clandestine activities.

It has already been shown that the FBI memo dated December 4th is consistent with the time frame that the Washington bureau would have been able to test the Minox film taken from the Paine home. The date of the request is interesting though. How did the New York division now about film that was still in the possession of the Dallas Police? There is no documented answer to that question, but it certainly is not inconceivable that the story of the seized film had become wide spread by November 25th. Stovall testified that there were 2 FBI agents present when they created their inventories on Saturday, and James Hosty in his book, Assignment: Oswald, claims that he was first given access to the DPD evidence on the afternoon of the 25th, and that other FBI agents were there already when he got there. He also makes it clear that the FBI was already in the process of getting permission from the Dallas police to take custody of the material on the 25th, so a request by the New York bureau to do some tests of the film they were soon to receive is not extraordinary.

The other argument against tampering, would be the incredible luck that the person who was doing the tampering would had to have had in covering it up. Once it was discovered that Oswald's supposed Minox camera was missing, whoever did the tampering was lucky enough to be able to use the fact that Michael Paine also owned a Minox camera as a diversion from their tampering (just the odds that both Oswald and Paine would own the relatively uncommon Minox would be staggering). On top of that, they had the incredible luck that the DPD inventory just happened to exclude Michael Paine's Minox light meter so that the person who did the tampering had this amazing cover story of mistaken light meter for camera.

While it is impossible to prove that Oswald never owned a Minox camera, the case that he did is based on incomplete records, and 15 year old memories. There is no photographic record of this other Minox, and there are only two rolls of film listed as being taken from the Paine residence. Upon seeing all of the photographs developed from this film, Michael Paine has claimed that his camera had taken all of those photos. In that case it is unreasonable to accuse the FBI or anybody else of tampering with that evidence. Indeed, I have never heard a good case why somebody would have had such an urgent need resort to such criminal activity.

APPENDIX A - Testimony concerning the searches of the Paine residence

The Friday Search

This is how Ruth Paine Described the search in her Warren Commission Testimony:

Mrs. PAINE - I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least one package or two. I was very surprised.
Mr. JENNER - Did you say anything?
Mrs. PAINE - I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea that Lee might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't. They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests. They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds. Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the garage.
Mr. JENNER - How many police officers were there?
Mrs. PAINE - There were six altogether, and they were busy in various parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it--had looked into--she indicated the blanket roll on the floor.
Mr. JENNER - Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time?
Mrs. PAINE - She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the blanket roll.
Mr. JENNER - This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and I will just put it on the floor.
Mrs. PAINE - And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.
Mr. JENNER - Were you standing on the blanket when you advised--
Mrs. PAINE - When I translated. I then stepped off of it and the officer picked it up in the middle and it bent so.
Mr. JENNER - It hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand?
Mrs. PAINE - And at this moment I felt this man was in very deep trouble and may have done--

Later she further described what happened that afternoon:

As I came back, I noticed the officers carrying a number of things from the house, and I looked into the back of one of the cars. It was across the street from my house, and saw he had three cases of 78 records of mine, and I said, "You don't need those and I want to use them on Thanksgiving weekend. I have promised to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. I will need those records which are all folk dance records and I doubt that you might get them back at that time." And I said, "that is a 16 mm projector. You don't want that. It is mine." And he took me by the arm and he said, "We'd better get down to the station. We have wasted too much time as it is." And I said, "I want a list of what you are taking, please." Or perhaps that was before. As much answer as I ever got was "We'd better get to the station."

In testimony later taken at the Paine Residence Ruth gave more details of the search:

Mr. JENNER - Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right?
Mr. JENNER - Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina, or someone with the policeman?
Mrs. PAINE - I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who first entered. I would guess it had been myself.
Mr. JENNER - Had there been some conversation before you entered the garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a rifle located in the home?
Mrs. PAINE - There was no such discussion before we entered the garage.
Mr. JENNER - What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she?
Mrs. PAINE - Marina followed. They had asked to search--I told them that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the room where Marina was staying.
Mr. JENNER - Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back here at the garage entrance?
(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner, entering the garage.)
Mr. JENNER - I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many policemen were there?
Mrs. PAINE - Two or three.
Mr. JENNER - Two or three policemen walked into your garage?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And for what purpose?
Mrs. PAINE - To see what was in it.
Mr. JENNER - Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things were in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead garage door?
Mrs. PAINE - That's south instead of east.
Mr. JENNER - That's south, I'm sorry; you are right.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Was that garage door in place on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER - The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part, however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that----
Mrs. PAINE - [interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most of the Oswald things were located.
Mr. JENNER - All right. You got about what--halfway into the garage facing south?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Then, what happened?
Mrs. PAINE - Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a rifle or weapon, and I said, "No."

Detective Rose gave the following testimony about the Friday search:

Mr. BALL. How many men went out there?
Mr. ROSE. There was me, and Detective Adamcik and Detective Stovall, and on the way, we radioed and asked for a county unit to meet us, and we were met by Detectives Harry Weatherford, E.W. Walthers, and J.L. Oxford, detectives for the county CID--we waited about 40 minutes and they came and met us.
Mr. BALL. Did you have a search warrant?
Mr. ROSE. No; we didn't.
Mr. BALL. How did you get in the house?
Mr. ROSE. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could see the door was standing open--the front door was--and I could see two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She apparently recognized us--she said, "I've been expecting you all," and we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you to come out. Come right on in."
Mr. BALL. Did she say why she had been expecting you?
Mr. ROSE. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting happened. I knew there would be someone out."
Mr. BALL. You took part in the search, didn't you?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. What part did you take?
Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall went into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have." So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is." Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.
Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.
Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?
Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out from laying down and tied near the middle, I would say, with a cord and so I went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty--it didn't have the rifle in it.
Mr. BALL. You brought that in?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. What else did you see?
Mr. ROSE. I didn't make very much of a search of the garage at that time. I came back into the house and talked with Marina some more and talked with Ruth Paine some and was busy trying to make arrangements to get someone to come down and take care of Ruth Paine's children and Marina's children so I could bring them to the city hall and I did assist Stovall and Adamcik in this search, briefly--I didn't do too much.
Mr. BALL. Could I see the report there, please?
Mr. ROSE. Yes--I wrote that report shortly after the 24th--I believe it was around the 24th, but I don't remember for sure what date I wrote it. I wrote it from some notes that I had taken.
Mr. BALL. Now, after you were there for a little while, did Michael Paine come in?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; we had only been there a few minutes and we were in plain cars, so I don't know whether he knew we were there. He didn't appear to know we were there, and he walked up the sidewalk and just walked in the door without knocking, and I was standing just around the corner talking to Ruth Paine and she was standing in his view and he didn't see any of the officers--we were all out of sight at that time, and he walked in and he said, "I came to help you. Just as soon as I heard where it happened, I knew you would need some help." Then he apparently saw us and then he spoke to us.

Detective Stovall gave the following Testimony about the Friday search:

Mr. STOVALL. At that time we told her that we wanted to search the house. We explained to her that we did not have a search warrant but if she wanted us to get one we would, and she said, "That won't be necessary"--for us to come right on in, so we went on in the house and started to search out the house, and the part of the house that I searched was the front bedroom where Marina Oswald was staying. There are quite a few items on the list of property I have--I believe you have a copy of it. There are two that were taken out of that bedroom there---a bunch of camera equipment, for one thing.
Mr. BALL. Now, I want to go backward at the moment--have you identified that property from your list, and can you tell me what was the division of labor there between you officers when you were permitted to search the house, you went into the bedroom; who went with you?
Mr. STOVALL. I don't believe there was anybody went with me at the time I went in. I heard--I think Rose started to the back bedroom, which would be Ruth Paine's bedroom and Ruth Paine was standing there talking to him--I could hear her talking to him and she told him that Marina suggested that he look out into the garage and so they looked and they were out of my sight then.
Mr. BALL. You heard Ruth say to Rose that Marina had suggested he look in the garage?
Mr. BALL. Did you hear Ruth Paine tell him why Marina had made that suggestion--what her reasons for it were?
Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. So, you think that Rose went to the garage?
Mr. STOVALL Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did Adamcik do?
Mr. STOVALL. Well, Adamcik was out in the back. Now, before I went into the bedroom, I went to the back door and opened it and Adamcik and the two county officers came inside, but where Adamcik went, I couldn't tell you for sure. I know that he looked through some of the stuff in what I would call the den, which is adjoining the kitchen there.
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
Discussion between Counsel Ball and the Witness Stovall off the record.)
Mr. BALL. Getting back on the record.
Mr. STOVALL. Shortly after that, Rose came back in carrying this blanket, as well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open.
Mr. BALL. It was tied with what kind of material?
Mr. STOVALL. It was tied with a white cord, as well as I remember.
Mr. BALL. A white what?
Mr. STOVALL. A white twine--it was thicker than a kite twine that you see or use on kites--more like this they use for wrapping large packages and tying them and he showed me that end, of course, he told me----
Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?
Mr. STOVALL. He told me that when he went to the garage, Marina had pointed to the blanket there and she said something to Ruth Paine and Ruth Paine told him that that was where Lee kept his rifle.
Mr. BALL. And the search that you made was in Marina's bedroom?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, do you have a list of the articles that were taken from Marina's bedroom?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I do. I've got a list of all the articles we took from the house.
Mr. BALL. Give me that list first.
Mr. STOVALL. [Witness handed list to Counsel Ball.]
Mr. BALL. This list was made up by you men on the site or after you got back into the squad car?
Mr. STOVALL. No, this list was made the next day after we came back to work. This stuff was all put in boxes and put in the trunk of the car and put back in one of our interrogation rooms there.
Mr. BALL. And the next day you made a list of it, did you?
Mr. STOVALL Yes, Rose and I and there were two FBI agents that went over the property at the same time. We initialed the property, that is, we went over it--this list here.
Mr. BALL This list here?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, this list here is a list of the property taken.
Mr. BALL. A list of the property taken from Ruth Paine's home at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.?
Mr. STOVALL. That was on the 22d.
Mr. BALL. On the 22d at about 3:30 p.m.?
Mr. STOVALL. 3:30 or 4----somewhere in there.
Mr. BALL. I'll go into that later, and this was the list that was made up by you and Rose and two FBI agents the next day at the police department?
Mr. BALL. I'd like to have this marked as "
Stovall Exhibit A," and it consists of page 1 and page 2 for the deposition.
(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit No. A," for identification.)
Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, Detective Senkel, S-e-n-k-e-l [spelling] and Detective Potts were both there too.
Mr. BALL. Now, look at Exhibits A-1 and A-2 for the purpose of refreshing your memory, will you mark on that those items which you have found in Marina's bedroom--do you think you remember those?
Mr. STOVALL. [Marked instruments referred to.]
Mr. BALL. All right, after you check them, we will go over them and you can make an explanation for the record.
Mr. STOVALL. All right, fine.
Mr. BALL. Now, since we have gone back on the record--Exhibit A-1 and A-2 have been marked--have you marked those things which were taken from Marina's room?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You have an explanation to make as to certain of those, haven't you?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is that?
Mr. STOVALL. On this list here where it has 1963 Kodachrome transparent slides, you have it coded at the top, I have one brown pasteboard box filled with camera film slides. One of those, I believe, came out of the back room, which would be Ruth Paine's bedroom, and the other came out of the chest of drawers in Marina Oswald's bedroom, but I'm not sure which came from which place.
Mr. BALL. Do you know where the other articles that were on that list that have not been checked, were found?
Mr. STOVALL. Some of them I do, and some of them I'm not positive on.
Mr. BALL. Did you find them, or did some other officer find those other items--those other articles?
Mr. STOVALL. Well, it's hard to say. I don't remember for sure where these came from. I know that I went through the front bedroom there and when we started--I went to the back bedroom and looked at some of the stuff in there and Rose was also in there and Adamcik came in there too.
Mr. BALL. Give us, from your memory, then, the other articles that are not checked there? Take a look at them, and then tell us, if you can, from your memory, just where you found those articles.
Mr. STOVALL. There was one box of Kodaslides in the single name of Ruth Hyde, another yellow box of Kodaslides, single I'm not sure where they came from. I believe they came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. I have listed one book from Sears Tower slide projector.
Mr. BALL. You don't make a check on it if you didn't find it in Marina's bedroom.
Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I missed one up there when we checked them.
Mr. BALL. All right, very well.
Mr. STOVALL. That one, I'm not sure which bedroom it came from--I know it came from one of the bedrooms, but I don't know which one. I've got listed "one grey metal file box, which is 12 inches by 6 inches; youth pictures and literature." I've got, "One black and gray metal box 10 inches by 4 inches, letters, etc., one box brown Keystone projector." Let's stop just a minute and let me tell you about this. These two metal boxes came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. This Keystone projector came out of the closet in the hall. Then, I have listed, "Three brown metal boxes 12 inches by 4 inches containing phonograph records." They came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. I've got listed, "One Blue Check telephone index book (addresses)"--I'm not sure which bedroom that came from. And, I've got listed "One bracket (instruction for mounting)" and I believe that came out of Marina's bedroom--I'm not sure. The next is not checked and I'm not sure, but it is "1963 Kodachrome transparency slides," which I explained a while ago. The next one I don't have checked is "One envelope with women's book entitled 'Simplicity' ". I'm not sure which bedroom that came out of. Then I've got "One Russian book." We took several books from Marina's bedroom and I don't recall taking any books from Ruth Paine's bedroom, but I don't remember the particular ones--it's very possible I did, I can't be sure, but that's the last one I don't have checked.
Mr. BALL. Did you search any other part of the house besides Marina's bedroom?
Mr. STOVALL. I assisted in searching the back bedroom. I searched the hall closet and I also looked at several things in the living room and the kitchen and the den.
Mr. BALL. Did you search the garage?
Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that day, I did the next day.
Mr. BALL. Rose searched the garage that day?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; he was out in the garage. We were going over the stuff pretty hastily at that time that day.
Mr. BALL. How long were you there that day--how long were you there?
Mr. STOVALL. I would say for approximately 2 to 2 1/2 hours, if that long.

Detective Adamcik gave the following Testimony about the Friday search:

Mr. BELIN -Then what did you do?
Mr. ADAMCIK - Well, we started looking around the house, I think Detectives Rose and Stovall handled most of the interrogation. They asked the questions of Mrs. Paine, and Mrs. Oswald, after we found out who they were and I didn't do any interrogating at the time at all, I just sort of stood and listened, and we started looking around.
We asked them where Mr. Oswald was, and various things, and we looked around.
Mr. BELIN -What did Mrs. Oswald say about whether or not you could see her room?
Mr. ADAMCIK - She never did say anything at all. In fact, she showed us where the room was and showed us several things in the room.

And later:

Mr. BELIN -Did any of the officers take anything out of the house?
Mr. ADAMCIK - Yes; some of the other officers did.
Mr. BELIN -What did they take?
Mr. ADAMCIK - I don't recall. I believe they took some camera equipment. It might have been a movie camera or projector. I didn't take anything. I know they took some items.
Mr. BELIN - Anything else that you remember?
Mr. ADAMCIK - No; there weren't too many items the first day.

Buddy Walthers gave the following Testimony about the Friday search:

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and I took our officer, Harry Weatherford, and we met Officer Adamcik that works for the city and Officer Rose and another one of their officers, but I don't recall his name right now--at this address in Irving and when we went to the door, what turned out to be Mrs. Paine just as soon as we stepped on the porch, she said, "Come on in, we've been expecting you, and we didn't have any trouble at all--we just went right on in and stared asking her--at that time it didn't appear that her or Mrs. Oswald, or Marina, who came up carrying one of the babies in the living room--it didn't appear that they knew that Oswald had been arrested at all--the way they talked.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you account for the fact that Mrs. Paine said, "Come on in, we've been expecting you?"
Mr. WALTHERS. I don't know--to this day, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that's what she said?
Mr. WALTHERS. I know that's what she said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Paine said that?
Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir; she said, "Come on in, we have been expecting you."
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else there that heard her say that?
Mr. WALTHERS. I imagine all the officers on the porch did. I know Rose was trying to show her his credentials and she just pushed the screen open and said, "Come on in." Now, after we got inside and we were making a search of the house with their permission, they had no objection whatsoever. Mrs. Oswald couldn't speak much English and Mr. Rose was doing most of the questioning, the city officer. We were just--not actually knowing what we were looking for, just searching, and we went into the garage there and found this--I believe it was one of these things like soap comes in, a big pasteboard barrel and it had a lot of these little leaflets in it, "Freedom for Cuba" and they were gold color with black printing on them, and we found those and we also found a gray blanket with some red trim on it that had a string tied at one end that you could see the imprint of a gun, I mean where it had been wrapped in it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You could really see the imprint of the gun?
Mr. WALTHERS. You could see where it had been--it wasn't completely untied--one end had been untied and the other end had been left tied, that would be around the barrel and you could see where the gun had rested on the inside of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean by that, you could tell that from the way the thing had been tied?
Mr. WALTHERS. You could tell it from the way it was tied and the impression of where that barrel went up in it where it was tied, that a rifle had been tied in it, but what kind---you couldn't tell, but you could tell a rifle had been wrapped up in it, and then we found some little metal file cabinets---I don't know what kind you would call them---they would carry an 8 by 10 folder, all right, but with a single handle on top of it and the handle moves.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how many of them would you think there were?
Mr. WALTHERS. There were six or seven, I believe, and I put them all in the trunk of my car and we also found a box of pictures, a bunch of pictures that we taken. We didn't go to the trouble of looking at any of this stuff much---just more or less confiscated it at the time, and we looked at it there just like that, and then we took all this stuff and put it in the car and then Mrs. Paine got a phone number from Mrs. Oswald where you could call Lee Harvey Oswald in Oak Cliff. It was a Whitehall phone number, I believe, and they said they didn't know where he lived, but this was where they called him, and I called Sheriff Decker on the phone when I was there and gave him that number for the crisscross, so they could send some men to that house, which I think they did, but I didn't go myself. Then we put everybody in the car, the kids, Mrs. Oswald, and everyone---no; just a minute---before that, though, this Michael Paine or Mitchell Paine, whichever you call it, came home and I had understood from Mrs. Paine already that they weren't living together, that they were separated and he was supposed to be living in Grand Prairie and when he showed up I asked him what was his object in coming home. He said--well, after he had heard about the President's getting shot, he just decided he would take off and come home, and he arrived there while we were there.

And later he testified

Mr. WALTHERS. They were all put in the cars and we took them to Capt. Will Fritz' office along with the stuff we had confiscated, the files and the blanket and the other stuff, and I turned them over to Captain Fritz and left them and went back to my station.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was in these file cabinets?
Mr. WALTHERS. We didn't go through them at the scene. I do remember a letterhead--I can't describe it--I know we opened one of them and we seen what it was, that it was a lot of personal letters and stuff and a letterhead that this Paine fellow had told us about, and he said, "That's from the people he writes to in Russia"; he was talking about this letterhead we had pulled out and so I just pushed it all back down and shut it and took the whole works.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have been advised that some story has developed that at some point that when you went out there you found seven file cabinets full of cards that had the names on them of pro-Castro sympathizers or something of that kind, but you don't remember seeing any of them?
Mr. WALTHERS. Well, that could have been one, but I didn't see it.
Mr. LIEBELER. There certainly weren't any seven file cabinets with the stuff you got out there or anything like that?
Mr. WALTHERS. I picked up all of these file cabinets and what all of them contained, I don't know myself to this day.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I was sitting here listening to your story, I could see where that story might have come from--you mentioned the "Fair Play for Cuba" leaflets that were in a barrel.
Mr. WALTHERS. That's right--we got a stack of them out of that barrel, but things get all twisted around.

Michael Paine gave his recollections to the Friday afternoon search to the Warren commission in the following manner:

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, you mentioned before that after you arrived home you went into the garage when the police officers went into your garage. Was there any indication to you at that time that the garage had been previously searched by the police or anyone else?
Mr. PAINE - This I don't remember very well. But, as I remember, this was not the first time we had gone in there. I think, perhaps, they went into--I don't remember, but I don't think it was the first time they had gone in.
Mr. LIEBELER - You said when you did go into the garage, however, the blanket was there in the garage?
Mr. PAINE - I think it was. It was still there.
Mr. LIEBELER - Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said in respect of the blanket and search of the garage, as you say. Before you answer that question, let me ask you, did your wife go with you into the garage with the police officers?
Mr. PAINE - I think they were further in in the garage. I think I stayed--the band saw is fairly close to--there is an overhead door to the garage, and close to the under edge of that when it is pulled up. In other words, it is fairly close to the outside in the garage, and I think I stayed somewhat near the door entering the garage, which is the inside end of the garage.
Mr. LIEBELER - And your wife was with the police officers further in?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, I think she was.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was Marina Oswald there?
Mr. PAINE - Failure of recollection, I would say, yes. But it is a very fuzzy recollection.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell us where the blanket was found?
Mr. PAINE - It doesn't really make sense as to why they would still leave the blanket there, and these things would have been discussed at that time, but I kind of remember a kind of silhouette situation, a police officer either lifted up or kicked this blanket, which was in exactly the same location that the rifle, the package had been, underneath the saw and somewhat in the sawdust. And I think he put it back there. He may have asked me at that time, "Did you know what was in this?"
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember that?
Mr. PAINE - And that is why I think they asked me, it may have been as early as that, whether it was a rifle, "Do you think it could have been a rifle?" I don't remember how it was posed, but I probably answered when it was suggested, it was a rifle, and there they suggested it was a rifle, because they had already learned from Marina that he had had a rifle, and it had been, perhaps, had learned it had been in that blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know they had previously asked Marina about that?
Mr. PAINE - No; but I think--I'm just telling you my impressions here, very fuzzy impressions.
Mr. LIEBELER - Go ahead.
Mr. PAINE - My impression was that they asked me if I knew what was in this blanket, or he asked me, and then he asked me if it could be a rifle, and I probably responded, yes. It didn't take long once the rifle was suggested as the object to fit this puzzle together, this puzzle of the pieces that 1 had been trying to assemble in the package.
Mr. LIEBELER - What else happened?
Mr. PAINE - We went out of the garage, I don't think he took the blanket then even.
Mr. LIEBELER - This is the Dallas police officer?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, plainclothesman, wearing black hats; one of them had one of those Texas hats. He collected all the useless stuff in our house, he went around and collected all the files of Ruth, and a drawer of cameras, mostly belonging to me. I tried to tell him one of the files contained our music or something like that, and the more I suggested it, that he not bother taking those, the more insistent he was in taking those objects. So with the various boxes and piles of stuff, mostly of our stuff, we got in the car and went off, and he was quite irked that we had wasted quite enough time around there, he said, and Ruth was irked, and everybody was irked by it. He wouldn't let us be helpful, and thought we were he became angry when we tried to be helpful or something that we would suggest that he should do.

The Dallas Police officers also filed a SUPPLEMENTARY OFFENSE REPORT on 11/25 of the events that happened on the 22nd.

The Saturday Search

On Saturday The Dallas Police decided to conduct a second search of the Paine residence, Detective Stovall, Rose, Adamcik and Moore all were involved in this search, along with Detective McCabe of the Irving Police Department. This time they obtained a search warrant.

Rose testified to the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL. On Saturday morning you went out to Irving again?
Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. At this time you had a search warrant?
Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. What did you search on this day?
Mr. ROSE. We made a search of the garage, mainly, on this day since quite a bit of Lee Oswald's property was in the garage.
Mr. BALL. What did you find there?
Mr. ROSE. Well, I found two sea bags, three suitcases, and two cardboard boxes and all of them contained numerous items of property of Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Did you find some pictures?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; I found two negatives first that showed Lee Oswald holding a rifle in his hand, wearing a pistol at his hip, and right with those negatives I found a developed picture--I don't know what you call it, but anyway a picture that had been developed from the negative of him holding this rifle, and Detective McCabe was standing there and he found the other picture--of Oswald holding the rifle.
Mr. BALL. What color were the sea bags?
Mr. ROSE. I believe they were kind of an off white--I would call them--more of a greyish-white.
Mr. BALL. What about the suitcases?
Mr. ROSE. I don't remember the color of those suitcases. I know one of them was real worn.
Mr. BALL. But you brought that property back here into town, did you?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did.

Stovall testified to the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL. And did you knock on the door?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did, and Ruth Paine, I believe was the only one there at the time.
Mr. BALL. And what did you say and what did she say to you?
Mr. STOVALL. We told her that we returned, we wanted to, to make a further search of the house and we showed her the search warrant at the time, and I believe she said we didn't need that, to come on in and that we could search the house anytime we wanted to.
Mr. BALL. And did you search the house?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We mainly concentrated our search of the garage this time, because the first search of the garage had been a rather quick one, and not having been in the garage on the first search at all, and I know Rose hadn't spent much time out there because he didn't have time to on the length of time we spent at the house. So, we searched the garage and concentrated our search there. Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the only one there awhile ago--I remember Michael Paine was in the garage. I think he came up after we got there--I'm not sure it's possible that he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them and they left.
Mr. BALL Do you mean they left you in the garage?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, they got in the car and drove off. They left their house.
Mr. BALL You have made a report of what you did that day?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you have that before you, Mr. Stovall?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Have you refreshed your memory from the report?
Mr. STOVALL. I glanced over this--I've read this first and I haven't read this one.
Mr. BALL. Do you want to take some time to look over that report of your search on the 23d of November 1963?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You stayed in the garage how long?
Mr. STOVALL. It seems like we were in that garage about 1 1/2 or 2 hours. We might have been there longer than that. We made a thorough search of the garage.
Mr. BALL. Was there some reason you went out there the second time?
Mr. STOVALL. To the garage?
Mr. BALL. No, to the Paine home on the Irving Street address?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; the main reason we went out there we wanted to make a more thorough search of the place. The first search that--we didn't actually have time to stay as long as we needed to, to cheek the whole house.
Mr. BALL. Were you given any specific instructions by anyone from your department as to what to look for?
Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that I recall.
Mr. BALL Now, did you make a list of what you had found and took with you on that day?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.
Mr. BALL. Is this the list?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, it is.
Mr. BALL. And where was that made?
Mr. STOVALL. That was made down at the city hall in the Homicide Bureau.
Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as "Stovall Exhibit B."
(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit B," for identification.)
Mr. BALL. Now, at that time did you find any snapshots that appeared to be Oswald in the photograph?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; Rose did, and when he looked at them, he said, "Look at this." At the time he said that--he showed us the snapshots and the negatives to me.
Mr. BALL. Did they show you what appeared to be Oswald in the snapshots?
Mr. BALL. He had the negatives and snapshots?
Mr. BALL. And he showed Oswald--what was significant about the photograph?
Mr. STOVALL. He was in a standing position just outside of the house holding a rifle in one hand and he was wearing a pistol in a holster on his right hip and he was holding two papers in the other hand.
Mr. BALL. Did you take the snapshots?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we took the snapshots.
Mr. BALL. And the negatives?
Mr. BALL. Where are they listed on this exhibit--this Exhibit B?
Mr. STOVALL. I believe we listed them where we've got "Miscellaneous photographs and maps." There were several other photographs that we took when we were there.
Mr. BALL. They were in the garage, were they?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And where were they in the garage that you saw?
Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, they were in a brown cardboard box about, I guess, 2 feet by a foot and a half or something like that.
Mr. BALL. What was in the box with them?
Mr. STOVALL. There were, as well as I remember, a few books in there and letters and papers and photographs.
Mr. BALL. Now, you also found some bags, didn't you?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some seabags.
Mr. BALL. What color?
Mr. STOVALL. One of them was---I think both of them were a kind of an Army color---olive drab, whatever you call it.
Mr. BALL. And suitcases?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some blue suitcases and I think a brown one.
Mr. BALL. Made out of what kind of material?
Mr. STOVALL. It appeared to be a leather material.
Mr. BALL. You said there were three--you've mentioned blue and brown, is there any other color?
Mr. STOVALL. There was, as well as I remember---one of the brown ones was a leather appearing suitcase and the other was more of a--some kind of a paper or cardboard suitcase, as well as I remember that thing. It was partially torn, I mean, it had been well used and was coming apart.
Mr. BALL. And were there three?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what was the color of the third one?
Mr. STOVALL. I believe it was brown also.
Mr. BALL. Leather or paper or cardboard?
Mr. STOVALL. No; this was paper--it was some kind of a paper deal or cardboard.
Mr. BALL. Now, you also found a magazine advertisement from Klein's Department Store, Klein's in Chicago?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; that was in the same box with the photographs.
Mr. BALL. Just for illustration of your testimony, I would like to have marked as an exhibit to the deposition your report of the search of November 22, 1963, as your Exhibit No. C, and your report of the search of November 23, 1963, of the Paine residence as Exhibit No. D.
(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Stovall Exhibits C and D," for identification.)
Mr. BALL. You mention in there a map--what kind of map or maps did you find there?
Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall just what kind of maps they were.
Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?
Mr. STOVALL. Must have been around 4:30 or 5, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Did Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine say anything more to you than you have already told us?
Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; as well as I recall, Mr. and Mrs. Paine were both gone from the house when we left there.
Mr. BALL. You took these materials with you that you have on this list?
Mr. BALL. You took them down to where?
Mr. STOVALL. We took them down to our office.
Mr. BALL. And you made a list of them that day, did you?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Adamcik told the Warren commission:

Mr. ADAMCIK - Well, I went home, and about 10 or shortly before 10, I came in, and Captain Fritz asked Detectives Rose and Stovall; and Detective Moore----at this time he was a regular partner of Rose and Stovall----asked me, since I was there the previous day, to go along back to Mrs. Paine's house for a little more complete search.
Mr. BELIN -Did you have a search warrant at this time?
Mr. ADAMCIK - Yes; we stopped by and got a search warrant from Judge Joe B. Brown, Jr., over in Oak Cliff, and came by his house and picked up the search warrant.
Mr. BELIN -What did you do when you got to the house?
Mr. ADAMCIK - We got out to the house. I didn't have a search warrant. One of the other detectives did. They told us to come on in, and they were there. I remember at the time we came in, that they were going grocery shopping, and they left and just told us to look at anything we wanted to.

And later:

Mr. ADAMCIK - The second day we made a pretty complete search. We went mainly in the garage. We had also an Irving police officer. It was, I think, Detective McCabe from the Irving police department. And we went through the house and garage.
Mr. BELIN -What did you take with you?
Mr. ADAMCIK - Well, we picked up----I got a list of it, also, which we turned over to the FBI, but we picked up items such as letters and pictures and oh, just a whole bunch of items.

And later:

Mr. ADAMCIK - Well, no other than----I didn't even begin to tell you what all we found. It was books and pictures and they found some of his stuff from the Marine Corps when he was in the Marine Corps, and a lot of Russian, I think they were books on the Russian language, and some vaccination certificates and stuff like that.
A lot of stuff was written in Russian, and we didn't have any idea what it said. Even the letters, a lot of them were written in Russian.

Moore testified to the Warren Commission:

Mr. MOORE. I went out with Stovall and Rose and Adamcik to Irving later in the day to search the residence at Irving.
Mr. BELIN. Would that be 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving?
Mr. MOORE. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Had a search warrant for that?
Mr. MOORE. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You found several items there?
Mr. MOORE. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Made a list of those similar to this other list?
Mr. MOORE. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Do you remember any conversation you had out there with Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, or anyone else?
Mr. MOORE. When we arrived, they were preparing to leave and did leave. We had an Irving officer with us.
Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you to go ahead?
Mr. MOORE. Yes, they did; just go ahead and help ourselves. They said they would be back later, and I am not sure that they even returned before we left.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything particularly you found out there that stands out in your mind?
Mr. MOORE. Rose found the picture of Oswald holding the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Did Rose show it to you out there?
Mr. MOORE. Yes, he did; at the time he found it.
Mr. BELIN. Were you near him when he found it.
Mr. MOORE. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How far away was he from you?
Mr. MOORE. This was a one-car garage, and it would have to be close. Four men searching in that garage. I would say a matter of 3 or 4 feet.
Mr. BELIN. What did Rose say to you when he found it?
Mr. MOORE. He said, "Look at this." Of course we all looked and commented on it.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. MOORE. Well, we continued our search, and after we had completed it, we again brought everything that we had picked up to our office.
Mr. BELIN. You made another list of it?
Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Ruth Paine discussed the Saturday search in her Warren Commission Testimony. She said:

Mrs. PAINE - At my home. I would be certain of that. The Houston Post--well, yes. And Michael was there also, at least in the morning as I recall, and talked with these people. I believe the local paper, Irving News, was there. Then Michael, as I recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some shopping.
Mr. JENNER - He left your home?
Mrs. PAINE - Anyway, in the afternoon I was the only one there and I felt I had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what I could to the people who wanted to know. I was just preparing to go to the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the Dallas Police Office and asked if they could search. This time I was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if they could search and held up their warrant and I said, yes, they could search. They said they were looking for something specific and I said, "I want to go to the grocery store, I'll just go and you go ahead and do your searching." I then went to the grocery store and when I came back they had finished and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, I don't normally lock my door when I go shopping. "

In later testimony she also said:

Representative FORD - While you were shopping and after the officers had come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house?
Mrs. PAINE - For a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in the house.
Representative FORD - They were there alone?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. McCLOY - Did they indicate--were they still there when you got back?
Mrs. PAINE - No; they were not. Remember the door was locked.
Mr. McCLOY - Yes; the door was locked, that is what I gather. Do you know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they were coming for?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not. Before I left they were leafing through books to see if anything fell out but that is all I saw.

Michael Paine's memory of Saturday was fuzzy but he does not mention being at the Irving residence for the Saturday Search:

Mr. LIEBELER - Reconstruct for us the events of Saturday, November 23 as best you can. And perhaps I can help you if I ask you first, did you stay in your apartment in Grand Prairie the night of the assassination, the night of the 22d?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't think so. No, we had a late supper there, Life reporters , were there, and-----
Mr. LIEBELER - At Irving?
Mr. PAINE - At Irving, and then they came again early next morning and I was there with the family in the morning so I must have been there at night.
Mr. LIEBELER - And the Life reporters came on Saturday morning again?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - The 23d. What happened, how long did they stay and what happened after they left?
Mr. PAINE - Well, they left quite early, I think, it might have been 9 o'clock, relatively speaking, 9 or 9:30, talking to Marina Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did you do after they left?
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember. I think I went over to the Irving apartment, I mean the Grand Prairie apartment, at some time during the day, I don't remember what for. I had in mind, there was something I was trying to do, I can't remember now what it was, I mean something I would have been doing on the weekend. So, between, let's say, they left at 9:30, and about 5 o'clock, I don't remember what happened.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you go to your place of business at any time, to the Bell Helicopter plant on that day?
Mr. PAINE - Well, my apartment was close by it. I think somebody has asked me this question before and I think at the time I said no, and I don't remember now, that is my closest memory to that occasion.
Mr. LIEBELER - Your recollection is that you did not go to the helicopter plant?
Mr. PAINE - My recollection now is now fuzzier than ever but I recall previously I thought about it and I said, no.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you go to the police station in Dallas on Saturday?
Mr. PAINE - Yes. I recall the FBI came, not the FBI, the Dallas police came and took me in their car. We went back via Grand Prairie which was out of the way and the sun was about setting so that was about 5:30.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you come back to Irving after you left the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, probably 8 or 9 at night.

Appendix B - More Minox Information

Two web sites have presented the case for evidence tampering. Carol Hewett has laid out her case in an article entitled The Paines Participation in the Minox Camera Charade.

The Kennedy Assassination Research Page also has an article on this subject at http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/minox.htm

Dallas reporter Earl Golz wrote two articles on this issue at the time of the House Select Committee on assassinations.

Appendix C - The Hemming Photo's

Reportedly, Gerry Patrick Hemming has claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald did own a Minox when he was in the marines stationed at El Torro. Hemming claims that Oswald did not take the Minox with him when he went to the USSR. Hemming has also told researchers that the Minox camera found in Oswald's sea bag originally came from Life reporter Richard Billings, who later authored the HSCA report and co-authored Robert Blakey's The Plot to Kill the President. Billings gave the Minox to Hemming, who in turn gave the camera to Eddie Bayo, who disappeared with nine commandos while on a raid into Cuba. Hemming refused to speculate on how the Minox got from Bayo to Oswald. It has not been made clear how Hemming would know this information about Oswald.

Hemming is also tied to an unexplained piece of evidence in the National Archives. When a researcher requested HSCA record number 180-10108-1081 from the national archive they received the following cover sheet

RECORD NUMBER : 180-10108-10181
TO : [No To]
TITLE : [No Title]
DATE : 06/12/1978
PAGES : 32
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/28/1993
COMMENTS : Photocopies of photographs

The documents were photocopies of the photos apparently taken by Michael Paine with his Minox camera, but there also appears that someone was interested in doing some comparing.

The preceding copy shows how someone pasted two photos of Hemming next to a larger photo of a serviceman who might possibly resemble Hemming. Mike Paine reportedly has verified that he took the larger original photo, and that it is not Hemming, but it is unclear who created this comparison layout. The cover page indicates that this information came from the FBI, but it is uncertain why the FBI would be interested in making this comparison. On the other hand Hemming has been a source for a lot of conspiracy related material, and a photograph taken of him by Oswald would be valuable to a conspiracy minded author.

Appendix D - References

John P. Adamcik's Warren commission Testimony

Henry M. Moore's Warren commission Testimony

Marina Oswald Porter's HSCA testimony 9/20/77 and 8/9/78 Depositions, 9/13/78 Testimony 1, 9/13/78 testimony continued, 9/14/78 testimony

Michael Paine's Warren Commission Testimony - 3/17/64 deposition, 3/18/64, 7/23/64

Ruth Paine's Warren Commission Testimony - 3/18/64 & 3/19/64, 3/19/64 & 3/20/64, 3/20/64 & 3/23/64, 3/23/64, 3/24/64 Affidavit, 7/23/64

Guy F Rose's Warren Commission Testimony

Richard S. Stovall's Warren Commission Testimony

Eddie Raymond Walthers' Warren Commission Testimony